Talk:Curse of Ham/Archive 1
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Pronoun Ambiguity
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the First sentince suffers form pronoun ambiguity. I am not farmiliar enough with the story to correct it, but the pronoun "his" should be replaced with either Ham or Noah, depending on which person it refers too.
Per the discussion on Curse of Cain, I've moved portions to Blacks and Mormonism that does not deal directly with the Curse of Ham. Mormon's views on blacks and slavery may or may not relate to these two doctrines, and is certainly intermingled, but the references do not specifically relate to the Curse. If all Mormon views in the early church on blacks are to be removed, then let's be consistent. -Visorstuff 18:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Needs references
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This statement needs some reference
"especially as the principal enemy of Christendom was Islam, which dominated North Africa. Despite the fact that Islam originated with the Semitic Arabs, European imagery often stressed the blackness of the Islamic Moors and associated them with the 'cursed' sons of Ham."
Although I agree that Europeans had to deal with the Arab invasions, the Arabs also had written negative racist theories about Black people in the 8th century onwards.
Mormonism had universally accepted it
I removed "the racial interpretation of these references have never gained universal acceptance within all denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement" because this is statement is false.
When something is not univerally accepted, there is dissent. I found no dissent(no arguement against the Curse of Ham being on Black people) from the period of 1831 - 1950. ALl of the leaders, all of the officials, and any writer who wrote on the issue who had any representative position of the Mormon church wrote in favor of the Curse of Ham being on black people. No one wrote, "the curse of ham is not on black people". Universally, it was accepted from the outset of it's presentation in 1831 until at least 1950, and I am being very generous as it honestly wasn't even discussed until the late 70s. Any unilateral reverts will be removed--208.254.174.148 13:37, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
- You appear to be considering only The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But there are some denominations who claim never to have accepted this doctrine, such as the Community of Christ, as well as many of the more recently-formed denominations. I do understand your point, however, for the period between 1831 and 1844. I'll change to reflect. COGDEN 18:23, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Abrahamic category
The category is correct - this relates to abrahamic religions - christianity, judaism, etc. -Visorstuff 20:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Reference for dark skinned Christ
A reference you could check that clearly demonstrates how the very oldest portraits of Christ show Him as dark skinned, beginning with the Mandylion:
the book Holy Places, Secret Faces by Ian Wilson.
ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
IronDuke vs. Codex Sinaiticus ( ፈቃደ ): Dark skinned Christ
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And there's this: ![]() The man in this portrait may have an olive cast to his skin, but that is not what's meant by "dark-skinned." IronDuke 17:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Or perhaps these would sway you?
![]() ![]() IronDuke 18:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC) No, it does not sway me, because no matter how many depictions showing him as white that you could come up with, it does not un-do all if the authentic depictions of a dark-skinned Christ that are far older that I have seen with my own eyes in the Wilson book. And he is most definitely a scholar and one of the foremost authorities who has written a number of books on this very subject, he is by no means "fringe", and his books are easily found in almost any public library. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Then there is the 'Acheropita' icon in the Vatican that dates to at lest 754, but as it actually shows more of a dark olive-skinned man, the "race" could be debateable. This is also the case with other ancient depictions of the Veronica seen in an 11th C. Vatican Codex (Bib. Vat. Codex Rossianus 251, fol. 12v); an 11th c. Greek Menologion in the Patriarchal Library, Alexandria; the 11th c. Christ Pantocrator fresco in the Basilica of Sant'Angelo in Formis, near Capua, Italy, and many others. Plates clearly showing all of these images may be seen in Wilson's book. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 20:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
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Weasel Words
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The following statements require editing in order to remove weasel words;
- Other church leaders had taught that Ham, ... was cursed for taking Noah's Temple garment (Genesis 9:22) without authorization
- As the sacred text states that Ham's descendants settled in Egypt after the flood, Mormon apologists often use this as an argument in favour of the similarity between some Egyptian rituals and some Mormon temple rites, ...
- When asked, church spokespeople generally repudiate the curse of Ham doctrine.
