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Distinguishing between Delta hubs and focus cities

Hello all. So, there are a lot of conflicting sources for DL's hubs/focus cities and the blur between the the two has gotten kind of murky. Currently, we are listing the following:

Hubs:

  • Amsterdam
  • Atlanta
  • Boston
  • Cincinnati
  • Detroit
  • London–Heathrow
  • Los Angeles
  • Minneapolis/St. Paul
  • New York–JFK
  • New York–LaGuardia
  • Paris–Charles de Gaulle
  • Salt Lake City
  • Seattle/Tacoma
  • Tokyo–Narita

Focus cities:

  • Raleigh/Durham

According to the most recent DL publications, here is the breakdown (http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf):

Hubs:

Focus cities:

  • Boston
  • Cincinnati
  • Raleigh/Durham

According to DL's "press paragraph", the breakdown is (http://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts):

Hubs:

  • Amsterdam
  • Atlanta
  • Boston
  • Detroit
  • Los Angeles
  • Mexico City
  • Minneapolis/St. Paul
  • New York-JFK and LaGuardia
  • London–Heathrow
  • Paris–Charles de Gaulle
  • Salt Lake City
  • São Paulo
  • Seattle/Tacoma
  • Seoul
  • Tokyo–Narita

I also want to caution that we may be relying to heavily on WP:PRIMARY sources, perhaps using secondary sources will help clarify the issue. I have distinguished secondary sources from the primary ones below.

Sources

Here is a compilation of all the sources I have seen used, feel free to add to the list:

Specifically on CVG

Specifically on BOS

Specifically on RDU

Specifically on MCO

Specifically on International Hubs

These are alliance hubs, not airline carrier hubs.2601:582:4105:60F4:11F5:2B13:920B:D5D4 (talk) 00:10, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

In my opinion, per WP:PRIMARY, while the large hubs can be adequately sourced from DL's material, I think we need to use WP:SECONDARY to declare the hubs/focus cities DL leaves ambiguous. These include CVG/BOS/RDU/MCO/etc. Based on the secondary sources, I think we should list it as: ATL/BOS/CVG/DTW/MSP/JFK/LGA/SLC/LAX, Focus Cities: RDU/MCO. Stinger20 (talk) 02:27, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Add on, I would not be opposed to listing CVG/BOS/RDU/MCO as focus cities, but I do have issues with significant secondary sources calling both airports hubs (CVG/BOS), while the primary sources leave it ambiguous, then selecting certain primary sources as ref's and ignoring the others. Stinger20 (talk) 23:51, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't think any overseas airports (LHR,CDG,AMS,NRT) should be listed as hubs. They are transfer or alliance hubs and don't meet the definition of a hub that we tend to use here in my opinion. As for everything else, I agree that we should be relying on secondary sources where the primary Delta sources leave it ambiguous. Garretka (talk) 00:00, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

That is a good point, I overlooked that. The secondary sources are not listing AMS/CDG/LHR as hubs, I will remove that from my previous post. Looking at some of DL's sourcing, they are starting to call GRU/MEX/ICN hubs in the same way as LHR/AMS/CDG, these are all not hubs (secondary sources agree). The source on NRT essentially says the hub is effectively dead, I would see that as a justification for NRT not being listed as a hub, plus the primary sourcing on DL largely supports that. Stinger20 (talk) 00:05, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

