Talk:Deaths of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon

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Netherlands

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Panama (inactive)

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May 2018

Based on a follow-up story done by the Daily Beast here, new evidence has emerged in the case to suggest foul play was involved. I don't know how to add to the article properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.70.122.184 (talk) 23:08, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Daily Beast is not a serious reference

the daily beast is not a very good reference for the statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeinthetrees (talk • contribs) 23:08, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

January 2019

case summary — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.153.132.7 (talk) 20:16, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The 77 attempts

The 77 attempts are "check signal attempts", not "emergency call attempts". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:1066:9B40:35CC:2FA8:2356:6CF0 (talk) 05:05, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it's check signal, they could have been checking the signal to call for emergency services. But why not just hit 911? Or it's not 911 there? Maybe they were lost or lost the dog and were trying to find the dog and got deeper into the jungle where someone killed them? Idk but your comment makes things very different, ty. 2600:8807:8801:4310:B523:8DDD:1FA8:7377 (talk) 17:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading statement

The statement "uncovered enough new evidence to suggest foul play, as well as a possible link to other murders in the area." is false, no new evidence was found in 2017 that the police didn't have in 2014 and no evidence confirms foul play or third party involvement, accordingly this statement should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ostirnim (talk • contribs) 14:44, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know that? Is this a comment from a wiki person who probably has wrong info, if so ty for adding the correct info. 2600:8807:8801:4310:B523:8DDD:1FA8:7377 (talk) 17:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Body height of Lisanne Froon

I am sure that Lisanne's height was nowhere near 1.84 m (6.0 ft) as written in the info box. That would be very tall and 17 cm taller than Kris Kremers, who is 1.67 (5.6 ft) I suspect she is 1.74 m instead, that would be in line with photos where the two stand next to each other and are nowhere 17 cm different in height. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AshtarGent (talk • contribs) 20:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen multiple reports, indicating Froon's height to be 6 feet tall. I have also seen photos that appear to show Froon as being significantly taller that Kremers. I will try to link a photo here. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some photos are here: [1]. The first photo and the third photo on the page (which are the same exact photo) show the two women standing near each other at an airport. To my eyes, Froon looks much taller than Kremers. The six-inch difference seems about right, from what I can tell in that photo. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:55, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many, many, many more photos here: [2]. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:37, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading emergency call number

"112" is not only the emergency call number "in the Netherlands" - that's simply ridiculous. "112" is THE international emergency call number for the population on the planet. European Union (27 countries: Germany, France, Italy....), most of the other European countries (f. ex. UK) and India, China... only to name the biggest. Only US, Canada and some countries in Africa and South America and - sad to say, in this case - Panama uses the 911 (or other numbers). You just have to check - oh! - Wikipedia. Please refrain from the simple "American perspective" and improve the text or I'm going to do that. Happy day!87.161.103.212 (talk) 18:14, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the Netherlands uses 112 as its emergency number is what's relevant, not whether the UK or India does so. The relevant article is linked for those wishing to learn more information beyond the scope of this article. Hope that helps. --Equivamp - talk 18:17, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. What is relevant is that 112 is an international emergency number actually in use in Panama. That’s why they used it.T v x1 19:36, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no. The actual text implies "why these girls use the emergency number of the Netherlands, a very very small country in faraway Europe, with a totally uncommon emergency number, while being in Panama??" and is blaming, therefore, the deceased. Stop victim-blaming - sorry I'm disgusted. Using "112" is the right thing to do (in this case, in vain, sadly) Understand? Please accept and modify - or I'll go for it.87.161.103.212 (talk) 12:03, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's have a proposal: Instead of "in the Netherlands" type: "the international commonly used emergency number "112". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.161.103.212 (talk) 12:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

Why does Kremers get mentioned first when Froon comes first alphabetically, is there a reason? 2A00:23C8:5F8D:F001:E094:6BF8:551F:33E3 (talk) 00:06, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Solved?

I watched a youtube but cannot find it anymore, which showed a very detailed analysis and solution, accusing a local young man who was actually working as a policeman and thus had access to the police network. Together with a group of other men, they were intending to kidnap the girls and sell them to a band of traffickers who then sell them on for sex slavery in other countries. This operation went bad, and ended up in rape and then murder. One of the participants of the kidnapping, who decided to opt out was killed as well.

The girls were given a ride back by a red pickup truck, but then instead of going home. were taken to a lake resort where a picture of them was taken by one of the young men, who was killed later on. The girls were to be held in a hut near the lake but were moved to a cave, raped there, and consequently killed.

One of the men who assisted with the follow-up searches by the Dutch girls' parents, was the owner of the red pickup truck and the father of one of the perpetrators.

The owners of a local restaurant were involved in organ trafficking, and the dead girls' parts were sold, presumably using a local hospital for the operation.

