Talk:Double bass/Archive 4

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Pruning Section

I don't believe it's neccisary to have a paragraph in here about Slam Stewart, Charles Mingus and Scott LaFaro. They contributed greatly, but their contributions can be covered on their page, not this page. This page should be about the bass and its function in music. Kntrabssi 23:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and that anon just added LaFaro. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 23:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Could we separate the DB page from the 'bass players' as were thinking of doing on the Bass guitar page. Maybe we could put all the bass players together on one page???? (light blue touch paper and retire immediately)--Light current 02:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. There should be a category page for bass players (If there isn't one already) and the information about them, as well as what they've done for the instrument should be listed on their page, not on the page about the instrument. Kntrabssi 04:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There is already a page for list of bass guitarists and Im not suggesting we put DB players there unless thers a lot of support for that move. However, Im not sure if there exists a page for DB players as yet--Light current 18:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

There should be a list page of notable double bassists which is seperate from the list of bass guitarists. The double bass page should be about the instrument and not the players. I'm going to remove all mentions to all bassists who aren't Simandl (because he developed the method that nearly all of us use today), Bottesini and Dragonetti (because of their influences on bows and the function of the instrument). Kntrabssi 19:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree 8-)--Light current 20:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Referring to the bass

We should have a consistent policy when referring to the bass in this article as far as the name goes. It may be confusing to call it the double bass in one part, the string bass in another and the contrabass in another. Since the title of this page is Double Bass, I propose that all references made to the instrument be Double Bass. Kntrabssi 17:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Double bass players(continued)

And another thing, there are already three articles about notable double bass players that are seperate from the bass guitarists page. I also agree that people except for historical figures should be removed (except for maybe gary karr or edgar meyer). — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 20:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Badagnani, if you read this section you will understand why I edited away the individual players I did in my last revision. Kntrabssi 21:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

As we've seen, we don't always agree, and I do not agree in this case. It "adds" nothing to a great article on the double bass and its uses to erase all mentions of highly significant players. Of course, we all agree that we don't want superfluous players or a huge list, but two or three of the finest exponents of a style (such as slapping or the use of double bass in a rock context) are very useful as Wikipedia is a web of links, and allows users to pursue interests through these links. By removing the names as you have done (to which I strongly object), these users are cut off from knowing about Soul Coughing's restoration of the double bass in a rock context, or finding out more about fine slap players. This is wrong, and, to my mind, shows a bias toward classical uses and against popular uses of the instrument by some editors -- as if the non-classical uses are somehow less valid or worthy of consideration. I wish that weren't the case. Badagnani 21:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This page is about the instrument itself, however. There are five or so lists of notable double bassists at the bottom of the page which readers can go to and find out about slap players and jazz players and bluegrass players, etc. The people we have left on here have actually changed the instrument and developed techniques, such as Franz Simandl. Mentioning of the Stray Cats and the Barenaked Ladies is not relevant to the evolution of the instrument and the details are more suitably put on their pages, not on this page. There is still mention of the basses evolution in popular music, it is just not neccissary to lists bands and players. I respect your opinion, however the consensus here has leaned on the conservative side. Kntrabssi 21:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Kntrabssi said: The people we have left on here have actually changed the instrument and developed techniques, such as Franz Simandl. Mentioning of the Stray Cats and the Barenaked Ladies is not relevant to the evolution of the instrument and the details are more suitably put on their pages, not on this page.