- However, despite urging from a number of black Mormons, there has not yet been an official and explicit church repudiation of the doctrine, or an admission that it was a mistake. --ErinHowarth 22:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Brigham Young and the curse of Ham
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I don't believe it is accurate to attribute the teaching of the Curse of Ham and the references to the Pearl of Great Price for justification of the preisthood ban. According to Lester Bush, Brigham Young exclusively referred to the Curse of Cain for justification of the priesthood ban. The Pearl of Great Price had not been cannonized yet. The fact that blacks were descended from Cain was a widely accepted fact in the days of Brigham Young, and his rhetoric never required the complexity of the Curse the Ham theory. According to Lester Bush, the Curse of Ham and the Pearl of Great Price were not used by the First Presidency to justify the prieshood ban until after the turn of the century (1900). Bush's book on this topic is out of print. Fortunately, the entire text is available online. Enjoy: [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErinHowarth (talk • contribs) 22:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Origin of Kushites' Black Skin -- from the Talmud
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According to the Babylonian Talmud, all passengers on the Ark were under strict orders not to copulate with their mates. There were three rulebreakers:
"Our Rabbis taught: Three copulated in the ark, and they were all punished — the dog, the raven, and Ham. The dog was doomed to be tied, the raven expectorates (his seed into his mate's mouth), and Ham was smitten in his skin." The footnote to this online version of the passage reads, "I.e., from him descended Cush (the negro) who is black-skinned."
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_108.html#PARTb Perhaps someone can add this to the main article?
- Is it relevant to the curse of Ham? The curse was that Canaan (not Cush) would be a slave to Shem and Japhet. PiCo 06:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
My fault
I am sorry. I never believed it necessary to enlighten Noah, his descendents, or his progenitors about the concept of personal responsibility. Noah is responsible for his own drunkenness and nakedness and therefore should have cursed only himself. I apologize for three thousand years of human suffering and misunderstanding.DearGod 06:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
If not black then at the very LEAST olive skinned!
Bold text When looking at the color demographics of the region of Nazareth, Egypt, and Africa in general..... one will find that the predominant color scheme is very dark to light brown. Mary herself was an African, there is no possible way immaculate or not that she could have bore a white child. Even if God Himself were white, with Mary being in a region that is filled with people that have very dark to light brown skin, they could not have had a white child. The Garden of Eden is thought to have been in Africa, if the first people were created in a predominantly dark region, and God created Adam and Eve in his Holy image, would it not also be correct to assume that even God had dark skin? Although I don't know much on the subject, I would absolutely love to hear everyone's comments/thoughts on that perspective. Oh and just to give everyone a better view of who I am.... I am Black, and being experienced in the field of having Black children by a person with "white" skin, I think it's also fair to add that my own children are complexed anywhere from brown to olive........ but DEFINITELY not white. X.n Queen 00:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
- Mary was presumably from Nazareth, so it's meaningless toi call her an "African". Talking about God having dark skin or light skin is simply silly. Paul B 00:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
- The Garden of Eden is also thought to have been... 1)hidden within the Himalayas 2)in the region of the Tigris and Euphrates 3)with Atlantis beneath the sea 4)in Lemuria. Conclusions based on unproven assumptions are only as reliable as the assumptions. Case in point, Eden was in Africa therefore God is dark skinned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Washicd (talk • contribs) 16:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Revisions to the article
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Just a fwe notes on how I see this article being improved: 1. More attention to the meaning of the curse in the context of the first millenium BC, which is when it was written; 2. Far less attention to 20th century American ideas - can keep a little about Mormon ideas, as it really is relevant, but not so much as at present, but Nuwaibianism (or whatever it's called) can be lost. Cheers, PiCo 12:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
- Why? The Curse of Ham is a continuing concept. If anything it was most influential - as an idea - in the 19th century. Paul B 12:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
My point is that the use of the Curse to justify slavery, though a point worth making, is given far too much attention. The article could and should be much more succinct. PiCo 16:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
- Succinct is good - and there is certainly too much special pleading and prolixity here - but we still need to be comprehensive. One of the charms of such subjects are the weird and wonderful oddities of exegesis. Paul B 16:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Blacks are not cursed
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I removed the following, recent addition from the main article because it is poorly-written.
