Talk:David Garrard (property developer)/Archives/2018

Lunch sponsorship

The subject of this BLP apparently sponsors a lunch. Once a year. In a 6-sentence biography, adding another sentence about sponsorship of an annual lunch seems... disproportionate. WP:UNDUE, in fact. It's not notable, or worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. One might be forgiven for thinking an editor had an agenda of pointing out Jewish connections whenever he could, as if there were some sort of grand secret conspiracy. WP:NOTHERE. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:13, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Think you've read the Protocols one too many times, pal. The Labour Friends of Israel is an open political lobby group, not a secret conspiracy and mainstream press (including Jewish community newspapers) are quite open about the fact that Garrard funds their annual meetings. Given that these meetings are attended by top level members of the Labour Party, including in the past party leaders, this is absolutely notable. This isn't just a quiet dinner party attended by people nobody has heard of, but an annual meeting attended by people who have political power in a country. Claíomh Solais (talk) 22:50, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Protocols? See, if it was a secret conspiracy dinner, then it might indeed be notable. Right now, though? No. "Top level members of the Labour Party" meet hundreds of people a week. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:12, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

May 2018

Gunn Ben 66, perhaps listen to other editors? You have no WP:CONSENSUS for the inclusion of unsourced material. Simply saying it's sourced doesn't make it true. If you are going to make additions to a WP:BLP, sourcing should be available - if it isn't, the item being added probably doesn't need to be in the BLP. It's possible to make additions without making them sound like WP:PUFFERY. I am not owning this page, though your admonition to "stop interfering with this page" sounds like you have ambitions in that direction. Do we have a WP:COI? "Refrain from any sexual/sexual orientation references on Wikipedia." I have no idea wtf that bizarre comment is referring to! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:26, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Involvement with Labour Party[edit]

Dear Fellow Wikipedians,

I would like to suggest some changes to the Wiki page of David Garrard (Property). Taking advice from other fellow editors, I would like to reach a Consensus, see Wikipedia:Consensus by rewording some of the following paragraphs that could be deemed contentious material and potentially libellous. The information has been provided by reliable third-party sources. For the avoidance of doubt, I have not got a conflict of interest WP:COI with the subject nor am I representing him, I am merely suggesting that the content is of a more neutral tone, see Neutral point of view (NPOV) in particular regarding the alleged secrecy of his loans to the Labour Party. The references remain the same as per the live Wiki page.

Before the 2005 General Election Garrard provided the Labour Party with a loan of £2.3 million at a time when loans on commercial terms did not have to be declared,[9] to be repaid on 28 April 2007. The loan was later alleged to have been provided “secretly” and Garrard withdrew his nomination for a peerage.[9][11][12] The loan was extended, and Garrard eventually called for it to be repaid in 2015, in a reaction against the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party.[13]

In 2013, Garrard hosted a visit to Israel by eleven Labour MPs, including Shadow Defence Secretary Jim Murphy, Shadow Defence Minister Gemma Doyle, Labour Friends of Israel Chair Anne McGuire and Vice-Chair Louise Ellman.[14] He also jointly sponsored Labour Friends of Israel meetings, including a speech by Labour leader Ed Miliband.[15][16] In 2014, Garrard donated £500,000 to the Labour party, one of the largest private donations under Ed Miliband's leadership.[9] This received criticism of "double standards" when the media reported that Garrard had placed shares in an offshore trust to avoid tax, although there was no suggestion in Garrard’s case that he had done anything unlawful or improper.[17] Garrard left the Labour Party while it was under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, over the party's response to antisemitism by the end of March 2018.[18] Ben Gunn (talk) 08:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Reply 9-JUL-2018

COI edit requests are specifically for instances where the editor involved has professed being under a conflict of interest. As you have stated no such conflict, the template's usage here is unnecessary for discerning a WP:CONS for these changes. Regards,  spintendo  10:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Philanthropy

Dear Fellow Wikipedians,

I would like to propose an insert of a new section onto the Wiki page of David Garrard (property developer) under 'Philanthropy' The below content will be verified using some of the current references used in the live 'Honours' section.

From his early twenties Garrard became deeply involved in charitable activities, the first of which was Handicapped Children’s Aid (now Lifeline 4 Kids), of which he remains the principal Patron.

Amongst his other philanthropic activities, Garrard has been a director of the Princes Trust Business Division and is a Trustee of the Police Foundation.