I do not agree at all with what you have written here. The instrument is a tool used by performers and it is not incorrect to discuss the instrument's use, and users, in context. Furthermore, it is quite mistaken to say that slap style is not a significant development in technique--it is a fairly revolutionary and highly developed technique. Even so, I do not agree that the mention of those groups is irrelevant to the article, and maintain that by removing these mentions we are cutting users unfamiliar with these important uses off from these links--quite a shame. What you have written, unfortunately, seems to bear out my guess that the bias is in favor of classical uses of the instrument -- that's really too bad. Please rethink before deleting in the future, especially when other skilled editors have thoughtfully and carefully added these selected details over a period of months, if not years. Badagnani 21:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Badagnani, I have tried nearly 7 times to civily talk to you about why these edits have been made. I have told you mutliple times that there has been a consensus reached on this, and that the contributions players have made towards the double bass should be listed at their page and not on a page about the instrument itself. I have also respected your opinion and even comprimised with you on the nicknames instance. What I have met time and time again has been nothing but hostility, incivility and condescension. That you do not agree with us is fine and well. However, to suggest that I am not a skilled editor because I have deleted something that Light Current and Bottesini have also agreed on is very much a Personal Attack, not only against me, but against the other two. I have told you that I respect your opinion about the matter. However, the community consensus has been reached and you are outvoted. I have been editing this article for over a year now myself, and have thusfar not ran into the hostility that you have shown me in the last few hours. You talk about a community project, yet you are not contributing to a community atmosphere. We understand your opinion. You have every right to disagree. However you have no right to begin insinuating things. This is no longer a discussion. Any more edits made to this page that violate this policy will be seen as vandalism. I want nothing more than for this to become a comfortable community and I can't help but feel as though you are not contributing to that. Kntrabssi 22:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, in my post just above I referred to "other skilled editors," which does not imply that you are not one of these. Badagnani 23:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if anything I have said comes across as uncivil, but actions (specifically the selective deletions of other editors' content) speaks for itself. Conversely, your recent comments on my talk page and edit summaries seem to constitute the same rudeness which you are ascribing to me. Finally, your deletion of instrument nicknames was not the result of consensus; you posted your intention, then went ahead and made the deletion without input from others. Let's respect one another's contributions, as we are all working hard on the article, but not delete without consensus (which, by the way, means a unanimous decision worked out among a group, which was clearly not reached in the cases we are discussing, despite your contention). Badagnani 22:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

My deletions of information was simply my being bold. Generally, when one has an issue with something that has been deleted, they bring it here and there is a discussion about it, instead of simply reverting the information back. That inevitably leads to edit wars which become a nasty mess. However, there have been a few instances on here where majority has ruled and some people have just had to swallow their beef. We have tried to avoid the issues that you brought up by putting a list of notable bassist together and linking it at the bottom of the page. We felt this was more suitable and would leave this page to be solely about the instrument. Kntrabssi 22:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I have reread the discussion and see nothing about a decision to purge all names (even brief references, in context, of highly notable players known for their expertise in various techniques) of non-classical bassists from the article, only eliminating an entire paragraph about specific players. Looking over recent deletions going back a number of weeks I see that they do mainly relate to non-classical uses of the instrument, which may be regarded as frivolous by classical players. Badagnani 22:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Light Currents third edit

Light Currents third edit, the one about removing the Double Bass page from the bass players, as was apparently done on the electric bass page, is the policy we all agreed to. Kntrabssi 22:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

My reading of that edit was that he was referring to the long lists of bass players of various styles which constituted probably about 30% of the length of the article before they were moved -- not the removal of all names of prominent bass players from the article's text. I think it was good thing that those lists are in their own articles, but the mention in the text of the names of selected extremely influential or important players in various styles does add a lot to the article, and should not be removed, as it leads researchers in the right direction rather than hiding the information from them. If Gary Karr, Bert Turetzky, and Edgar Meyer are mentioned by name in the text (as they absolutely should be), then Milt Hinton and very prominent contemporary rock bands using the instrument should be as well. Badagnani 22:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Turetzky, Karr and Meyer are mentioned here as composers and not as performers. They are mentioned under the New Works categories for the pieces they have written for the instrument. What we had agreed on, and this is certain for the rest of us, was the removal of names of players who have only been performers. Their contributions to the double bass are better fit on their pages. I agree with your expansion on the slap technique, howere listing players who were prominent in slap has again gone against this policy and is again being removed. Kntrabssi 23:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Please re-read the section. Karr and Turetzky are not mentioned as composers, but as performers. This deletion further proves my belief that edits are being made to promote classical uses of the bass, and to ignore or minimize non-classical uses -- as many of the latter uses of the double bass feature music which is not notated (though much jazz is notated, particularly that by the prominent jazz double bass player and composer Charles Mingus, who finds himself also removed from the article). Thus, important developments in non-notated music continue to be removed from the article due to this bias. Please try to be more pluralistic in your editing; the fact that of the four most active editors here are primarily oriented toward classical uses of the double bass does not mean that the non-classical uses are not worthy of equal discussion. Badagnani 23:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