This is all very confusing to say the least. Delta does not make it clear one way or another. Size wize, CVG, BOS and RDU are more along the lines of focus cities, but Delta's website has contradicting information. If it were up to me, I'd list them as focus cities for now, but I'll leave it alone until something more formal comes out. I do agree we should deslist the foreign hubs (LHR, CDG, AMS and NRT), as those really don't count. NBA2030 (talk) 01:02, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not and never will be a repository for such minute pedantic detail - as is being discussed above. This is also a really good example of why Wikipedia relies on WP:SECONDARY references and does does not rely on WP:PRIMARY sources. In this case it matters nothing what Delta says - Delta will say what ever they want, what matters here is what is written in reliable secondary sources. This is exactly why the sourcing rules are written the way they are. I often feel many of the contributers to aviation related articles are trying to outdo each other to find the most esoteric fact to add to an already long list of entires (whatever the list is for), such detail is not what is actually needed in an Encyclopaedia which is a WP:TERTIARY source and should be a distillation of the sources not a repetition of these. Less is more!
My advice on focus cities is that mostly that they don't really truely exist (when did you ever hear anyone say Oh I'm going to XXXXX city did you know that is a Focus city for Malasian Airlines?) as the lack of reliable secondary references suggests. This being so such detail just simply should not be mentioned in Wikipedia it is NOt what Wikipedia is for. Everyone will be happier and the world will not end. Hubs are slightly different as these do physically exist - it is usually obvious which airport a particular airline is connecting passengers through (the definition of a hub), I would limit hubs to only to those that "many" passengers connect to "many" flight options on the same airline. An alliace hub (the "Amsterdam problem" - AMS is NOT a delta hub by this definition). Neither does base = hub. I personally would just list the obvious ones - it matters little to Wikipedia as a whole that the list does not include a particular potential addition past the obvious. Off the top of my head - United would be ORD, IAH, SFO, EWR nothing else, Delta ATL and maybe others, British Airways LHR and possibly LGW but that would be debatable example, Emirates - DXB etc etc I would stop when it gets hard or questionable. If there is doubt leave it out. Andrewgprout (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I think we ought to go ahead and remove the foreign hubs, since they don't really classify as hubs in the traditional sense. The rest we can leave for now. NBA2030 (talk) 00:04, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

@NBA2030: I back this, maybe it will help get some other editors to join the discussion as well. Stinger20 (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
@Stinger20: alright, I went ahead and removed the foreign hubs. We still need more feedback from others about whether or not BOS and CVG should be hubs or focus cities. NBA2030 (talk) 00:59, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Focus cities

Should we really be listing Austin, Nashville and San Jose as focus cities? They are not on the same level as Cincinnati and Raleigh-Durham and I believe Delta was referring to them as a "focus" in growth, not as a focus city in the classic definition. Blissfield101 (talk) 01:13, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

BNA as a Focus City

I was checking out the Delta site for a ATL-DET flight. In addition to a direct flight, connections through three cities were offered: BNA, CVG, and RDU. I believe connecting flights would fit the definition of a focus city. Thoughts? CommunityFlow (talk) 14:22, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Focus city at PDX

I believe one of delta’s focus cities is at Portland, they have a flight from salt lake come on a 737-800 then a 767 continues on to Tokyo's Narita airport. I think this warrants at least focus city. It is also launched many flights to is hubs such as LAX or SLC and I think they are trying to compete with Alaska Airlines there as well. This would probably make PDX a focus city for delta. Lufthansa122 (talk) 16:54, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

No, it's not. Just because it has a few non-hub routes doesn't mean it is classified as focus city. Delta has never referred to it as such. Frankly, we shouldn't be listing any focus cities because the definition is too gray. We should only list hubs/operating bases. Blissfield101 (talk) 22:03, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2020

In March unknown flight number a man had a hart attach and the flight frm Bavier to Atlanta safely landed in Jax to be toersom out. 2600:8803:5B00:C4C:2C46:FC3A:DB82:98CC (talk) 00:44, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: In addition to not being in the form "please change X to Y", you're request does not include a reliable published source. As such, we cannot determine whether the incident is noteworthy enough to be included in the article. As you have written it, it is not a noteworthy incident. - BilCat (talk) 00:53, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Accidents and Incidents section August 23, 1995 edit requests

August 23, 1995: There is a misspelled word in the narrative. Seperation is misspelled, change to separation. Of course I would have changed that error myself but this is a locked page. Also in uninjured column of table, change 236 to All, to keep in format with the rest of the table. Thank you.2601:581:8402:1EE0:304C:CD3D:3958:6A95 (talk) 21:29, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Uh, thanks, but if you'd create/use an account, by now you would have been able to fix it yourself. People don't like having to do work for others that they could easily do themselves but won't. - BilCat (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Delta Global Staffing into Delta Air Lines

