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Cover versions

[edit]

How about the ZZ Top version (on Deguello)? Jmattlandrum (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:COVERSONG - "When a song has renditions (recorded or performed) by more than one artist, discussion of a particular artist's rendition should be included in the song's article (never in a separate article), but only if at least one of the following applies:
  • the rendition is discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song,
  • the rendition itself meets the notability requirement at WP:NSONGS."
(My emphasis.) If neither of those conditions apply, there is no need to refer to cover versions in the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Recordings by other musicians

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The lead says that there have been "numerous renditions by a variety of musicians" - but, as a result of this unexplained edit in 2016 (which removed this source) the list that was previously in the article was removed. There needs to be a section in the article that covers and explains the song's status as "a blues standard, with numerous renditions by a variety of musicians" - which is now in the lead and I am quite sure is verifiable. That section needs to mention the most notable recordings by other musicians - not necessarily all of those in the previous list, but including those that are mentioned in reliable independent sources, and those that have made a national chart. Preferably, it should be in prose format, not a list. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article should "mention the most notable renditions by a variety of musicians". The problem is, none seem to meet WP:SONGCOVER, which provides two criteria for inclusion. If they are indeed "discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song" or "meets the notability requirement at WP:NSONGS", reliable sources need to be included which clearly show that these are met. One appearance in the Cashbox R&B chart (but not in the Billboard R&B or other singles charts) is not sufficient by itself to meet this. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:41, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did a quick google book search, but only found some album track listings that show a version by the Turners (mostly compilations by small labels & unclear if it's the same as the single). One was included on Outta Season (1969). AllMusic's album review doesn't mention it, but notes that the album "contained routine soul and R&B numbers sung with little variety or emotion by Turner, and produced and arranged with almost no variety or flair. It was more a collection of singles than an actual album, but was rushed out among the raft of Ike and Tina product that glutted the market. It has since been deleted, and deservedly so." —Ojorojo (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that Allmusic lists 675 separate versions of the song is notable in itself, I think (Secondhand Songs lists 100). The fact that the song is regarded as a "blues standard", mentioned in the lead, does need to be expanded upon, with a referenced section in the article, and where reliable independent sources discuss particular versions, those should be mentioned. Don't get me wrong - I would hate to see separate sections on particular cover versions, with infoboxes etc. !. My understanding of WP:SONGCOVER is that it is mainly aimed against the creation of separate sections for a cover version, rather than precluding any mention of other versions where they are mentioned in reliable sources (that is, separately from simple track listings etc.). So far as the Ike and Tina version is concerned, that seems to have made a Cash Box chart but not Billboard, and although I think summaries of Cash Box charts do exist, they are not easy to come by (in contrast to Joel Whitburn's books on the Billboard charts) - but, perhaps still worth mentioning briefly, within a wider prose section . Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Standards have usually been recorded by dozens if not hundreds of artists (AllMusic repeats a lot of artists). I think a reliably sourced statement to this effect is sufficient and propose to add one in an expanded "Recognition and legacy" section. Maybe Turner can be mentioned (in prose, not as a separate section), but I'm unsure if others are worth noting. Do you have any in mind? —Ojorojo (talk) 15:09, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the book Bill Wyman's Blues Odyssey (co-written with Richard Havers), there are two pages on the song (pp.338-339), which mention the versions by Koerner, Ray and Glover (1963, "probably the first white artists to record the song"), The Rising Sons (1965), Fleetwood Mac (1968), and Freddie King (1971, produced by Leon Russell). It also says: "During the 1960s and early 70s there was probably no blues or rock band that did not include "Dust My Broom" in their live set. Even in the early 1980s bearded Texas blues rockers Z Z Top regularly featured the song in their live shows.". There is more in the book - I should probably make more use of it as a good source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've used Wyman's book in the past, but only have access to a snippet, so I'll take your word on the quotes. How about:

"Dust My Broom" is a blues standard and is especially popular among slide guitarists.[Herzhaft p. 446; O'Neal BHOF induction] Besides early versions by bluesmen, including Arthur Crudup (1949) and Robert Jr. Lockwood (1951),[Herzhaft p.446] the song carried over to the 1960s folk and blues revival and the British rhythm and blues scene. In 1963, Koerner, Ray & Glover recorded the song, possibly making them the first white musicians to do so.[Wyman p.?] During the 1960s and 1970s, "Dust My Broom" was on the set lists of many blues and rock musicians.[Wyman p.?] Ike & Tina Turner recorded a version that was released as a single in 1966, which later reached number 54 on the U.S. Cash Box R&B chart in 1971.["R&B Top 60" (PDF). Cash Box: 24. October 9, 1971.] ZZ Top recorded the tune for their 1979 album Degüello and continued to perform it into the 1980s.[Wyman p.?]

I try to avoid adding names without any context, which usually only serves to attract more of the same. Moving away from the early "Other cover versions" example farms is definitely an improvement. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me - maybe add "including Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac" as one of the 60s bands who recorded it (on Mr Wonderful) - according to Wyman "it contains further lyric variations".. The Wyman ref would be: Wyman, Bill; Havers, Richard (2001). Bill Wyman's Blues Odyssey. London: Dorling Kindersley. p. 338-339. ISBN 0-7513-3442-1. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Twixister jumped the gun, so I went ahead and added the above paragraph. I'll add Fleetwood Mac tomorrow after I try to find more info. —Ojorojo (talk) 21:04, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good proposal. I had only seen the removal of Ike & Tina Turner's cover by Ojorojo which I added again before realizing there was a discussion about other recordings on the Talk page. I don't want it to seem like I was disregarding this discussion. It would've been helpful to mention the discussion in edit summary instead of just saying there's "no indication that it meets either of the two criteria of WP:SONGCOVER" when it does.Twixister (talk) 21:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
[R to Ghm] I couldn't find any usable info about FM's version other than DMB was another one of Spencer's Elmore tributes/parodies that recycles the slide riff. Other than the fact that it exists, do you have a suggestion on wording? [R to Twixister] I certainly didn't intend to leave you in the dark about this discussion; if you check the chronos, you'll see that Ghm started this discussion after my edit with summary to the article. You might want to add pages like this to your watchlist, so you'll be aware of talk page comments. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added Spencer/FM with refs. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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