Talk:Daire Keogh

Daire Keogh has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: November 16, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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Name - orthography

Some sources, incl. DCU itself, use Daire ([1], etc.), while others have a sineadh fada on the a (Dáire). It would be good to clarify which is the more proper form. SeoR (talk) 20:25, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Like most Irish people he’s probably legally named in English, so Daire. But he may prefer the Irish-language form.91.193.178.12 (talk) 09:14, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was the convention then for many teachers, and people involved with teaching, to "Irish-ise" their names, whatever was on their birth certs. It sometimes went to ridiculous lengths, with names "hacked" to similar but linguistically irrelevant forms. So adding a fada accent to Daire is nothing. Current legal documents show the name without fadas and so this is probably its true form.91.193.179.177 (talk) 11:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further needs

This is a quick start but more detail is needed on early life, work as an academic historian, and perhaps the DCU Dep. President role. One news article mentioned an address to DCU staff due 16 July and brief citation from this might also be useful, but no significant crystal ball material. SeoR (talk) 08:45, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From Stepaside, a remote southern suburb of Dublin?91.193.178.12 (talk) 09:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, Rathfarnham. There may be another Dara or Daire Keogh from the other place. Daire Keogh's family had a pub in the city centre, but lived in Rathfarnham and Keogh returned there after his peregrinations through UK and US academia. He and his wife are both active supporters of one of the local music groups. Prof Keogh also published something about local history with Tallaght Library. 79.104.7.178 (talk) 09:49, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This would contribute to answering my query above but can only be added to or retained in the article if it is supported by referencing. Can you help with a newspaper article, journal article header or other good source? SeoR (talk) 16:31, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In response to a query on the U-Arizona and Notre Dame posts, while some references mention one or both as if current, checks on the websites of both institutions do not support this (staff lists, fellowship pages, etc.), but any referenced material, including more on the nature and scope of these posts could only enhance the article. SeoR (talk) 23:20, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could you add some summary of his research conclusions, or was his work more aimed at introducing the facts to the public and post-grad students? I remember him taking a position in letters or opinion pieces, on such topics as the contribution of the CBs or on industrial schools; does Wikipedia include that sort of point?91.193.179.177 (talk) 11:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Social media

An interesting question arises from an IP edit of last week - especially as Wikipedia does accept social media figures ("Youtubers" and similar) as article-worthy phenomena. Should we include mention of the social media activities of a serious academic and university head, especially Twitter which is by nature lacking deep content? And further, this addition cites a source which apparently meters Tweeting - is this useful information (maybe it is when activity is very frequent, such as c. twice a day), and is the site used, twaku, a suitable source? And if so, what is the best section? Where we discuss a public figure, it does not fit in Personal Life, but at the same time, especially for aan academic, I'm not sure about having it in Publications. Input welcome... SeoR (talk) 23:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Daire Keogh/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Right cite (talk · contribs) 01:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll read this one over. Right cite (talk) 01:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of November 16, 2020, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: There were some problems with short paragraphs, and odd sections about twitter. I took the liberty of doing some copyediting myself in the capacity as the good article reviewer. With these improvements the quality is better and the article is good. They were minor copyedits here and there anyways.

2. Verifiable?: Every fact in the article is cited to reliable sources. These include news media, newspaper sources, academic sources, education sites, and journal articles.

3. Broad in coverage?: Covers all major aspects of the person's life and career. I like the early life and education and the personal life. I really like the list of publications, that is great and very encyclopedic.

4. Neutral point of view?: The wording style comes across to the reader in a neutral tone. The writing style is matter-of-fact and clear cut. The article meets WP:NPOV.

5. Stable? Please keep out the thing about twitter as that is unencyclopedic. Otherwise, stability looks good. I looked through the article talk page and I'm seeing polite back and forth to improve the article together.

6. Images?: No images used. Therefore, meets the good article criteria by default. Consider trying to obtain a free use image. Not required. Good job overall.

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it Good article reassessed. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.— Right cite (talk) 20:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the initiator, one of the further editors, and nominator, thank you, most helpful. Noted re. keeping paragraphs more robust, and the copyediting - and special thanks re. Twitter, I had my own questions there, and this is clarified. I am chasing an image but no luck yet. SeoR (talk) 22:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Minor page amends

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

What I think should be changed:

I would like the following sentence changed from: Early life and education Daire (sometimes written Dáire) Keogh was born to Peter and Cora Keogh of Rathfarnham,[4] and has four brothers and a sister. to Daire (sometimes written Dáire) Keogh was born in Rathfarnham,[4].