In 2002, with the financial contribution of £2.5 million, he also became the Sponsor and the Developer of the first ever newly developed Academy in England which permitted the establishment of a primary and secondary seat of learning under one “roof”. Bexley Business Academy of which Garrard chaired its governing body – now known as the Harris Garrard Academy – became the flagship of the “all-through” Academy Programme in England.

I look forward to any response. Thank you. Ben Gunn (talk) 12:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Ben Gunn, You first need to address the conflict of interest (COI) raised at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_129#David_Garrard_(property_developer). Edwardx (talk) 13:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Dear Edwardx, I think you'll find in the history that I did respond to this accusation of COI and I (again) addressed this issue when I posted 'Involvement with the Labour Party' on this very same Talk Page. Ben Gunn (talk) 13:28, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the issue was discussed on the COI noticeboard here, and found that there was indeed a COI. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:30, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

No, this was hardly be classed as a discussion. I was accused of a COI and as a matter of transparency, I then explained the situation and there wasn't a COI.

Nevertheless, I've previously used the Talk page to make changes (Involvement with the Labour Party) and see no reason why it can't be done again, using the same process. As stated, the paragraph will be correctly referenced and I will also use some of the current references on the live page. Ben Gunn (talk) 16:55, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Ben Gunn, from the COI noticeboard it is clear that you have a conflict of interest, and your denying it hardly encourages us volunteer editors to want to engage with your proposed changes to the article. Edwardx (talk) 17:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Edwardx, Lest we forget, I am also a volunteer editor and the conduct of some of the other editors hardly encourages new users to Wikipedia to volunteer to insert factually correct and accurate information. Ben Gunn (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

If those new users have obvious CoIs that they refuse to acknowledge, while also trying to insert yet more "deeply" peacock terms, then sadly no, they're not welcome to edit. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:46, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! And if those old users attempt to police Wikipedia with churlish comments like 'deeply peacock' then sadly, those same comments are not welcome either.

The request edit remains in place. This is the whole point of using the Talk page and to gain Census. The new/proposed wording is very similar to that of the inappropriate Honours section and I will use some the same references as in the Honours but also add the following reference that I believes covers everything: http://www.police-foundation.org.uk/about/trustees-patrons-and-associates/. Please scroll down to Sir David Garrard's paragraph.

Certainly not deeply peacock or puffery, whichever term you want to use...'deep regards' :-) Ben Gunn (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

So why state, then, that Garrard was "deeply involved in charitable activities" (my emphasis), rather than "Garrard has been involved in charitable activities"? Neutral language, not WP:PEACOCK language. Incidentally he's not listed as a member on the Lifeline 4 Kids website, or indeed mentioned on the site, that I can find. References would be useful. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:19, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Agree. Too much WP:PUFF in the statements. Please rewrite to make it sound more neutral. Any independent references? JoJoODwy (talk) 14:10, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Bastun Im not sure what agenda you're on but you mentioned 'deeply' as puffery or WP:PEACOCK. I made the changes to satisfy you.... So why didn't you bother to comment on the rest of the article....youve had plenty of time to do this. Also, the Life Line 4 Kids is cited, it is mentioned on the reference. If you had bothered to read it properly, you would have seen it states Patron of Lifeline4Kids and Member of the Development Advisory Council of the University of Birmingham. What more do you want? Stand by! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunn Ben 66 (talk • contribs) 20:34, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean by "stand by"? Is that something to do with the email you sent me, where you said - apparently in all seriousness - that you'd travel to meet me and bring a lawyer? (And yet we're still supposed to believe you have no conflict of interest? Pull the other one...)

You're right, I missed the reference to Lifeline4kids in the citation supplied, among all the marketing speak which you liberally borrowed from. The other issues remain: "The first of which", "Amongst his other philanthropic activities" is all puffery. "Seat of learning" == a school. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:10, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Bastun: Stand by - meaning 'wait out'. You appear to be Ireland based and I often travel to Dublin/Belfast, hence my offer to meet. Lawyer - yes. A delightful occupation which has served me well. I notice that there are 'editor forums/meetings' were individuals can come out from behind their PC's. Transparency for me is everything!

Yes, I liberally borrowed the references...isnt that the whole point of Wikipedia? Looking at other Wiki pages, Im amazed just how much puffery is going on..... Ben Gunn (talk) 15:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC)