Talk:Deutschlandlied

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Detail on Petkovic and her reaction

Additional information on Petkovic's motivation and ethnic self identification is imho way too much detail for this article on the anthem (nor did her reaction and attitude differ all that much from the rest of German team).

That aside simply adding her (foreign) place of birth provides not explanatory value on its own. To draw any reasonable conclusions on self identification you need to know where (and how) a person was raised, i.e. the socialization during its childhood and adolescence. That however would require even more details and all that stuff is too much off topic here and at best belongs in Petkovic's own WP article.--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:37, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi symbol? How to describe the status of the Deutschlandlied

"After the Second World War ended in 1945, singing "Das Lied der Deutschen" was banned along with ~~other~~ symbols of Nazi Germany by the Allies."

I am undoing the (unsourced) addition of "other" in this text and adding a citation-needed tag to the whole statement. There are several issues:

"Other" would seem to add an overly broad implication that the song is a Nazi symbol. A more circumspect description could possibly be argued.
Since the whole song was actually the anthem of the Federal Republic of Germany from about 1952 to 1991 (though only the third verse was normally sung), it does not seem appropriate to state or imply, without further qualification, that it is a Nazi symbol.
If there was a ban after WW2, it was very temporary, so the whole statement is misleading (though it could be reworded).
The alleged ban presumably refers to Law 154 for the American zone, which makes "banned ... by the Allies" slightly misleading.
It is not clear if Law 154 actually applied to this song.

I am inclined to remove the whole sentence, though it could perhaps be saved by adding more detail and very reliable sources. I would suggest moving the sub-section Modern use of the first stanza to this section (from the Criticism section) since it does not deal mainly with criticism of the topic itself and would probably be the best place to discuss the current status of the first verse (with appropriate reliable sources). --Boson (talk) 11:13, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Insofar as the words German and Nazi were used interchangeably in English during the wartime period and after, the anthem was perceived as a Nazi symbol. Obviously, this was a mistaken assumption; but we have the luxuries of hindsight and of recent history.

Nuttyskin (talk) 01:50, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That, I think, raises the most important point here: "a symbol, in whose opinion?" This anthem is now definitely not intended as a Nazi symbol, but there are still people in the world who will run from the room if they hear the first four notes, regardless of who is singing and regardless of any changes to the words. People's memory for music, and what it reminds them of, can be vivid, long-lasting, and irrational. Added to that problem is the fact that most people outside the German-speaking countries had never heard any German anthem until the late 1930s, so they falsely assumed that this song was a new composition specially commissioned by the National Socialists rather than a song that already had a long history. TooManyFingers (talk) 00:29, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Memel river or town?

@Inoslav Bešker: Is there an explanation (preferably with a source) for the recent change from the River Memel to the town of the same name? The use of the definite article ("die Memel") in German and the context of the other three waterways would suggest that the river is intended. --Boson (talk) 00:14, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Do we have a source for the pronunciation? Just looking at the first verse, I'm wondering about the pronunciations given as

alɛs
dər
ʃtɛts
ʃuːts
dɛn

--Boson (talk) 19:47, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The words might be pronounced slightly differently when sung, but I would normally expect:

aləs
deːɐ̯
ʃteːʦ
ʃʊʦ
deːn

--Boson (talk) 06:08, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Deutschlandlied.ogg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Modern use of first stanza" section

The way the "Modern use of the first stanza" section is currently worded is flawed as it seems to imply the first stanza is controversial in contemporary Germany, but it doesn't actually elucidate as to why exactly this is. This can be confusing to somebody with no prior knowledge on the matter reading the article. Thus, somebody should add more context as to why it is controversial rather than assuming everybody already knows. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 11:09, 26 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Song of the Germans?

Whatever its title when translated into English, the title of the song in English, and as used in British culture, is Deutschland Über Alles. The article ought to reflect that Nuttyskin (talk) 01:56, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:49, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source?!? Why, common experience as a native English speaker in an English-speaking country. As universally-known as the fact that rain is wet. You only have to look around the Internet, to see that everyone uses Deutschland Über Alles as if it were the songtitle.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rmheo9bePH8

Title: Deutschland über alles - German Anthem

Or try this one from Der Spiegel:-

https://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-divided-about-approach-to-russia-a-1206338.html

"Imagine ending an op ed with an elderly pianist playing 'Deutschland über Alles' "

Or this one:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhQwLeMcbRY

"The song is as well-known by the opening words and refrain of the first stanza, 'Deutschland über alles' (Germany above all), but this has never been its title."