- BLACKS ARE NOT CURSE
- In the bible it talks about ham the father of canaan ham finding out his father nakedness(gen 9.22) but then it says vs 25 cursed be canaan to understand this text you have to look at all of ham children lets take a look nimrod it says that his kingdom was babel or babylon and out of babylon went forth asshur and built nineveh so it fare to say that out of ham came many mighty nations also the hewbrews an akkadian people that settled in kanaan and assimilated some kanaanite groups.They adopted the national name of israelites after jacob there father and they were divided into 12 tribes. they are actually the oldest existing people that has ever owned the land of kanaan and the only one that has right to claim its total possession. in early times the israelites settled colonies in the lands of sheva and ofir or sofala or mozambique subsequently as consequence of wars and slavery and deportations, they are present in every country like it says in the bible talk to the rebellious house it also says in the bible thus saith the lord god although i have cast them far off among the heathen and although i have scattered them amoung the countries yet will i be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come it also says in the bible her gates are sunk into the ground he hath destroyed and broken her bars her king and her princes are amoung the gentiles the law is no more her prophets aslo find no vision from the lord their visage is blacker than a coal they are not known in the streets their skin cleaveth to their bones it is withered it is become like a stick they that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger the israelites will never be a nation again in the book of ezekiel Thus saith the lord god unto the land of israel an end the end is come upon the four corners of of the the land now is the end come upon thee and will judge thee according to thy ways and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations also in the book of judges read it for yourself the canaanites ham children dwelt and inter bread with israelites/ hebrews akkadian people semitic peoples may god bless u as u study.
Someone please look over this text, gather the useful information and add it to the article. — Val42 02:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll reformat it (based on some biblical background), and let you decide its usefulness:
- In the bible it talks about Ham, the father of canaan, Ham finding out his father nakedness(gen 9.22), but then it says vs 25
- "Cursed be canaan"
- To understand this text you have to look at all of Ham's children. Lets take a look at Nimrod. It says that his kingdom was babel, or babylon,
- "... and out of babylon went forth asshur and built nineveh ..."
- So it's fair to say that out of Ham came many mighty nations, also the Hebrews, an akkadian people, that settled in kanaan and assimilated some kanaanite groups. They adopted the national name of Israelites after jacob their father and were divided into 12 tribes. They are actually the oldest existing people that has ever owned the land of kanaan and the only one that has right to claim its total possession.
- In early times the Israelites settled colonies in the lands of sheva and ofir (or Sofala or Mozambique). Subsequently, as a consequence of wars, slavery and deportation, they are present in every country, like it says in the bible:
- "... Talk to the rebellious house ..."
- It also says in the bible,
- "... thus saith the lord god, 'Although i have cast them far off among the heathen, and although i have scattered them among the countries, yet will i be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.'..."
- It also says in the bible that her gates are sunk into the ground,
- "... He hath destroyed and broken her bars; her king and her princes are among the gentiles; the law is no more, her prophets also find no vision from the lord, their visage is blacker than a coal, they are not known in the streets, their skin cleaveth to their bones, it is withered, it is become like a stick. They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger..."
- The Israelites will never be a nation again. In the book of Ezekiel, for example:
- "... Thus saith the lord god,"Unto the land of Israel: an end, the end is come upon the four corners of of the the land. Now is the end come upon thee and will judge thee according to thy ways and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.'..."
- Also in the book of judges (read it for yourself) the Canaanites, Ham's children, dwelt and inter-bread with the Israelites, Hebrews, Akkadian, and semitic peoples.
- may god bless u as u study.
(I am not the author of the text, nor associate with any POV it may present, but edited it in a hopefully unbaised manner wrt the author's intent. PeterMG (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC))
- Well, that's great, but it isn't remotely clear what relevance this melange is supposed to have to this article. Paul B (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Edits in the LDS section
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It was a surprise to see that some of the official scripture of the LDS faith was not included. Even more surprising was that the article implies that there is nothing to include, even going as far as to say that passages in the Book of Abraham could be read in the same way as the bible in regards to this topic. Firstly that is impossible whereas the word black is not found in the bible relating to any curse on anyone, but in the LDS scriptures, the word black is found. It is found clearly, I might add, thus negating the notion that the Bible and LDS scripture can be read in a similar fashion. --Ayete 11:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
To add, it's important to clearly add the scripture itself to this article, instead of merely referencing. The LDS scripture of the Pearl of Great Price is clear in it's citation. The Book of Moses in Pearl of Great Price is considered vital divinely inspirated scripture by the LDS church. it's presence becomes significant as the Pearl of Great Price is considered, according to the LDS.org website:
Selections from the Book of Moses. An extract from the book of Genesis of Joseph Smith’s Translation of the Bible, which he began in June 1830. See History of the Church, vol. 1, pp. 98-101, 131-139. The Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore truths to the Bible text that had become lost or changed since the original words were written. These restored truths clarified doctrine and improved scriptural understanding.