This company was a subsidiary and currently, it doesn't have enough encyclopedic write up which may help it it sustain an independent page. Hatchens (talk) 15:21, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree to merge: Talks about the same thing. Delta Global Staffing contains very little importance to have a standalone Wikipedia article. Gerald Waldo Luis (talk) 07:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2020

Accidents and incidents, 10/19/1996, description, where it says right-wing. Remove dash in between words, should be right wing. Thank you.2601:581:8402:1EE0:FD80:78A2:FA58:D25D (talk) 17:10, 3 December 2020 (UTC) 2601:581:8402:1EE0:FD80:78A2:FA58:D25D (talk) 17:10, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done Good catch, no need to bring politics into this. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2020

Delta Air Lines Accidents and Incidents Aircraft minor grammar corrections

  • 4/12/1977-Change Tristar to TriStar (s should be capitalized, that's how the aircraft was branded). Done
  • 8/2/1985-Change Tristar to TriStar Done
  • 7/8/1987-(ADD) TriStar, should be Lockheed L-1011 TriStar

Thank you for your time.2601:581:8402:1EE0:FD80:78A2:FA58:D25D (talk) 12:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC) 2601:581:8402:1EE0:FD80:78A2:FA58:D25D (talk) 12:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done, completed the last request and also added wikilinks to the aircraft's article. PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 23:47, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2020

Delta Air Lines Accidents and Incidents wikilink aircraft in table

Hello. In Delta Air Lines Accidents and incidents table, want changes in Aircraft column so all go to redirected wiki pages;

Thank you for your help and have a good day.2601:581:8402:1EE0:DD27:2A5A:EE4A:86E2 (talk) 15:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC) 2601:581:8402:1EE0:DD27:2A5A:EE4A:86E2 (talk) 15:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 16:25, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2020

Add the 2019 financial figures to the "Financial information for Delta, by year" table for the fiscal year ending 2019.

Figures to add: Revenue = $47,007 (reference page 27) Net income = $4,767 (reference page 27) Total assets = $64,532 (reference page 27) Price per share = ? (see below) Employees = 91,000 (reference page 11)

Question on price per share: what is the criteria for this? Price at market close on Dec 31, 2019? Average price for the year 2019? Something else?

Source: SEC 10-K filling. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0000027904/000002790420000004/dal-20191231.htm#i_0_91 Yotzt (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done
SSSB (talk) 15:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Fleet size and sources

Sorry, colleagues, the wrangling over fleet size figures has got to stop. You (we) can't complain about Planespotters being an inadequate source here, then move the reference citation out of the infobox per WP:INFOBOXREF here, and then completely remove the cite ref here, all the while (before, during and after) entering apparently arbitrary (because unsourced) values in one or the other (almost never both) of the locations in the article.

I have no idea where the 763, 777, 775, 779, 808 numbers come from. Oh, wait! Yes, I do, the last changes, with the edit summary "Planespotter.com is not WP:RS", changed the fleet size to 808, as at planespotters, but completely removed the ref. I am going to reinstate the ref "Planespotters-Delta", including the "Better source needed" template, and hope that somebody can either provide a better source, stop changing the fleet size to unsourced values, or both.

Otherwise, we will have to go with 722 and the phrase "As of August 2015", because that's what the remaining ref citation gives us. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 19:55, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello! As you edit the fleet size. Please use the calculator and add all in service of Delta Air Lines fleets. If you have any concern, please add the discussion of User talk:Marc Lacoste thank you! Corner2002 (talk) 13:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

What are you talking about? What calculator? What does Marc Lacoste have to do with the topic? The "discussion" at User talk:Marc Lacoste#Confused fleet size gives me no new information. Did you mean another thread? — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 14:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Delta Air Lines accidents and incidents section Flight 2231 deletion

Hello and good day. Go to Flight 2231 in accidents and incidents section. Flight 2231 incident should be deleted from list. Not worthy of mentioning. Aircraft slide off runways on occasion in icy weather. Thank you and have a good day.2601:581:8402:6620:304C:CD3D:3958:6A95 (talk) 22:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2021

Under the entire heading of ===Hubs===, add the following:

Focus Cities

On March 10, 2021, Delta CEO Glen Hauenstein, announced the airline would drop Cincinnatti, Nashville, and San Jose as focus cities.[1]

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 02:15, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Huston, John. "Delta Zaps Cincinnati as Focus City". Airways Magazine. Airways International, Inc. Retrieved 11 March 2021.

