Talk:Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon/Archive 1

Archive 1

Physics & music

what about the large scale cinematography, lack of newtonian physics (part of the fun once you get it that the heroes are larger than life with some semi-supernatural powers), musical score....

Yo Yo Ma certainly helps. Durova 05:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I saw it on the super big screen and thought of the great classic epics...Spartacus, Ten Commandments......

In the scene where Jen takes a bath in the cave in the desert, Lo tells her that he will be singing so that she would know where he is. (Around 1 hour 5 minutes from the start of the movie.) Then Lo starts singing, in -a dialect of- Turkish. The words "guzel kiz, havali kiz" are easily recognazible, meaning "beautiful girl, eye-catching/attractive girl". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.64.100 (talk) 16:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Romance

According to Michelle Yeoh in her interview on the DVD, Li Mu Bai and Yeoh's character Shu Lien do not act on their love because Shu Lien had been engaged to someone who died, and because in that society the woman was then supposed to live the rest of her life as a widow. I saw no indication of her engagement in the movie, but it is based on a five-volume novel, so I guess some compression and shorthand is to be expected. Maybe this relationship will be explained in the prequel.

In the film, Xiu Lian does explicitly state to Jiao Long that she was engaged to Mu Bai's 'brother by oath', Meng Si Zhao. He's stated by name in their conversation. Later near the end of the film, when Jiao Long comes to visit her, Xiu Lian is seen lighting incense before a plaque bearing his name. — Southern Crane 00:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I just watched the film again last night and there is evidence of Liu Shien's earlier engagement, in one of her conversations with Jen. It's only a few lines though, but it's there.

carbon dating

Lo's telescope dates the action sometime after 1608.

This statement didn't add much information because the movie was set in the Qing Dynasty according to the hair style and clothings. Qing Dynasty didn't start until 1644? Of course, the telescope was available then.

Ang Lee explains in one CDV insert that the China of this story has no particular time period and probably never existed. Durova 05:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Whether Ang Lee said that or not on a VCD, I can't dispute. But the film itself does have a date because Xiu Lian's pass shown upon entering Beijing is dated: "The 43rd year of Emperor Qian Long's reign" -- 1778. — Southern Crane 00:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

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Yuen Wo-Ping

Should mention the involvment of Yuen Wo-Ping, as in The Matrix.

TV Series

WARNING: may contain spoilor.

Starting Oct 31, 2001, Channel 26, KTSF of San Francisco is showing a Taiwanese TV drama series of CTHD in Mandarin. The show is run Monday to Friday from 10pm to 11pm. Those who live in the San Francisco Bay Area and understand Mandarin can enjoy a different rendition of the story. Since this is a long series, the story is actually stretched out with a lot of details than the movie version. Obviously, the series is based on the same Chinese novel that the movie based on. I have watched the first 2 episodes so far and already seen a lot of differences in the story. For example, Lon-Ur's (the little dragon) master is a man instead of the female Jade Fox as in the movie.

The story started at a point where Li and Yu met as strangers. By the second episode, Yu's family was already massacred. Her father sent her away on a courier mission in order to spare her from the killers. She ran to his father's best friend (Meng) for shelter and found out her husband-to-be was already 'killed'. Apparently, his face was badly burnt and he disguised himself as a servant and lied to her that the marriage arrangement was off due to his death. Since they have not seen each other since childhood, she was not aware of the lie. Li was a young man just stepped in the Jiang Wu for the first time. He tried to help Yu deal with her mourning while protecting her from the killers. As of today's episode, they were still at a great distance. In fact, those who have seen the movie know that they kept the distance until death.

(added notes on Dec 15, 2001)

The TV series ended on Dec 14 with 3 double hatter episodes on the last 3 nights. There were 34 episodes in total. A 34 hours drama series of course covers much much more of the original novel than the 2 hour movie version.

