Talk:David Fishwick/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: Launchballer (talk · contribs) 22:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 23:22, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After a quick read of the lead, I am super interested in this story! Looking forward to reviewing. It is a wonderful world (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose (Criteria 1a, 1b, 4) clock

Lead

After finding that customers were coming to him having tangled with payday loan firms: This is very broad and the word "tangled" lacks formality. If the sources allow it (which they should if this is to be included in the lead), precisely define the issue the customers were having with the payday loan firms. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed "tangled with" to "used".--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure this is quite right, "used" does not reflect the fact that the customers were in trouble with the payday loan firms, which is central to the point. I think "having accumulated debt" would be much more precise. It is a wonderful world (talk) 10:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to "accumulating debt after using".--Laun chba ller 10:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both of these ~~Channel 4~~ series: Already mentioned, conciseness It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cut.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Early life and automotives

He left school at sixteen [years old] with no qualifications: Clarity, formality It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to "aged sixteen", as I think this is more concise.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After a day's work, he and his co-workers would visit the local fish and chip shop in Hallam Road in Nelson; he told Holly Mead of The Times in June 2024 that his dinners at the time comprised a chip butty, and that he wanted but could not afford steak pudding, chips, peas and gravy. He decided he wanted to no longer be poor after an incident at that shop aged sixteen in which he discovered after ordering that he was three pence short, prompting the cashier to bin a handful of his already salted and vinegared chips.: I think all of this is unnecessary detail, and should be cut or at least trimmed to a quarter of its size. Additionally, the YouTube video source, while technically fine to use here, lacks reliability so its use should be limited. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've cut most of the first sentence; his motivation for going into business is surely relevant.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After ~~finding that he wanted~~[choosing] to enter: Conciseness It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

he went from garage to garage asking -> "He asked several garages": Formality It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's unclear what "a part-exchanged car" is. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's paying for new car with money and a second hand car. I've added a wikilink.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His first part-exchange was a Vauxhall Cavalier that had flat tires and lots of scratches, which he advertised in the local paper for £100 and sold for £97: Although it is included in the blockquote, the text should also include how much Fishwick paid the garage for it. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added. I'm tempted to swap the blockquote with the one from The Times, the one beginning "I remember".--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You could. I do like the block quote how it is, but am not oppose to changing it. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Djing" is really informal and should be replaced with something like "Performing as a DJ", and I think DJ should be linked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to "performing as a disk jockey".--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

he would also spend -> "he also spent": conciseness It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Around this time, he would also spend his mornings selling cheap clothes for a profit and his evenings DJing; he met his future wife while working at a nightclub after she told him his music was rubbish and he told her she could pick a record so long as she wrote her phone number on its sleeve.: The bit after the semi-colon is a bit long here, and it has no punctuation! This makes it very hard to read. I think it should be split into two separate sentences, and the second part should be restructured and punctuated. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Split; if I'm reading WP:CINS correctly the second half didn't need a comma, but I've reworded it anyway.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the rewording much better. For future reference, "he told her she could pick a record so long as she wrote her phone number on its sleeve" is a full sentence, containing a noun and verb, so WP:CINS says it should have a comma in front of it. Maybe I am the one missing something here though? It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think you're right.--Laun chba ller 11:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"music" -> "music taste" It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what the source says. Changed to "the music he was playing".--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not clear what a "minicoach" is, I have never heard of it at least. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the context makes it clear that a "minicoach" is a small coach. It would be silly to add a link as minicoach redirects to minibus.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is the name of the helicopter business? It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bank of Dave and Loan Ranger

I think link "2007–2008 financial crisis", since we are so far away from where it was last linked, and it is likely people will skip to this section. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is "existential threat" a little strong here? It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source says "almost wrecked", so no.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"he looked into setting up a bank himself, where he discovered that although obtaining a consumer credit license was simple enough, obtaining a deposit-taking license required a minimum of £10,000,000 to be kept in reserve[1] under Financial Conduct Authority regulations.": I don't see why this is relevant. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because it's the literal reason why he opened a peer-to-peer lender rather than a bank.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I didn't know that a peer-to-peer lender was different from a bank, which was the source of my confusion. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He later opened Burnley Savings and Loans in September 2011 in that town centre's Keirby Walk -> "He later opened Burnley Savings and Loans on Keirby Walk in the town center" flows much better It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly incorporated; this is British English, so it should be "centre".--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"immortalised" is not neutral, "documented" would be better It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was the memoir another TV program, or media in another format? It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a book, which I've added to the article. I point blank refuse to add adjacent references on accessibility grounds (see WP:BUNDLING) but if necessary I can merge them into one citation.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think a citation should be added, up to you how to implement it. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:11, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now that is a fair cop. Added.--Laun chba ller 11:16, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't "best feature and factual entertainment programme" be capitalized? I'm also not sure whether it should have quotes or not? It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should be capitalised, should not have quotes. Added the former.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

after finding that young people were coming to him -> "after young people came to him" It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

after falling into a spiral of debt: Too dramatic, something like "after accumulating debt" would be better It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"getting involved with" -> "engaging" It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a comma before the "and" (WP:CINS) It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done, see next point.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and that said firms were lending to people who were underage, mentally ill, and even drunk: Assuming this is a criminal charge, unless the payday loan companies have been convicted of this change, the wording needs to be changed to specify that this is just a "claim". Stating as a fact that the firms are guilty of this when they have not actually been convicted is libel. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fishwick attributes Citizen's Advice, so cut.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fishwick was approached by Piers Ashworth: Cut the name "Piers Ashworth" assuming he is not notable, and replace his name with the organisation he represented. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per that source, Ashworth also wrote the first draft script of Mission Impossible, so WP:BLPNAME does not apply.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case I am fine keeping the name, but I think the text should definitely also include the organisation Piers was representing (assuming Netflix?). The name with no context is confusing, even if the context is added later. Also, consider linking Piers Ashworth if he is notable enough. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He appears to be under The Agency, although I can't find that in any secondary sources and so don't regard it as due. I believe adding 'screenwriter' before his name should take some of the edge off.--Laun chba ller 12:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"and ~~was~~[is planned to be] loosely based on his experiences" It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"to star in a musical version of Bank of Dave": To be produced by whom? It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably Future Artists Entertainment, but attributing just in case.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other media appearances

