Talk:Dean Karlan

Starting off

I've removed some of the tags that I added onto this page, bu there are still some to take care of.

• First, Shardulkoza, what's your association to the professor? Are you a conflict of interest in any way?
• As to neutrality, I think this page reads a little bit like a fansite. It reads like just an outpouring for him, though maybe I'm reading a bit too much into that.

I moved a bunch of sections around and did some general cleanup, so that's okay now too, I think. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It appears that Shardulkoza hasn't yet noticed the above question, although this edit indicates an affiliation with Yale at least.

69.0.45.172, who has taken up work on this article instead, also added a lengthy description of Karlan's views to Microfinance and changed the StickK article to cut out Ian Ayres as co-founder of that company (making Karlan appear as the sole founder), contradicting several reliable sources.

All in all, while the subject is certainly notable and the text already contains useful cited information, the COI tag seems to be justified for the moment.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 05:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

That isn't an accurate description of the edit made. The edit removed the word "founder" entirely, so in that sense it didn't cut out any one person as "founder", or if it did, it cut out all 3. But the sidebar remained, and there all 3 were described under the "founders" tab. What it did is simply report the process in which the company was started, and which media have accurately reported (with one exception, and even that one exception the only error is quite subtle, with the use of the word "based", but the editors are choosing to amplify that one word from one media report into the main line describing the key insight behind the creation of the company). Ayres' own book has stated the facts correctly, and contradicts the way the editors are choosing to report this here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.0.45.172 (talk • contribs) 13:29, March 6, 2010

The edits to the stickK page were reconciled with the "about us" page on the stickK website itself, which should be considered more reliable than the media sources reported. Furthemore, Ayres was not removed as a co-Founder, but the description was simply made factually accurate, again in line with the stickK website's about us page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.85.211 (talk) 16:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not how Wikipedia works. Per WP:PSTS, secondary sources are preferred over primary sources. Per WP:V, sourced statements always take precedent over unsourced ones. You don't get to remove parts of the text like that, especially if they have references. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I see, thanks for explaining. So here is a better secondary source: http://www.economist.com/business-finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_TDGGTQQN. The wiki page as of now does not accurately capture the NPR article, either, in that Ayres' "bet" was done after he joined stickK, not before. There is no source that states his personal bet as the inspiration for the website. But as I'm unaware of the rules for wikipedia, I prefer to inform you, and let you make the judgement how to report this on the page. I hope that is ok. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.85.211 (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I believe the NPR article has been accurately summarized in that respect. It reads:

The concept behind StickK grew out of Ayres' experience with losing weight, only to gain it back again. He didn't want his wife nagging him to stay on track, so he hired a student to send him reminder e-mails and verify that he'd eaten and exercised as much as he'd pledged. (....) In addition, Ayres bet Dean Karlan $500 a week that he'd lose 20 pounds. Karlan says he was happy to take the bet, though he had a hunch he'd never win a dime of his friend's money.

The current version of stickK says:

The concept is based on two principles from behavioral economics, loss aversion and time inconsistency, and Ayres' personal experience of losing weight by having regular reminder emails sent to him and entering a bet with Karlan.

Admittedly, other media reports from the time describe it a bit differently. The 2007 NY Sun article starts out with Karlan using the method (although it doesn't say either that Ayres' "bet" was done after he joined stickK). So in this case it is not impossible that it was an error by National Public Radio. Have they published a retraction?

Your objections on the founder issue (which is amusingly reminiscent of Wikipedia'a own...) seem to be based on differentiating between starting and founding a company. I would regard the two as mostly synonymous, but perhaps you want to explain your interpretation in more detail.