In the TV version, Meng gave up his marriage engagment with Yu because he joined the revolution against the government and he didn't want to mix personal love affair and his secret role in the underground. Li knew Meng's secret identity and tried to bring Yu and Meng together. Li felt for Yu, but being a Taoist student, he sublimed his love for Yu's well being and happiness by helping Yu to get back with her childhood lover. The love triangle went on with several unexpected turns and reversals. Meng was eventually killed by Te and Li was framed for the killing. Yu being a brainless idiot fell for the setup and became Li's enemy for a while.

The role of the Jade Fox in the movie is actually combining 3 characters from the novel. Among the 3 characters, Jen's master was a good guy, a hero. The other two, including the Jade fox, were villains.

The fatherly figure, prince Te, in the movie is actually the most vicious villain in the novel. He was an ambitious guy who plotted to take over power to became the ruler of China. He used Yu as a pawn with many plots. And the pea brain Yu failed to see the dark side of Te, didn't know Te was responsible for her family massacre, loyal to him, called him "godfather", and turned against the other heros in the story.

Jen and Lo's roles are similar to those in the movie except that Lo hid his bandit identity and gained trust from Jen's father. Jen's father actually tried to help Lo become a government official. But Lo gave up his position after he discovered Te's plot to subsititue Jen's father position with Lo's position. Being moved by Jen's father's genuine support for him, he ran away to ruin Te's plot.

At the end, Jen's master sacreficed himself to save Jen from Te. The other heros in the story united to fight Te and killed him at the end. Li didn't die in the novel. He went to experience life and explore taoism by travelling different parts of the country. But he promised to return and asked Yu to wait for him. Jen and Lo returned to the desert at the end.

The ending of the movie is totally different from that in the novel. The Jade fox role was eliminated quite early because the main plot was about Te's hidden agenda. Towards the end of the series, the green destiny sword led to a pool of Qi cuminated for hundreds of years, Te wanted to take the qi to become invincable so that he could complete his ambition to take over the country. This plot would be too crazy and foreign to the western audience.

Though the movie script was pruned so severly from the original story, I personally think the shorter story had a better theme and plot. The focus on three women's role (Jen, Yu and Jade fox) in the traditional Chinese society, actually gave the movie a totally different feel. The original novel is a typical Wu Xia story about killings, revenge, power struggle etc. and with so many weird concepts uncomprehensible by the western audience. But the rewritten screenplay added much more depth to the story which led to the good box office results.

The love triangle between Li, Yu and Meng were quite boring in the TV series. I wonder if they plan to make the prequel to the movie, they probably would not base on the original novel. The sceenplay of the first movie did wonders in deviating from the original story, I think it would be unnecessary to stick to the original novel in the prequel.

TV series adaptation of the novel

Several years ago, I watched a TV serial version of a novel imported from Taiwan. But the difference is that it was totally faithful to the novel while this movie WASN'T. Also, they both tell different stories. We know what happened in the movie, so that's enough for it. I'll say that the story of TV serial was typically compared to the rest of "wuxia" novels and adaptations like The Legend of the Condor Heroes and others, but somewhat different. 69.227.173.21 09:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The TV Series is NOT "totally faithful to the novel". For example, rather than being in their middle ages like in the film and novel, both Xiu Lian and Mu Bai are in their youth. They're about the same ages as Jiao Long and Xiao Hu -- 18 and 25, respectively. Also, the setting of the TV series is in the 19th Century, while in the novel and the film it's the late 18th Century. A major plot also involves a revolution against the Manchus and restoration of Han rule, something neither the novel nor the film have anything to do with.

I have only seen a couple dozen episodes several years ago, but I recall Lui Mu Bai being much weaker than he is in this movie. In fact, there was hardly anything remarkable about Mu Bai's skill relative to the entire cast. In this movie, his ability is clearly way above any other character. (Yes, Jade Fox got him in the end but that was because he was trying to protect Jen.) I'm curious how he became this real super bad motha of a fighter in this movie. --Waterchan 07:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Neither the film nor the TV series are completely faithful to the novel, but the TV series is faaaaarr more unlike the novel than the film is. — Southern Crane 00:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sub/Dub

Does anyone know in what version CTHD was released in different English speaking countries? Subbed or dubbed or both (and in that case, the approximate ratio)? I'm referring to the cinema release now; the DVD of course includes both versions. IMDB has no info on this. Salleman 18:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I saw it subtitled in the UK. I'm not aware that any UK cinemas show dubbed films other than Japanimation movies. — Chameleon 18:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The part about the film's reception...