"open a employment agency": "a" -> "an" It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Fishwick was dropped": "was" -> "would be" It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

intended for 2014: Did this show ever actually happen? The text should either cut "intended" or state what happened to it. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't find a source saying it definitely happened; the Shoppers Guide to Saving Money source does not list it and common sense says it probably won't have sat on the shelf for that long, so let's go with "this did not make it to broadcast".--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

he presented "Can Property Pay Your Wages": Who produced this, and who televised it? It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All aired on Channel 4; the closest I can find for a production company for any of the 2015-2017 Channel 4 sources is that Warner Bros were involved with Shoppers, so added what I have.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and then the consumer series Shoppers Guide to Saving Money: Same as above It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See above.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your Money And Your Life, a daytime consumer show presented: Same as above... It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See above.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Dave's Guide to Spending": Italic not quotes, for consistency It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See above.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources clock

Health/formatting (Criterion 2a) clock

None of the links are currently broken, but the web sources were extremely vulnerable to link rot. I added archive links. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suspected you was coming here when I saw you adding them. Is WP:IABOT back up yet?--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Am I really that conspicuous? Haha. I don't know if IABOT can be used to add archives to non-dead links? If it did, that would be amazing. There are several disadvantaged to waiting until the source is dead to archive it though. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the authors and dates were missing. I added them. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[3] needs to have timestamps for each reference. It can't be expected that the reader search the whole podcast just to verify one claim. Before doing this though, see the main conciseness point above about the first paragraph in "Early life and automotives". It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added, although that particular video had a transcript.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliability (Criterion 2b) clock

The self-published YouTube video obviously has weak reliability, but it is not used to support any WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims, so according to WP:ABOUTSELF, it is fine to use in this context. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of the other sources are local news, national news or TV news sites, I see no concerns for reliability here. Additionally, the exceptional claims are all supported by national news. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot check (Criteria 2b, 2c, 2d) clock

Will do when I have time! It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1]: Y

[2a]: Y

[3]: Y

[6a]: Y

[6b]: Y

[6c]: Y

[12]: Y

[13]: Y

[19]: Y

[24]: Y

[35]: Y

Well done for keeping such good source-text integrity! It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio (Criterion 2d) clock

Earwig finds no copyvio, will check further on the spot check. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scope (Criteria 3a, 3b) clock

Since Bank of Dave was the ninth most searched film that year, I think a paragraph on its critical reception should exist somewhere on the encyclopedia. I think this article is a great place to put it, unless the film is notable enough for its own article. It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has its own article. I've added a wikilink.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Stable (Criterion 5) Y

Media clock

The podcast needs to be clipped to be concise for the reader (WP:NOTREPOSITORY), and the clip should directly add to the content of the article. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from the fact that I have absolutely no idea how to do that (if I did, I'd have carried out this request before it ran at DYK), I don't see how that policy disallows that video; it prohibits only media "that are useful only when presented with their original, unmodified wording" and there is no way that a video of any length involving Fishwick talking about almost nothing other than his life qualifies as that.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this guideline doesn't explicitly prohibit this use case. I still don't think the inclusion of the full length video is encyclopaedic, because it adds so much new information, rather than primarily aiding with the understanding of the text. Having said that, I cannot find any guideline for the inclusion of video as I can for inclusion of images (MOS:IMAGES). I think this may be a case for a third opinion. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By all means ask at WT:GAN. I suspect that guideline may be in place as lengthy texts take up a lot of room on the page; videos do not.--Laun chba ller 12:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will put this up for third opinion. Besides this issue, I think the article is ready for GA. It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tags (Criterion 6a) Y

Tagged appropriately It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Captions (Criterion 6b) clock

The caption of the podcast clip will need to be changed after it is clipped. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions (not needed for GA promotion)

2007–2008: These date ranges should use an "en dash" rather than a hyphen, per MOS:DASH It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That range is part of the title of the article. If it needs to be changed here, then the article needs to move.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am such an idiot aha! This date range already uses the appropriate en-dash, I copied the wrong date range. I was referring to the "2012-2013" date range. It is a wonderful world (talk) 11:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The monetary amounts such as "£27.50" would benefit from having a modern day equivalent adjusted for inflation added. Template:inflation is designed for this. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

autumn 2013: Too vague (MOS:SEASON) It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Autumn 2013 is what the source says and context makes it clear which autumn is being referred to.--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See MOS:LQ, and apply the guidance to the full stops at the ends of quotations. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is mainly a stylistic preference, but I have never seen a footnote used just to contain two references. I think it would be simpler just to have the two references. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please Ctrl+F this page for "adjacent".--Laun chba ller 15:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Curious, did you pay to get access to The Times, or is there a way to get it for free? It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I used Archive.ph. I plan on actioning this in as few swoops as possible, so ping me when done.--Laun chba ller 01:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Now I have another question... Is there any particular reason you use archive.ph over archive.org? Just curious to learn something.

I have finished the first stage of the review. Ping me when you have addressed all the points :) It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fewer clicks more than anything else.--Laun chba ller 13:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Launchballer, I have addressed all your replies. If I didn't reply, that just means I agree and am happy with how it is. It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]