I would like these sentence removed: Early life and education His father owned and ran Peter's Pub between South William Street and St Stephen's Green in central Dublin.[5]

Personal life They have four children[48] and live in the Dublin suburb of Rathfarnham, where they support a local musical group[49] and Prof. Keogh has written on aspects of local history.[44]

Why it should be changed:

The above personal information is too detailed, we would appreciate it if you focus on the academic side on remove reference to family and home life.

References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Heenans-web (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I'm new here too, though I've been reading for years. I think you might need to compare this article with others before suggesting that the detail is somehow OTT. It's really rather a short article for a high-profile public figure. It seems to be routine, also in the likes of Encyclopedia Britannica, to mention parentage and numbers of siblings, as well as marital status and numbers of children. I'm not sure about the pub, but I guess it was a fairly well-known place. The fact of writing a book seems an obvious inclusion for an academic, and the more interesting if it is about a person's home area, no? Perhaps the most important thing, however, would be the fact that everything here seems to be in the public domain anyway. Rcarter74 (talk) 16:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

Hello Heenans-web, and thanks for engaging with Wikipedia in this proper manner. I think I understand that you work for DCU (this is the "we" referred to?), and your wording in the history seems to indicate that you act on the instructions of the article subject. On that point, I simply note that article subjects do not in any sense "own" or have an ability to "direct" the content of relevant articles, but inputs are always welcome - and I would hope that this engagement might also mean that Professor Keogh or a delegate might also like to contribute new quality material. A donation of quality photography would be great, for example. I will not accept or decline the requests, as I was a significant editor in the formation of this article, but I will add brief comments here for a non-involved editor to consider. I see no reason to alter the very brief mentions of parents and family, these are normal for a biography, and non-intrusive. Brief mention of the home suburb (an area of >20,000 population), which also relates to a published work, seems balanced. The parental business was mentioned in several sources, perhaps as an illustration of social mobility, perhaps as the place had some repute - I don't know, and have no strong position on this inclusion. As to the local band, it is an example of other interests (and further, the subject was its chairperson for many years, I seem to recall), but it is nothing critical. Again, extra materials, especially on academic work, would be very welcome - but a rounded bio does go beyond core academic career. SeoR (talk) 18:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to have been addressed by another editor. Removing from queue. PK650 (talk) 10:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So that request from DCU was rejected, OK. Fair enough, it bordered on snobbery, the attempt to edit out the Peter's Bar background. Might as well drop the secondary teaching, but where's the shame in that either? It's not like historians all work in the groves of academe, or have sky-high Higge indexes (if biologists reach 30-40, many top historians don't get out of the teens). But on one item the Uni may have been right, on a point of accuracy - is the president really resident in Greater Rathfarnham or did the First Family move to An Grianan after all? I don't see one of these famous citations of recent date supporting the Rathfarnham point, only one for the Concert Band. And An Grianan, while rather hidden, looks pretty lived-in for those passing by on campus. I'm not sure it matters much but if the Irish people are paying for an official residence, I suppose it is better it it is used, and for Wiki, best to be accurate, and if not, just leave points out. 136.206.9.224 (talk) 16:21, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Noted, thanks. Will check refs. Google Scholar (and Scopus) did not supply a h-index for the subject, as far as I recall, but I will check this too. SeoR (talk) 00:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The house An Grianan was reworked at university / State expense, for residential use, https://www.sca.ie/dcu-house, and is listed on dcu.ie and buildingsofireland.ie as the residence of the DCU head. 109.144.211.101 (talk) 08:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This conversation is in one sense closed, but I acknowledge the inputs above, though they are probably more germane to the DCU article. On the citation index points, I see a h-index of 11 and a g-index of 22 (meaningful for history, and in the same broad range as another St Pat's / DCU history prof.). Not clear re "Higge" - a portmanteau of Hirsch and Egghe - and not aware of an index of that name. Anyway, I'm not sure if this index material is solid enough for the article, will consider. Checking this has given me more material to add to the article anyway. SeoR (talk) 13:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good introduction but lacks depth on Dr Keogh's academic work, before, and for that matter since, becoming President of St Pat's and then DCU. The administrative work has obviously had an impact, with five year gaps between publications, but Keogh is still at least theoretically working on the Cullen and Edmund Rice stuff. The Rice volume was a bit superficial when it came to motivation and behaviour, including the internal CB conflicts but still helped contentualise someone who had a big impact on Ireland. Likewise Keogh could have gone deeper into what made Pearse tick but he's far from unique in this deference. And surely there should be something on his leadership of DCU? He has presided over at least some small initiatives, and some honorary awards, although the latter probably began pre-Covid under MacCraith. Surely the entire university of camera-bearers can also offer a better just-the-subject, Ma'am, photo. 10:20, 4 July 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.252.36 (talk)