New article for Delta 757 Accident on Wednesday

On Wednesday a 757 delta got a bird strike and suffered extensive damage, i dont know the tail number Or The Flight number but maybe A Article could be made. Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 19:32, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Add section about association with Delta Variant, à la Corona (beer)

Should we add a section about this? It seems notable (covered in some news articles).Hkbusfan (talk) 12:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Austin is a focus city

Noticed the hidden note in the infobox. Per a Delta Executive, Austin and Raleigh/Durham are the two focus cities that will remain post-pandemic. The comments are well supported by secondary sources:

I’m going to be bold and add Austin… if anyone disagrees feel free to revert and discuss here. RickyCourtney (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Initially, it was added on here in May, but many opted to not include Austin as they had no point-to-point services at the time of the announcement. I have no issue with it being on the page but others might Bentheswimmer11 (talk) 22:49, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2022

Delta has codeshare with LATAM that needs to be included under destinations and hubs

The subsidaries section at the top needs to include Grupo Aeroméxico which they own 49% in (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupo_Aerom%C3%A9xico) 2600:8802:5102:CA00:ACD4:A530:A56F:9A17 (talk) 08:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Aeromexico is undergoing Chapter 11 restructuring that might dilute Delta's holding to just a fifth, so it's best to wait till that's over. hemantha (brief) 13:13, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Delta Air Lines Flight 2231 deletion in Accidents and Incidents table

The Flight 2231 incident in Accidents and Incidents should be deleted. Not noteworty as aircraft slide off runways from time to time with no serious injuries from time to time in winter months. Was deleted February 28, 2021 but put back again. Thank you.Theairportman33531 (talk) 04:52, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2022

For lounges Austin, Texas is labeled as a focus city it is not a focus city for Delta. Editorforairport (talk) 13:51, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 17:28, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Airbus and Boeing Order's required?

Hi Delta Air Lines,

Good everyone, I saw a check on the internet for Delta Air Lines fleet list for the information.

I think it's Latam group will get some of the Airbus A350-1000 4 series transfer to Delta Air Lines later this year? A350-1000 long haul is 10,004 miles very awesome and also just wants to travel to Europe, Asia, Oceania, Middle East, and Africa and one more non-stop direction from Atlanta to Johannesburg, South Africa that is good absolutely.

Boeing 777-300ER or 777X choice:
Well, it was a too very long time last delay the last buy product for Boeing 777-300ER (10) series order will be instead both Boeing 777-200ER and LR, too, or Boeing 777-8X or 9X the same everything for this attraction can in the future and I think so?

Boeing 787’s required?
Delta because it canceled its order from Boeing 787-8 last in December 2016 why? Maybe again when Boeing 787-8, 9, and 10 families travel to Asia, Europe, Oceania, Africa, and the Middle East for Delta Air Lines it will be able instead of Airbus A330-200, and Boeing 767-300ER during hubs at Atlanta Airport and they are agreeing able?

I am a deaf in Seattle only. I would like it Delta Air Lines guess hub in Seattle, too.

Have a good day! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmaryahJohnson1996 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Edit request on June 13rd, 2022

Hello,
Could someone add Pegasus Airlines[1] to the Codeshare Partners Section?
Thank you, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.55.33.144 (talk) 14:31, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://simpleflying.com/pegasus-airlines-history/amp/

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2023

Request that them losing a lawsuit by one of their pilots, after they were found to have paid a doctor to create a false bipolar disorder (and thus prevent the pilot from flying) after that pilot raised a safety concerns be added to the controversy section. Articles found all over the web including CNN, CNBC, etc. Can post specific links if people would like. 136.57.139.16 (talk) 20:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. You'll need to provide the sources, as well as the exact edit you'd like to have made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:39, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Edit Fleet size

Fleet size should be changed from 877 to 910 Sfrinkygnaziorazio (talk) 12:48, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Source? BilCat (talk) 20:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Edinburgh a Delta hub??