By the way, we should probably copy this part of the conversation to Talk:StickK.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi HaeB: No, NPR did not retract, but I doubt anyone ever told them they got it wrong. It is a subtle difference, but made more prominent the way it is reported on the wiki site, in my opinion (and sorry for my above comment, you are right, that is how the NPR article reads, I had confused it with another but should have gone back). As you noticed, the other media differ with NPR. Anyhow, the three founders (or Founder and co-Founders... semantics, as you said) are consistent on this: perhaps this helps, a secondary media source, LA Times, but that is written with Ayres as the by-line (an op-ed) http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/27/opinion/op-ayres27. I really didn't intend to start a whole exchange on this, I just saw a mistake and corrected it. As I said though, I'll stay out of editing due to COI, and sign off now and leave this in your hands to do as you feel is in line with wikipedia policy. No need to move this conversation over, since I'm not sure I have more to say...thanks for your efforts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.0.45.172 (talk) 07:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks like another useful reference. I'll attempt to rewrite that part to integrate the slightly differing accounts in a neutral fashion soon. You are always welcome to point out shortcoming of the articles and suggest improvements on the talk pages. Regards, HaeB (talk) 09:35, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I missed something here. What is the proposed change to be made to stickK? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Anything that solves the issue of the slightly conflicting media reports about who of the founders tried these experiments first. You can also have a go at it if you like. Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The main edit was really about the word "inspired" (the details of how the company was founded, and how the different co-founders joined, is only citable by citing the stickK website, not a media source, so that was removed). The media seem to mostly get it all right, except for one word in one report, the NPR, which incorrectly states the "inspiration' as being Ayres' contract, whereas from the other reports, and the website, and Ayres' own writing, I think has been made clear that Ayres' personal experience is what made the idea ring true to him and made him excited to join as a co-Founder. Frankly it would seem easier to just not say anything about the personal contracts, as it is not really the relevant history. Those are, after all, not the inspiration, but rather the manifestation of the same underlying idea about using incentives to correct one's own habits. So it seems odd to me to list them there at all, but if they are listed, the edit I made was to simply correct them with respect to timing and "inspiration". But as I said in my last post, I'm hesistant after what I have learned from this experience to make direct edits. So all I'll do is suggest, I hope that is ok, and leave it to you two (and I guess others in the future) to decide:

Change: "The concept is based on two principles from behavioral economics, loss aversion and time inconsistency, and Ayres' personal experience of losing weight by having regular reminder emails sent to him and entering a bet with Karlan.[5] Karlan also tested the method himself, and the two professors recruited Jordan Goldberg..."

to either a more complete (and cited) version here:

"The concept is based on two principles from behavioral economics, loss aversion and time inconsistency, and Karlan's experience in 2000 losing weight in a contract with a graduate school friend (the proper cite there would be Ayres's paperback copy of his book Supercrunchers, and/or Nudge by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein, and/or the LA Times op-ed), as well as Karlan's research on commitment savings behavior in the Philippines with Nava Ashraf and Wesley Yin (cite: Tying Odysseus to the Mast: Evidence from a Commitment Savings Product in the Philippines (May 2006) Quarterly Journal of Economics, 121(2), pp. 635-672; and also cited by Ayres' in SUpercrunchers when he discusses the inspiration behind stickK). Ayres also used commitment contract to lose weight the year stickK was founded, and had previously used a nagging service to help him stay on task (cite NPR and Ayres' book and LA Times). The two professors recruited Jordan Goldberg."

or,

An alternative frankly is to simply remove the entirety about the personal experiences, since it really is the research and intellectual theory, and not the personal experience, that "inspired" the creation of the business. The personal experience is simply more engaging to media, and hence typically reported, but certainly that isn't the way I think any of the founders themselves ever really describe the inspiration for starting the business.

Also, a side-note, but the edit to microfinance simply copied text from the microcredit page and moved it over, it seemed odd to me to put it in one but not the other. That was not original text or cites.

I really will sign off at this point, and leave it for you to decide, or let me know if you want me to correct this. Thanks for your efforts to fix the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.0.45.172 (talk) 21:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

COI?

Hello Annyong,

I am currently working as an unpaid intern at Innovations for Poverty Action, a research outfit that Dean Karlan co-founded. I have no affiliation with Yale University whatsoever. I am not compensated financially by IPA nor have I been instructed to create a Wikipedia page for Dean Karlan. I simply thought that he should have a Wikipedia page given his prominence in the field of international development. If you think the tone of the article violates neutrality standards, I would be glad to change the sections which you think are questionable. Shardulkoza (talk) 21:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Shardulkoza, thanks for the clarification about your affiliation. I am still a bit puzzled why you added that Yale boilerplate text to File:Dean Karlan.jpg, but perhaps the copyright permission issue with that photo can be resolved somehow.

It's true that financial connections are among the most problematic ones with respect to conflicts of interest, but even unpaid interns are to some degree dependent on their employers, who can have an impact on their career.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello HaeB,

I thought adding the text would help the image meet the copyright restrictions. Can the neutrality tag be removed now that you and others have made edits to the page.

Best,

Shardulkoza (talk) 14:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. I haven't made any edits to this page (check the version history) and what's more, NPOV is not about who has and has not edited an article, it is about the content. Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I think Shardulkoza meant to remove the COI tag from the top. Might be okay to do so at this point... — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 13:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed that is what I meant. Can the COI tag be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.14.163.89 (talk) 14:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed that is what I meant. Can the COI tag be removed.

Shardulkoza (talk) 14:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I just removed the tags. This article is fine now, I think. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)