Nuttyskin (talk) 03:25, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, Song of the Germans does not give an accurate translation of Deutschlandlied, which would really be Germany Song.

Nuttyskin (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article was originally titled "Das Lied der Deutschen", and I wouldn't object to move it back there. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:25, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the Order of Dates in the Right Sidebar

Apologies, because I am new to editing Wikipedia articles, but is there a reason that, in the main side bar on the right, the Readopted date (1952) is listed before (above) the Relinquished date (1945)? I believe it would make more sense to list them in chronological order (Relinquished → Adopted), rather than the way it is now. As of now, upon an initial reading of the side bar thing (whose name I don't know, but I do know that it is the first thing one tends to read), it appears that Deutschlandlied is no longer the national anthem of Germany, because the last event listed is that of it being "Relinquished." I would suggest that the two entries ("Readopted" and "Relinquished") be switched, so that it is clear from the side bar that this song is the current national anthem of Germany.

Ggmcmahon (talk) 05:03, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The problem lies with the template code. I raised the matter at Template talk:Infobox anthem#adopted/until/readopted. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:02, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1974 FIFA

The article claimed:

In the 1974 FIFA World Cup in their home country, West German football players remained silent and did not sing their anthem.^[1]

This is not supported by the linked video. The video shows East-German players, not singing to what I presume is their respective anthem. But why is this mentioned to begin with? Without context, this does not really say much. It looks like this was the match West Germany - East Germany in the group phase. All in all, lacking the necessary context, I removed it for now from the article because I don't see how this is relevant to understanding the topic 'Deutschlandlied' better. effeietsanders 19:23, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Mister X – RFA 74 RFA–RDA 0–1 on YouTube

You are mistaken. The clip opens with the last few bars of the East German national anthem, and the East German players not singing it. The clip then shows how the whole West German team remains silent during the playing of the "Deutschlandlied". So the text you removed was correct. I don't think it needs any more context, but I agree that its relevance is dubious. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wieniawski's music?

Wieniawski's music listed in this article says "Austrian anthem" in the title. It seems to me that in order to keep it here we'd need proof that he secretly intended it for Germany; otherwise it should probably be deleted from here and added at the "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" page. TooManyFingers (talk) 00:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wieniawski's piece is already mentioned at Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser and I agree that it should be removed here. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I remember reading that the music of this song was often listed in English-language musicbooks as Austria.

Nuttyskin (talk) 05:46, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Translation

“Über“ in this instance probably more properly over, not above “blühen” as blossoming/blooming opposed to flourishing Both translations of the words are correct, but the meaning is altered by choice of English word 2607:FEA8:7CE0:FE00:380F:8241:BD1E:369F (talk) 23:32, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Phonetic transcription

As found in edit history that looks the pronunciation is determined by the IPA in the anthem looks to be correct:

[ˈdɔʏtʃlant ˈdɔʏtʃlant yːbɐ alɛs]
[yːbɐ alɛs ɪn dɛɐ vɛlt]
[vɛn ɛs ˈʃtɛts tsʊ ʃuːts ʊnt ˈtʁʊtsə]
[bʁyːdɐ̯lɪç tsuːzamn̩ˈhɛːlt]
[fɔn dɛɐ maːs bɪs an diː ˈmɛməl]
[fɔn dɛɐ ɛtʃ bɪs an dɛn ˈbɛlt]
[ˈdɔʏtʃlant ˈdɔʏtʃlant yːbɐ alɛs]
[yːbɐ alɛs in dɛɐ vɛlt]
[ˈdɔʏtʃlant ˈdɔʏtʃlant yːbɐ alɛs]
[yːbɐ alɛs in dɛɐ vɛlt]

[ˈdɔʏtʃɛ ˈfʁaʊən ˈdɔʏtʃɛ tʁɔʏə]
[ˈdɔʏtʃɐ vaɪn ʊnt ˈdɔʏtʃɐ zaŋ]
[ˈzɔln̩ ɪn dɛɐ vɛlt ˈbɛhaltn̩]
[iːrən altn̩ ʃøːnən klaŋ]
[ˈuns tsʊ ɛdlɐ tat bɛgaɪˈstɛʁn]
[ˈunzɐ ganˈtsɛs lɛbən laŋ]
[ˈdɔʏtʃɛ ˈfʁaʊən ˈdɔʏtʃɛ tʁɔʏə]
[ˈdɔʏtʃɐ vaɪn ʊnt ˈdɔʏtʃɐ zaŋ]
[ˈdɔʏtʃɛ ˈfʁaʊən ˈdɔʏtʃɛ tʁɔʏə]
[ˈdɔʏtʃɐ vaɪn ʊnt ˈdɔʏtʃɐ zaŋ]