In that, it is essential to the quality of this article, that the quotes I added are kept, as it ensures the article's integrity and neutrality. --Ayete 11:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph does not make sense:
In Mormonism, the racial interpretation of the curse of Ham has taken a circuitous route. There was never an "introduction" of the doctrine into Mormonism by the movement's founder Joseph Smith, Jr., because he took the doctrine for granted, like most other white Christian Americans of his era.
The phrase circuitous route is ambigious and confusing. Furthermore, there had to BE an introduction of the doctrine into Mormonism, as we find this doctrine IN Mormonism. So it had to come from somewhere else, then be literally introduced from that somewhere else, into Mormonism. I updated the article to reflect that undeniable reality. --Ayete 05:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Jesus (Yeshu Chrestus) was black
There is plenty of proof that Christ was black. Look at the Black Madonna and Child statue in every european country there is. You will find a black Christ. How else was jesus able to hide in egypt when king Herod was looking for him? And besides, rather if he was black or not. The model for Christ is african. The mythical side of Christ comes from a african god called Horus (Heru). Everything from walking on water to the resurrection came from this god. He was also born on december 25. He also was called the lamb. And he was born of immaculent conception. All you and other christians have been doing is worshiping the sun in the closet. Everything about the bible comes from africa, like the ten commandments which originally comes from the 42 oricales of MA'AT ( Egyptian Book of the Dead). The word Amen comes from the god Amen-Ra. Also Holy Bible comes from the latin word Helios Biblos meaning Sun Book. And you dont have to go to africa to find such proof. Look at the attachment I sent you. I bet you this painting will tell you something. It is a catacomb painting as well. It is Christ and the Apostels on the Domitilla Catacombs in Rome (300 A.D.). And I have plenty more if you like. You need not to worry what black people say about Christ. Just look at what white so-called jews say about him. In the Babylonian Talmud they say jesus (yeshu) is a bastard son of mary and a roman soldier. Mary who commited adultry. And there not the only ones who say that. But hey, there the choosen so they can get away with that. Not that I believe in such garbage. The choosen concept is undenialbly anti life.Why would god choose some people over others? Oh I know the answer because he is racsist intollerable jealous god. This guy sounds alot like Zeus don't he? --Thetruth170 02:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC) File:Large photo of christ
- He was able to 'hide' in Egypt because Egypt was a different country. The people of the Nile delta were probably visually indistingishable from those of Canaan, but even if they weren't, it's rather irrelevant. None of these black images are early. They are medieval, dating from over a 1000 years after the life of Jesus. Sun worship is rather irrelevant here too, but there's nothing specifically African about it. The word Holy has nothing to do with Helios. It's from a Germanic root. What attachment? There is a red link, that's all. If you are referring to this image [5] [6], as you can see it looks rather different depending on how you photograph it! Paul B 08:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Recent changes
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Blue Tie made a series of edits here. I made a later edit which I thought would be entirely uncontroversial, but got reverted by Blue Tie. Huh. Anyway, comments:
- This racist theory was common during the 18th-20th centuries, but has been largely abandoned even by the most conservative theologians since the mid-20th century.
You added a fact tag to this. While it's a given that this article (and any non-featured article) could use more cites, this is obviously true. I'm not sure even insane types like the Westboro Baptist Church hold to this nowadays, and certainly 100% of mainstream churches don't. Do you have some reason for doubting the veracity of this?
- A possible explanation for pronouncing the curse on Ham's youngest instead of his eldest son, as might be more traditionally expected, or directly at Ham himself is that the story is implying Canaan was the incestuous offspring of Ham and his mother, although this requires interpretating Noah's cursing Canaan by name as occurring later. To see Canaan as more than just cursed but also a product of matriarchial incest would exacerbate his and the Canaanites' contemptible status.
This is horribly written, however it's worthy of being brought to the talk page or slapped with a cite tag. I have no clue who holds this interpretation, if anyone, but it sounds plausible. So if anyone else has a cite or knows what the deal is here... I've restored a shortened version to the article with a cite request.
- Various Mormonism related items
No comment on some of the removals that were aggressively pointing out that this was part of Mormon scripture, but the line about "incorporated it as part of the scriptural doctrine of the Pearl of Great Price, which is currently in use as canon scripture by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." sounds relevant to me. Assuming, of course, it is true, having a reference in that book as well is worth a mention.