If Karr and Turetzky are mentioned as performers (I glimpsed at it, I'll admit), then I feel they should be removed. I agree that a policy should be set and upheld throughout the article with no exceptions. I will reread and probably delete their names. On a side note, when were you in Bangor? I am currently attending the University of Maine and I wonder if I knew the guy you were talking about? Kntrabssi 01:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, maybe you two were really friends in the dim and distant past!!!--Light current 01:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with Badagnani. He is just as passionate about Wikipedia and music as I am, and that sometimes leads to tension, but I respect him. I hope that is clear. I assume the four consistent editors here are bassists? Where did we all study bass? I am currently studying at the University of Maine, as I mentioned above. Kntrabssi 01:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Well Im only a self taught jazz/ big band bassist (now playing EUB) but I hope you'll let me stay! You lot seem more inteligent than those on the BG page and I like it here 8-)--Light current 02:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Turetzky and Karr should be removed, as hard and fast policies can box information and people in. I think we should think of the usefulness and comprehensive-ness to the maximum number of English readers around the world, not telling them everything about the double bass but giving them the basics and steering them in the right direction. Along with Meyer, Karr and Turetzky are of supreme importance, in my view, for what they have done for the instrument in their chosen areas of specialization (as other great musicians have done for the instrument in their own respective genres).

It was not my impression that that rockabilly group was a Maine-based one, though I may be wrong. I think the bassisst had dark, slicked back hair. His slap technique was incredible, so fast that the eye couldn't really follow his right hand. I stood close to the bass and didn't really notice much else that was going on in the band, though I think there was also singing and guitar playing. I noticed that the plucking hand would actually seem to be jumping up and down the fingerboard several inches for each slap and pizz. but even after watching it for over an hour I couldn't really make sense of what he was doing. While in Maine I did get a chance to meet a friend of a friend, a very cool jazz trombonist/hurdy-gurdy player from Orono named Jim Winters. If you run into him tell him I said hi. His sister Stephanie has released a cool CD of multi-tracked cello music.

Although I fooled around the double bass informally (borrowing one from my local community college for a year or two while in high school) I have never studied or performed on it, though I have worked very closely with double bassists in my new music groups since 1989. I do, however, play the bass viola da gamba and electric bass, but specialize in oboe, english horn, and Asian wind instruments (oboes and mouth organs). Badagnani 08:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Double bass rosin

• "Double bass rosin is generally softer and stickier than violin rosin, to give the greater adhesion to the strings,..." Could anyone explain to me what the last part of this sentence means? Kntrabssi 17:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Although I didn't write it, it's saying that it just sticks to the strings better. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 20:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposition on Nicknames

The nicknames of the double bass are way too long. What if we stuck to only the most common nicknames, or only what would appear on a piece of music? That would leave double bass, string bass, contrabass, and bass. It may look a little more professional. Kntrabssi 17:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. This considerably shortened list is not comprehensive. We do not get to choose which nicknames are valid or not, just which have been used. Keep list of nicknames "as is." Badagnani 20:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

THe DB gets call all sorts of things and, whilst we may think some of these names are disrepectful to (y)our art, I reluctantly agree with Badagnani that we will have to keep them in. But how about putting the proper ones in the main bit and relegating the slang terms to a section on its own near the bottom of the page! 8-)--Light current 20:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This is sensible but the "legit" and "illegit." terms could actually be in the same paragraph. I had surmised, as did you, that the slang terms were originally deleted for reasons that the editor is close to the instrument and feels they either make light of or demean the instrument (the way the tuba seems always to be the butt of jokes). But I always felt that names like "doghouse" were used in good humor. Badagnani 20:52, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Well Im easy!. I wonder what KB thinks of this compromise?--Light current 20:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

My edits for the nicknames were simply to shorten the article. There are plenty of nicknames out there that haven't been put in the we may not even know of yet. My attempt was to make the article a little more professional looking by using only the nicknames that would appear on a piece of sheet music handed out in an orchestra, jazz band or symphonic band. Since Wikipedia is all about comprimise, I am fine with this. However, Badagnani, in your careless reversions you have gotten rid of all of my citation tags, as well as reverted some text that mentions other bass players, which we have agreed is not the place in this article. I am going to revert them one last time before I bring it up for mediation. Please read this discussion page before making these reversions in the future. Thanks! Kntrabssi 21:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. You can revert only the citation tags, or I will do so for you. Badagnani 21:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Bass clef symbol