The article says that it was not well received in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong, but below that it lists the 20-odd awards it won in those very countries. Explain?

I'm also curious about the statement that people would not understand Michelle Yeoh's and Chow Yun-Fat's accents. The few native Chinese speakers I have talked to do not recall any strong accents. Clearly a lot of Chinese would anyhow at least occasionally read the subtitles, as they don't speak Beijing Mandarin, but that is hardly anything particular to those actors. Any sources? Mlewan 20:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

All of this section requires sources. The sentences that seek to explain its supposed poor reception seem to be the opinion of the editor. Sources please. Ashmoo 05:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that citations are needed, but I do also recall reading a fare amount of criticism in Chinese journals and newspapers of the movies when they first came out, so I don't think that this is just one editor's opinion... I do believe it was largely perceived as a movie that attempted to pander to Western tastes (but I think Ang Lee in general has had some issues in that area). The problem is, many of these are not online articles, and they are of course, in Chinese. Is there an easy way to cite this sort of thing? I read some Chinese, but I'm more comfortable as an English speaker/reader. --68.239.232.19 20:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to start a discussion section about this, only to see it's already being discussed. I noticed the need for citations too, so included that in the article. As is, the statement about it not being more well received is more opinion than fact since the HK and Taiwanese awards and box office numbers contradict that statement.

As for mainland China, it really is left to opinion. It's highly likely CTHD would've done much better at the box office had the film been released before the market was flooded with DVDs. And there's no doubting bootleg DVDs and VCDs of this film were widely sold and shared there. But we'll never no the true impact that delay may have had on the film's reception there.

At the very least, citation is needed for HK and Taiwan, especially seeing how well the film did in both countries. Particularly, Taiwan. — Southern Crane 01:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because a movie wins awards doesn't mean it does well at the box office. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was released in Taiwan roughly concurrently with Ridley Scott's Gladiator; at the multiplex that I frequented in Taiwan, Gladiator was shown on four screens simultaneously, while CTHD was shown on only one. With regards to the question of accents, imagine an historical English movie that uses actors with British, American, Scottish and Australian accents and then on top of that has them speak a traditional and archaic form of the language. Confusing, no? The dialogue in CTHD is not Bejing Mandarin, it is an approximation of traditional Chinese that is no longer spoken. This in itself would be enough to confuse and annoy any speaker of the modern language.--Baoluo 08:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC) What's really annoying is that in most of the Wuxia films, or TV shows, stardard Beijing Mandrain is spoken, even those made in Hong Kong speaks a very standard Beijing accent when released in mainland. That's the language that people is comfortable with. In the CTHD Chinese audiences can easily identify that some actors are really not comfortable with the language. For example in the scene where the bandit robbed Jen's people, the commands that he gives to his followers are really really wierd.

"imagine an historical English movie that uses actors with British, American, Scottish and Australian accents and then on top of that has them speak a traditional and archaic form of the language." That sounds like Alexsander! lol (and most other Hollzwood efforts!" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.153.72.57 (talk) 20:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

I think part of the perception that in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong the film was not well received is just that for those audiences it was not anything new or revolutionary. It was just a very expensive and glossy rendition of the style of wuxia film making they had seen all their lives. Not a negative reaction, just not a particularly fervent one. This is in contrast to western audiences, most of whom were probably not familiar with the wuxia films at all, who lauded CTHD as some sort of revolutionary breakthrough. Wizardkiss 02:59, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

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About the only negative remarks I heard from the overseas Chinese community here in America seemed to be borne from jealousy of its success, which is typical of anything they perceive to aimed toward the west (I'm being stereotypical here, but it's certainly somewhat true). Box office numbers were quite strong in all the Asian countries for this film, so I think the contents of this article are more editorial than fact, and should be removed. -- Kev 31 January 2007

From an interview with Zhang Yimou, at http://www.monkeypeaches.com/hero/interview01.html:

Reporter: As a martial art film, CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON has been highly praised in the West, but when (it was) shown in China, some audiences even fell sleep.