As for my edit: "more properly" vs. "also" seems like it should clearly go to also. Who's to say what's more proper? It's a name. I also weakened the misnomer comments somewhat- I'd certainly consider it a curse to have your line cursed, so Ham was only not cursed indirectly. Not even certain I can say that, with the attitudes of "familial ownership" seen in the Old Testament (a la Lot offering his daughters or Job being tormented by having his relatives killed); it's entirely plausible to read the curse as aimed at Ham, just in a way that reads oddly to modern eyes.
Not sure why you took away the note on the Bible verse- it's quite important to say which translation is being used. The random bolding in the other scripture passages is unnecessary; they aren't so long as to let them get lost. MOS:BOLD indicates that boldface should be used sparingly.
As for the Islamic interpretations passage, um, the old one is awful and gets on a completely irrelevant track about how in Islam there is no racism. Those parentheses are a dead giveaway that someone is preaching; while it's a reasonable interpretation, my Qur'an certainly doesn't contain those lines. I cut it down to the heart of the matter: all prophets in Islam kept Islamic law, which means that the story doesn't make sense from an Islamic perspective. Not sure why you disagree with that.
Comments welcome. SnowFire (talk) 05:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- My objection is that you added uncited original research throughout and in the one instance where a citation was requested, you removed that request claiming "it is obvious". That is bad logic. I think you also removed a cited reference -- on Islam. Perhaps you consider it preaching. Maybe it is. But you did not make a case for that. . Note also, "More properly" is not better than the original wording -- it is original research to claim something is "more proper" unless it is cited. In short, you have, in one single edit, made the article even less reliable than it was. That is my problem. with your edit
- But.. The note on the bible verse, I do not mind keeping.
- However, unless these problems I describe above are remedied, I will remove them again. --Blue Tie (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- How to phrase this... I would request that you examine my edit again. In all seriousness, are you looking at the older version and thinking its mine compared to the newer one? I removed "more properly." The "cite" in the older version was to the Qur'an itself, except a version with extra commentary added in-line, and it's a wholly irrelevant quote in any case. I replaced bad soapboxing with easily sourceable correct content. If you look up prophets in Islam, you'll find plenty of confirmation in both the Wikipedia article and any other source on the subject that say they kept Islamic law.
- As for the comment in the lead, aside from the fact that citations are not typically needed in the lead as per WP:LEAD, citation requests should only be placed for material you are challenging. If you'd like to challenge it, then please provide some rationale as to why you disagree with that but not the many, many other lines that are more questionable than this. SnowFire (talk) 05:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The true curse of Canaan
Has nothing to do with dark skin. It is a curse of the Caucasian and explains your pale skin. Ham's son Canaan and all his seed are cursed with leprosy. All the references are there in your Torah and can be detailed. Please DO NOT remove the Nuwaubic part of the article without an explanation. Nuwaubian Hotep (talk) 22:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Nuwaubian Hotep vs. Blue Tie & Paul B: African Diaspora
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References:
Nuwaubian Hotep (talk) 05:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
By-the-way. I also added the Black Hebrew Israelite to this section as many from this community prescribe to this idiom as well Nuwaubian Hotep (talk) 06:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Bluetie, if you're read my comments in the African Diaspora section of this discussion page, you'll find that I have presented my case meticulously. You on the other hand are simply spouting rhetoric. In addition, I have proven that certain Black Hebrew Israelites subscribe to this theorem, so the removal of their name from this section only shows bias on your part. Further attempts at a redundant edits will force me to enact a WP:RFC Nuwaubian Hotep (talk) 03:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC) Obviously this entire article has been about whether only canaan was cursed or all of black mankind. Paul was clear enough when he likened it to theory, but there are others who are debating whether there is actually a curse that created black mankind. If black mankind was cursed into existence from non black mankind, then non black mankind has to show an earlier existence that predates black mankind. So far archeaology and DNA research are at a loss to do this. But let's explore the genetic consequences of the curse. Virtually wrinkleless skin with enough melanin to give considerable protection from sun rays, phenomenal physical abilities, enormous speed and endurance on top of lightning fast