[aɪnɪçˈkaɪt ʊnt ʁɛçt ʊnt ˈfʁaɪhaɪt]
[ˈfyːʁ das ˈdɔʏtʃɛ ˈfaːtɐˌlant]
[ˈdanax last ʊns alə ˈʃtʁɛbən]
[bʁyːdɐ̯lɪç mɪt ˈhɛʁts ʊnt ˈhant]
[aɪnɪçˈkaɪt ʊnt ʁɛçt ʊnt ˈfʁaɪhaɪt]
[zɪnt dɛs glʏkɛs ʊntɐpfant]
[blyː ɪm ˈglantsə diːzes glʏkɛs]
[blyːə ˈdɔʏtʃɛs ˈfaːtɐˌlant]
[blyː ɪm ˈglantsə diːzes glʏkɛs]
[blyːə ˈdɔʏtʃɛs ˈfaːtɐˌlant]

Certainly that it should include in the lyrics section.

ApprenticeWiki ^work 23:07, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't parse you introduction and closing. As for the substance of your proposed addition: a) several objections to your transcription have been made here before – see #Pronunciation, and I agree with them; b) it needs a reliable source; c) it needs consensus that it's needed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:21, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong Translation?

In my humble German opinion, there is a misinterpretation in the English translation "Germany, Germany above all". https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Deutschlandlied#Title

It should be correctly translated "Germany, Germany more than everything in the world", because it does not read "über allen" ("above everyone"), which would mean persons, it says not even "über allem", which contained a clear dominance in the sense of a direction from above (heaven, more worth) to below (foot people, lower status) or existential relevance. The top floors in skyscrapers are known to be the most expensive.

For example, it is not possible to say "Er thront über alles" (that would be wrong German), but only "Er thront über allem/allen" ("He is enthroned over everything/everyone"). The word combination "über alles" is a common reinforcement of a preceding verb expressing a very positive (love) or negative (hate) emotion. So you could say, "Ich brauche es über alles" ("I need it above all else") or "Ich fürchte es über alles" ("I fear it above all else"). https://www.dict.cc/?s=%C3%BCber+alles 2A02:8109:25C0:6C8:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB (talk) 20:41, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's all correct and these same points have been raised in past discussions here, e.g. Talk:Deutschlandlied/Archive 2#"Above all" is just bad German. What you're missing is the wider meaning of "wikt:above all". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IPA transcription

I think we should re-look at adding IPA. Other national anthem articles have IPA transcriptions (except for those in English, because common English words don't need IPA transcriptions here). German words do not fall under the category of common English words, so I think this should be added. Any thoughts? TheGreatAustralian (talk) 05:38, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What's done in other articles (or in simple:) has no bearing on this article. There were several objections to previously proposed IPA transcriptions. As usual on Wikipedia, anything without reliable and reputable sources is likely to be challenged. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:03, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IPA re-added

I have added back the IPA because other national anthems have IPA, it is allowed and recommended under MOS:IPA and because a source is not needed. Even other German-language anthems have IPA (e.g the National anthem of Austria). Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 05:08, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Symbols of the revolution

Hello, I deleted some statements from the introduction because (a) they are not really necessary there and (b) they are a little bit dubious. First, the Lied der Deutschen was a somewhat popular song in its first decades, but not more than that. The most famous national song of the 1848 period was certainly "Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland" by Arndt.

Second, the tradition of the German flag stems from the period after 1830; the 1778 flag of one principality is a coincidence. The colours became official in 1848 (via the Bundestag and later via the National Assembly). In contrast to the flag, there was no official anthem prior to 1922.

Third, there were several reasons for Ebert to choose this song as the national anthem in 1922. The liberal tradition was one of them; another the national aspect and that it had become popular in the First World War. Ebert hoped to include the political right with this song.

Kind regards, Ziko (talk) 09:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Error in map description

There is an error in the description of the map "Contemporary German conceptions of the "German language" ...": Borders of German Customs Union are given in green, not brown. I don't know how to change this in the box, maybe somebody else can help. Oberschwabe01 (talk) 09:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Mister X – RFA 74 RFA–RDA 0–1 on YouTube

[1]