Talk:Death of Tyra Hunter

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transgender/transgendered

Please leave the word transgender as-is. Transgendered is incorrect and is not, in fact a legitimate way to refer to transgender people. Thanks! 72.67.93.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC).[reply]

What happened to those responsible?

Is there any information on what happened to those withholding medical care and caused her death? At the very least I'd think they'd have been fired. Celynn (talk) 06:30, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In answer to the above question: In either late 1995 or perhaps early 1996, a group of activists were in the DC area for a couple of reasons. I was with this group and wanted to be able to speak with Marion Barry, the mayor at the time, in order to find out the identity of the paramedics/EMT's that were on scene in order to get some explanation as to her treatment. I was successful in talking to Mayor Barry's scheduler in his office upon his morning arrival. A meeting was set up with a "couple" of us with Fire Chief Latin later that day (if my memory serves me, it was that afternoon). We expressed our concerns and wanted to know who was responsible for the lack of medical care and derogatory remarks made at the scene. Fire Chief Latin assured us that a through investigation was being made and that the responsible parties would be held up for disciplinary action. We did call for their dismissal but I for one was not made aware of their ultimate disciplinary action, which is not unusual, unfortunately, in a case like this. We did bring attention to this incident however in front of City Hall where the Mayor's Office is located,, marching back and forth carrying signs noting the egregious treatment of Ms Hunter. We were also successful in getting Mayor Barry on national television, to renounce this treatment of Ms. Hunter and to assure us that he would make sure that the incident was investigated thoroughly. Hope this helps answer somewhat. tbnlh (talk) 23:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why were they not charged with murder? 86.176.217.212 (talk) 02:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Such a good question. It’s not like we didn’t support that but at that time we had to get some accountability against those who were present at the time. We were successful in bringing disciplinary actions against the paramedics who were present as well as getting trans education and sensitivity training into the departments. tbnlh (talk) 16:55, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Washington Post and other sources

...failed to diagnose Hunter's injuries and follow nationally accepted standards of care. The lawsuit alleged in part that Bastien misread X-rays that are now missing, decided against inserting a chest tube to drain blood that pooled near Hunter's heart and did not give Hunter four units of blood that were available.
— https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1998/12/12/death-suit-costs-city-29-million/b8ab4d34-1907-463c-b5d5-64ec00dee2a1/

This Washington Post article makes the court case seem to be more about incompetence than prejudice. It's the first RS I found so there's doubtless more information available.

The Gendercentre Australia article is not a great source, partly because it includes the entire Wikipedia article. It's a dead link, but there is an archive copy here.

There's enough barebones details about the RTA in reliable sources.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 03:59, 14 June 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Inclusion of deadname

I added Hunter's deadname at the start of the year after I expanded her article. Multiple editors have disagreed with my decision and removed it, and I have reverted them by my count four times. Maddy from Celeste has asked me to start a discussion, which I admit I should have done a while ago. I do not want to draw attention to her birth name—putting it in the 'Born' part of the infobox and casually dropping it in the 'Early life' section—but I do want to include it somewhere. MOS:GENDERID does say that articles should not deadname people, but that guideline only applies to living transgender or non-binary people (emphasis mine). There was a discussion earlier this year to expand it to deceased people, but there was no consensus to do that.

My core reason for adding it is because birth names are a biographical piece of information on a person. For non-trans/nb people, we do generally include birthnames and changed names, but trans and NB people deserve extra protections, hence excluding the deadnames from articles on living people. My compromise here is to tuck it away where any harm it does is minimal. I object to putting it in the first sentence's parenthetical, but I also object to excluding it entirely. cc A Socialist Trans Girl & 747never.

I want to be clear: I'm not doing this with ill intent. People on the internet and real life will lob deadnames around as a weapon, and it upsets me too. She should still be alive if it wasn't for the discrimination she faced by emergency services that likely led to hear death. SWinxy (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gah, I forgot the part about deceased people being excluded from the general rule! Just today I was wondering how everything felt so easy after my lengthy period of semi-inactivity! Anyways, I don't think the deadname here has any biographical importance, given she came out as trans at 15 (9 years before her death). I don't think it thus has any real importance to undertanding the events surrounding her death (the topic of the article), or the life of Tyra Hunter. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 21:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The result of the NOCON RfCs is that consensus on this matter is per-article, up to an RfC if we really have to. I argued against inclusion in the relevant RfCs, and oppose it here on principle: non-notable (and, in Tyra's case, long-discarded) deadnames strike me as WP:TRIVIA, akin to one's phone number, home address, or underwear color. Publishing them serves only malicious and morbid purposes, without enhancing a lay readers' understanding.

I would be interested in an analysis of whether reliable sources (ideally retrospective rather than contemporary ones) publish Tyra's deadname. Most of the citations on this article are to books which I cannot instantly access. Of the web sources, only the Washington Post does.

The AP Stylebook (quickly becoming a favorite cite of mine in LGBTQ/MOS disputes) advises writers to include deadnames very rarely and only if required to understand the news, or if requested by the person. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 21:06, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RoxySaunders I don't believe that whether or not reliable sources publish her deadname is relevant, since 1. the sources from the time might (idk if they are) be biased towards due to society being generally less pro-trans than today, and 2. the MOS says Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.

also, i might use the AP stylebook in discussions of the topic in future, thanks! (✿◠‿◠) A Socialist Trans Girl 04:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the book chapter "Trans Necropolitics" in The Transgender Studies Reader Remix (2023), on page 69, C. Riley Snorton and Jin Haritaworn use her deadname a few times, highlighting that it was used in media reports about her death. They also highlight her mother using it in speaking to the WaPo. The original Studies Reader (2006) does not appear to use the deadname. So, surprisingly to me, it is still being published. SWinxy (talk) 17:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SWinxy 1. I don't think the MOS actually says anything about including it for deaseased people, only it only mentions excluding it for living people.

2. I don't see how it adds any useful information that's relevant at all.

I have two questions: 1. In what way do you believe it is relevant/useful/important information to the article? 2. Why do you object tò excluding it entirely? A Socialist Trans Girl 04:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see it as a biographical detail, akin to where someone was born, grew up, or like how when people change their surname (typically marriage) or given name. The difference being the potential for harm, hence the preference for exclusion for living people. SWinxy (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SWinxy I don't see how it's really relevant any more than like the name of a childhood pet or something. I don't understand how it benefits the article to include it. A Socialist Trans Girl 08:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno how I can put it differently. It just would be encyclopedic to me in my mind. SWinxy (talk) 02:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SWinxy (sorry for late reply!) Well that doesn't seem like a very good basis for inclusion. There seems to be much better arguments for excluding it than for including it, and more support for it too. Do you think there's WP:CONSENUS (i.e, an effort to address editors legitimate concerns has been made and achieved) against inclusion?

I would like to say, I do appreciate how you've handled this, with the ceasing of edit warring and taking to talk page and admitting you should've started a discussion earlier, as well as just generally being civil. Thank you for that. A Socialist Trans Girl 23:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If someone wasn't already notable under the name, then I don't see why it should be included. Living or deceased, if there's no particular note of the name, then it is extraneous information. Silver seren^C 23:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]