reflexes. Not a bad curse I think. If Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali and Carl Lewis were cursed into their physical abilities, then Superman was cursed because he could fly. I wouldn't give up my so called curse for anything on this earth. Tom 03/15/08 Categories: B-Class African diaspora articles | High-importance African diaspora articlesThe etymology of hebrew teaches us that Ham son of Noah had black skin, not Canaan; and black skin is not necessary an indication of being of "African" descent. In fact, as per the Wikipedia reference it was Ham who moved southwest into Africa and parts of the near Middle East. This article belongs within the Category:Torah_events related section of Wikipedia, not the African diaspora. To list it here is simply racist and is a completely unverified reference. Nuwaubian Hotep (talk) 05:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC) African Disapora BadgeIt is simply racist and invalid to relate the Curse of Ham (Canaan) to the African Diaspora. I don't know who's idea that was but it was a bad one. I have removed the badge from this page. And I will defend this action into Wikipedia's halo. Nuwaubian Hotep (talk) 16:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I have already stated that the biblical reference of leprosy does not apply to it's modern day term but rather a form of leprosy called Alphos which whitens the skin. As evidence, I have listed several biblical quotes that associates whitened skin with leprosy. The passage that reads "servant of servants" is applicable but it not an ethnic trait. The basis of the discussion is that this curse is additionally based in ethnicity, as per the attempt at associating the African Diaspora badge with this article. The etymological root of the name "Ham" is defined as "a name of Egyptians" and is where the reference of Ham having dark skin originates. I'll agree Leviticus 14:34 is vague and is open for interpretation (ex: "house" as in the physical home or "house" as in family lineage. Either way the plague wasn't just for the Israelites because the land was conquered meaning the Canaanites were still there. And this being the only reference other than being a slave that can be applied to Canaan and his seed. Nuwaubian Hotep (talk) 21:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
This has been really silly. Genesis 9:25-27. 25: And he (Noah) said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. (Meaning Cush, Mizraim and phut) 26: And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. (Meaning as written) 27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. (Meaning as written). These verses are true and accurate. Canaan was the servant of those written in these verses. That's it. His children were not cursed and Ham was not cursed. Ham actually couldn't be cursed because of Gen 9:1 "And God blessed Noah and his sons and said unto them , Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth". Noah did not have the power to curse what God had blessed. Canaan's curse was upon his head only. The actual servants were the Israelites unto the Egyptians after which they were given the land of seven nations including the land of Canaan (Deu 7:1). The Canaanites were to be destroyed by the Israelites not made slaves (Deu 7:2-3). From these Israelites and Canaanites are the people that we now refer to as Palestinians. Not the Jews of Europeon descent that have inhabited the land since 1948. Not white men at all. The exodus was complete centuries ago and is as old as the story itself. Canaan's curse had nothing to do with slavery as we know it and did not in any way mimic slavery as we know it or any geneological generational curses that we may try to invent. Ham was black from birth. People have tried to use God's threat of a curse upon the Israelites (Ex 20:5} to mimic the characteristics of Noah's curse on Canaan. As if Noah and God compare. Neither whites blacks and all ethnics in between are cursed. Tom 03/17/08 |
Jewish Interpretation
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The lead provides some historic context for the inclusion of the Curse of Ham in the Torah, that it was justification for Israelites' conquering of Canaan. This historical context does not appear below, however, and that support would be useful, with sources. Much Biblical research has looked at historical sources for the context in which portions were written. Those could be useful additions to this article, which seems mostly based on quotations from the Torah and Bible.--Parkwells (talk) 17:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "below"? Where do you think it should be placed? Paul B (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- There really does not seem to be any place for it - a new section of "Contemporary Interpretation" is needed, for what would be more recent scholars' reflections, including assessment of the historic context for this portion of the Torah (as you note, justification for conquering the Canaanites.)--Parkwells (talk) 04:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Abrahamic Ambiguity
Ive changed the term "Abrahimic religions" to Jews and Christians, becuase other Abrahamic relgions (Islam, Bahai, etc.) do not subscribe to the theory of the Curse of Ham. No mention in religious texts.