Does anyone know if this is true? Someone keeps adding it here [1]. Jz0610 (talk) 16:21, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Definitely is not. –DMartin 04:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2023

Factual errors ... example: Boston is Delta's secondary Transatlantic gateway. The fact is that JFK and ATL are essentially co-primary Transatlantic gateways, and Boston is on par with Detroit.

Suggested change: include "primary Transatlantic gateway" in Atlanta hub description; change Boston description to "one of Delta's secondary Transatlantic gateways"; add to Detroit description "one of Delta's secondary Transatlantic gateways". ATL Monkey (talk) 13:35, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Unfi

Unifi, formerly DGS, is 49% owned by Delta and should appear in the subsidiaries 79.16.147.251 (talk) 18:25, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

We need a reliable published source for that first. BilCat (talk) 18:54, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Here it is, it is a recent article and clearly stares that "Delta kept 49%": https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2023/03/28/what-happened-to-delta-global-services-its-successor-wants-to-reshape-aviation-services/?sh=309c449e153d 79.16.147.251 (talk) 02:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
@BilCatplease proceed to add Unifi in the subsidiaries. 213.174.118.51 (talk) 00:34, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Focus cities

Now that Austin is getting Point-To-Point services, shouldn’t it now be on the list? I recall the previous discussion on this where someone else stated that AUS should not be listed until they have point-to-point service, which they now do to RDU, CVG, MCO, and LAS. Bentheswimmer11 (talk) 06:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request - Delta Air Lines COO name

As of June 12, 2023, Mike Spanos is the COO of Delta Air Lines

https://news.delta.com/mike-spanos-join-delta-chief-operating-officer Loufrankel (talk) 21:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Incident at SLC Airport 1/1/2024 in Accidents and Incidents

The incident at SLC Airport on 1/1/2024 should be possibly deleted in the future. We should do so after the autopsy, he could have died because of other factors, i.e. exposure to cold or other reasons, he was found intact in the engine nacelle and not mutilated in any way. Lets see what the autopsy reveals and see if we can come to a consensus.Theairportman33531 (talk) 12:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Delta Airlines 757 loses nose wheel while at ATL airport

On January 20, 2024, Delta Flight 982, a Boeing 757-200 bound for the El Dorado International Airport in Bogotá, Colombia lost its nose wheel while taxiing to the runway to depart from the Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport in Atlanta, Georgia. All passengers and their bags left the aircraft unharmed and were transferred to another gate, where they boarded another flight which made it to Bogotá safely. 71.251.5.246 (talk) 13:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This incident does not meet the threshold of notability set forth at WP:AIRCRASH. This is a relatively minor maintenance issue that’s received outsized attention because of the 737 MAX 9 grounding. RickyCourtney (talk) 14:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Jetliner Skids off runway in Snowy landing

From Chicago Tribune on March 15, 1998, At Portland Jetport in Portland, Maine, A Delta Air Lines skidded off the runway. "It was landing during a snowstorm and couldn't stop in time," Delta spokeswoman Katie Moussouri. It was a MD-88, Flight 2148 with 152 uninjured Passengers including crew members. Before the MD-88 landed, there was an inch or two of snow with slight ice. FMC022 (talk) 03:51, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This incident does not meet the threshold of notability set forth at WP:AIRCRASH. RickyCourtney (talk) 14:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Partner airlines

Partner airlines are listed under the category “subsidiaries” this is false. 67.42.77.90 (talk) 06:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Focus cities

Delta reportedly no longer uses the "focus city" moniker to refer to select non-hub airports. (See the TPG article titled "Delta adds 11 new Austin flights just weeks after American slashed its schedule there" [Dec. 15, 2023], which I can't add here.)

That said, on Wikipedia we typically defer to secondary sources. In accordance with that policy, I would be in favor of citing secondary sources to refer to certain airports as focus cities—namely Raleigh[2], Cincinnati[3][4], and Austin[5]. Thoughts? --Precision123 (talk) 22:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

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