What does the bass clef symbol actually represent? --Light current 22:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The clef on the staff of the music you are reading shows what range of music you are playing. Most orchestra stuff is in bass clef. Advanced solo music is usually mostly in treble. Either way, the double bass actually plays an octave down from the actual notes it is reading. For example, if a cello and bass were to read the same music (cellos are usually in bass clef too), the bass would be playing the same pitches, but an octave lower. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 22:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but what does the symbol mean? (See page for clue! 8-))--Light current 22:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not quite following you. If your asking it's origins, most people think that it came from a variation of a cursive "F", which is the note that the clef rests on (the line with the little ball of the hook on it). — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 22:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct! Its the F clef!--Light current 22:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, alot of people call it that. I guess I just didn't figure you'd be asking something so obvious. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 22:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Well a lot of musicians (bass players even) dont know that so I guess its worth putting in the page! And Im sure you know that the treble clef symbol is a fancy G!--Light current 22:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that might be getting a little off-topic. It's certainly worth mentioning that it is also called the f-clef, but I don't think we need to say where it came from. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 22:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

'Fanning' of strings

Does anyone know exactly why the strings (and fingerboard) are 'fanned out' from a width of about 1.5" at the nut to about 3" (or more) at the bridge. Or is this a stupid question?--Light current 03:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you think about it: the space is needed near the bridge for bow clearance, and it would be tremendously more difficult to play if that same spacing were used at the nut... so that's just my logical conclusion. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 14:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes Id thought of that. So why aren't they they same spacing at the nut? Also bear in mind that the Fender P bass guitar is not as fanned as the Fender Jazz bass (the jazz is much narrower at the nut than the P) 8-? --Light current 17:13, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment on bass guitars, so maybe you should take your question there. I do know that the spacing on double basses vary due to lack of standardization, but not by a lot. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 18:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Well on the DB, my personal thought is that its easier to stop any of the strings near the nut if they are closer together. Its not often that you have to play the E and A strings high up so they can be more spaced there. But on the BG it shouldnt make a difference. I will ask on the BG page tho!--Light current 19:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Deafness from DB playing

Anyone know whether bass playing (on its own) can damage your hearing. Is it less damaging than (say) playing the violin next to your ear all the time? 8-?--Light current 20:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Neither is loud enough to damage your hearing permanently. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 21:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Pardon?--Light current 22:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Seriously though folks, Im trying to find out if its safer playing bass than other insts regarding hearing loss (ie are lower frequencies less harmful to the ears). Does anyone have refs?--Light current 22:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I have always found that frequency is not the issue, but volume. So you can play flute or piccolo or oboe or anything high as well as low, but if you play them at a safe voluem, you should be fine.

Yeah but whats a safe volume with amplified bass? - it always sounds louder further away you get from the speaker and people always say youre too loud when you can only just hear yourself! 8-( --Light current 22:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I would look at the page on decibels for the answer on that! I generally do not play an amplified instrument, so I am not the best one to consult about that.

I think Im going to pose this one on the Bass guitar page!--Light current 22:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. But like I said, you could play your unamplified double bass as loud as you could for hours, and not get hearing damage. — ßottesiηi ^{Tell me what's up} 22:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Unless your standing next to the drummer! 8-))--Light current 22:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Hers an interesting quotation on deafness caused by playing music:

Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sound is in the high-frequencies. Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long-term exposure. In addition, attending live concerts (where noise levels can exceed 120 dB) can damage hearing, as well as listening to loud music through headphones.

If you think you have grown used to a loud noise, it probably has damaged your ears, and there is no treatment - no medicine, no surgery, not even a hearing aid, that truly corrects your hearing once it is damaged by noise.

my bolding.

So dont go sticking that DB under your chin 8-) (Sorry! couldnt resist that one) --Light current 21:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, Im sure my fellow bass players will be pleased to know that, after having taken the 'telephone hearing test',(both ears) my results are 'within acceptable limits' for a person of my age (which shall remain a mystery!). Also, I went to a v.loud gig yesterday and wore my musicians earplugs. The sound level was very bearable with the plugs in (the music was crap) and I 'exposed myself' for about 3 hrs with no after effects and without getting arrested! I could still talk to people close by and order (too many) drinks etc!--Light current 22:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)