72.251.79.160 (talk) 08:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC) Marcus, March 28th, 2008
- This is not true. There is already a section discussing this. The idea of the curse does not occur in the Qur'an, but the Qur'an alludes to Christian and Jewish narratives, and there is a long tradition in Islam of explaining allusions with reference to Judeo-Christian texts and traditions. Many Islamic scholars used the concept of the curse of Ham, which was also a popularly known story in Muslim countries. Paul B (talk) 09:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Paul, you are incorrect. Muslims are not allowed to use Judeo-Christian stories at all, unless they find support in the Quran or hadith. It is considered forbidden to do so in Islamic theology. Please don't speak about Islam if you don't know the basics about the religion. There is an EXPLICIT hadith in which Muhammad forbids his followers from taking the stories of the Jews and Christians, and he says that we only accept those stories of theirs which are supported by Muslim texts (i.e. Quran and Sunnah). Furthermore, you claim that "Muslim scholars" have used the concept of the curse of Ham. Which ones? Name them! Please don't tell me you will cite One Thousand and One Nights, which is a book of fairy-tales, a fictional book...it is like citing a Nancy Drew book to prove Christian theology! As for Abrégé des merveilles, then that book is falsely attributed to a man named Masudi, whom mainstream Islamic scholars called a heretic anyways. In any case, the book cannot be attributed to Masudi to begin with, and I've cited the reference for that.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.120.196.171 (talk) 13:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- And you are ignorant. The "Abrégé des merveilles" is not a French text, it's Arabic. It was first transtated into French, so is usually known by the French version of the name. The thousand and one nights can be quoted in the same way as any book can, and both are cited to a reliable source. Both are evidence that thjis view exited within Islamic culture. This is not the same as saying that it is an official belief, any more than that the racial interpretation of the curse was ever and official belief in any Christian religious sect (except perhaps Mormonism). It was, however, common in Christian culture. The same applies to Islam. What you say about what Muslims are not allowed to do is not supported by many traditions of interpretation. Paul B (talk) 13:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
This tale goes against explicit verses and narrations in Islamic primary sources, to cite al-Masudi or 1001 nights and the like against primary sources is a joke. Israeli narrations are only used when they do not go against the Quran and the Sunnah.
And yes, "the curse of Ham" has been championed in the past by American protestant religious heads http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav.htm
HussaynKhariq (talk) 13:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- You are still confusing the distinction between culture and theology. The very fact that Ibn Khaldun disussed the idea shows that he has to argue against a theory that existed. Paul B (talk) 13:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Nonsense. The book falsely attributed to Masudi said "hey, here is an Israeli narration". It's like a Hindu book saying "hey, here is a Jewish story." And then Ibn Khaldun refuted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.120.196.171 (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- Rubbish. The story is specifically interpreted in the Abrege with reference to Islamic assumptions. Paul B (talk) 15:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
NPOV Section
It seems this phrasing is biased when it gets to the last paragraph and takes a tone inappropriate for an encyclopedia:
- Rashi, the main commentator on Torah, explains the harshness of the curse: "Some say Cham saw his father naked and either sodomized or castrated him. His thought was "Perhaps my father's drunkenness will lead to intercourse with our mother and I will have to share the inheritance of the world with another brother! I will prevent this by taking his manhood from him! When Noah awoke, and he realized what Cham had done, he said, "Because you prevented me from having a fourth son, your fourth son, Canaan, shall forever be a slave to his brothers, who showed respect to me!"
- Another notable Jewish commentator on Torah, Avraham Ibn Ezra, disagrees with Rashi: "And the meaning of '[Cursed be Canaan, he will be a slave] unto his brothers' is to Cush, Egypt, and Put [only], for they are his father's [other] sons. And there are those who say that the Cushim [black skinned people] are slaves because Noah cursed Ham [the father of Cush], but they forget that the first king after the flood was a descendant of Cush, and so it is written, 'And the beginning of his kingdom was Babylonia.'"
- It is clear that he understands the Biblical curse as confined to one generation alone, and thus, mitigates the idea that the curse of slavery would continue through Ham's descendants. He also points out the logical flaw that if Cushites were cursed with slavery, then how is it that the first descendent of Cush, Nimrod, is listed as a king of Babylonia (Genesis 10:8-10).
"It is clear that he understands the Biblical curse..." seems to violate this especially.
Cornince (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Enough with Racial Issues
If your that concerned over appearence, you must have other motives other than trying to prove He was this or that. Quit being racist or prone to one race as opposed to another. He is decended from David and Abraham, so He is an Israelite. Hes not black(African) or white(Caucasian). In fact the Middle Eastern Race tends to be in between. So He was either light skinned or tanned. So racial wise he isn't black or white. Skin colored wise we don't know. Mwarriorjsj7 (talk) 11:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)