In the movie, there is a claimed confession by a woman who was dating one of the perpetrators, who went into hiding and reported the actual details of what had occurred.

If anybody can find this, I will be happy to see it again. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 10:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK found it: here פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 10:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a Reddit discussion saying it's bogus. But no substantiation for that claim either.

"not confirmed" by whom?!

In this article, there are at least to times the statements "this has not been confirmed" and (in the list of phone logs) is an information allegedly "unconfirmed". In both cases it lacks an essential information: BY WHOM it's not confirmed? --2003:E5:771E:725F:FC7C:1729:15B3:E930 (talk) 18:38, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unwarranted assumption about the Pianista hike

Two unwarranted statements from the article:- “who disappeared on 1 April 2014, while hiking the El Pianista trail”, and “around six hours into their hike someone dialed 112”

The only evidence that the girls did not successfully complete their hike and return to their starting point is a) the discovery of the backpack and the remains on the North side of the Mirador. It is possible these were planted there, and b) the lack of any photos of a return journey on the camera. It is very easy to delete photos and hide this by taking more photos which if enough are taken will remove all evidence of the originals.

So we should be careful before stating categorically or even implying that something happened to the girls during the Pianista hike. The evidence may point in that direction, but we are not sure enough to state it as a fact. Johnapolis (talk) 01:25, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence to suggest they completed their hike, the only evidence that exists indicates they stopped taking pictures and signalled for help while *on* their hike. There is zero reason or need to entertain every statistical possibility on wikipedia. Lostsandwich (talk) 04:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New resources in book Still Lost in Panama

Thank you for the invitation to the talk page. As some have noticed, I had already corrected some misinformation in this Wikipedia article, which has been reverted. The reason given was that the information was based on a self-published book. I would like to point out that I, like many other people who have been intensively involved in the case for years, have read the book by German journalists Christian Hardinghaus and Annette Nenner several times in recent weeks. (There is also a German version: Verschollen in Panama). The special thing about this book is that it is the first and only one that quotes from the official judicial files. With exact sources. There is currently no more reliable source.

The case of Kris and Lisanne is characterized by the fact that it is based on myths and false information. Largely fueled by tabloids and youtubers. Without a single scientific citation. Hardinghaus has a doctorate in media studies and Nenner spent six months in Boquete and re-interviewed all the relevant witnesses. In the book, dozens of false information, probably hundreds, can be refuted. Which is also important, because innocent people have been stylized as scapegoats for many years.

As happened recently in the podcast Lost in Panama by Jeremy Kryt and Mariana Atencio. Here, a fictitious crime story is invented around the so-called Pandilla and a swimming photo. To the detriment of the young people concerned, who were interviewed by the authors and whose statements were also checked in the court files.

It is regrettable if this source is not taken seriously because it is self-published. At the beginning of the book, the authors explain why they had no other choice for the investigative research on site. Nenner had to work partly undercover. Hardinghaus has previously published numerous books with renowned German publishers. My suggestion would be to check out the book or contact the authors, if if the rules somehow allow it. Perhaps an article from one of the largest German news channels, n-TV, would help. https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Vertuscht-Panama-das-Verschwinden-von-zwei-Niederlaenderinnen-article24980362.html ReiseBlock (talk) 17:31, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Passport or insurance card?

Jeremy Kryt said in 2024 (https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-lost-girls-of-panama-the-full-story) that Lisanne's passport was found. However, he doesn't specify where he got this info.

Marja West said in 2021 (in the book Verloren in de jungle: De mysterieuze verdwijning van twee Nederlandse meisjes in Panama, not self-published) that Lisanne's insurance card was found. She, on the other hand, quotes directly from the official documents. The official documents also says 87 dollars, while Kryt said 83.

Also, in page 32, she quotes Arturo Alvarado, head of the Sinaproc, about Myriam's house:

"From the photos, we could see that their passports, toothbrushes, and backpacks were still there, so they couldn't have gone very far. Sinaproc was notified 44 hours after the disappearance. We didn't bring in any forensic detectives because no crime had yet been established. They could have just been in a restaurant. We didn't touch anything."

Lisanne's passports were not in the backpack as Kryt claims without showing evidence. 2804:7F0:77C0:7F:D4F9:6F4:E048:BCDC (talk) 18:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want the exact amount, take the original court file. It was found: 87 dollars und 55 cents (3 x 20-dollar bills, 2 x 10-dollar bills, 1 x 5-dollar bill, 2 x 1-dollar bills, 2 x 25-cent coins, 1 x 5-cent coin). Cf. SDIJ: Investigation report of June 12, 2014, p. 730 f. See also Ministerio Publico: Inspection report of June 13, 2014, pp. 748-751. Quoted from Hardinghaus Nenner: Still Lost in Panama, p. 57. ReiseBlock (talk) 21:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]