Zhang: Ang Lee was educated in the West and his English is good. All subtitles of CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON were rewritten and edited by himself. Usually, during the time an actor can speak three sentences and only two sentences can be subtitled. (The sentences) are very pithy. Ang Lee would adjust the subtitles and his choice of words is right on the target. The foreigners (i.e., non-Chinese) can enjoy it fully and can be moved by it. (They) can understand (it) and can accept (it). It's totally different when we were watching it. (We watched) the original (without the subtitles), plus the Chow Yun-fat and Michelle Yeoh's (low) Mandarin level. It was very hard for the (Chinese) audiences to swallow. CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON IS made for the Western audiences and he targeted (it on the Western market). It's success was inevitable. In the US market, I think, he has set two really hard-to-break records. (One is) setting the box-office record, over 100 million (US dollars), of foreign language films, not just Chinese language, but also French and Italian language films; (the other one is getting) so many Oscar nominations and awards. Because America is strong and is a concentration of world cultures, when he won the Oscar, the world was watching. We wouldn't say these awards have the highest artistic value, but the commercial value is very high. I never dreamed to achieve those. (He had) such opportunity and talent, and CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON has achieved an unprecedented success. I really admire him. 213.65.178.166 10:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Comic adaptation

Worth a mention? There were 12 volumes drawn by Andy Seto [1] (Emperor 01:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC))

How is a Manchu Noble Woman's hair style Done?

How is a Manchu Noble Woman's hair style Done?

The movie shows the Nanny undoing the Miss's Hair. I would like to know how to construct the hairstyle. This is important, because many of the Manchu Cultures and Language are becoming extinct. Obsessions28 (talk) 02:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Green Destiny?

Does anyone know why the Japanese title is Green Destiny (グリーン・デスティニー, Gurīn Desutini)? moocowsrule^{talk to moo} 00:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

You might want to ask on the ja.wiki article's talk page. bibliomaniac15 01:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

With my horrible Japanese I don't think anyone would really understand me. I'll bring it up at the English help page. moocowsrule^{talk to moo} 01:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think they would just name it a name that's not standard. My guess is that the original Chinese put into kanji would be too long to say, so they chose a different, shorter name. bibliomaniac15 01:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

グリーン・デスティニー is longer than 臥虎蔵龍 (the original Chinese name)... moocowsrule^{talk to moo} 02:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It might have been longer with all the associated okurigana though... moocowsrule^{talk to moo} 02:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Source section

Is there any reason for the source section seeing as though it is completely covered in the opening paragraph (except for the mention of Wang Dulu as a wu xia novelist)?--Pokeronskis (talk) 02:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

if no one comments on this by the 28th, I'm just going to delete the source section and integrate into the opening. Also, wu xia is one word: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wuxia --Pokeronskis (talk) 02:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Interpretation

I have added the Unencyclopedic tag to the section Themes and Interpretations. (I apologize if this is the wrong tag for my intents.) Whereas I did find this section interesting and well-worth reading, its presence in an encyclopedia can be disputed. Further, the interpretation is largely based on one source and gives one possible line of thought, which I consider highly inappropriate. (Even though the interpretation, it self, seems reasonably plausible to me.) In effect, personal opinion is presented as fact in an encyclopedic context. 88.77.183.85 (talk) 12:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

~Although I found this section to be an interesting read, it honestly sounds like someone's college English essay! I don't think it belongs in this article. It's an interpretation of the plot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.20.167 (talk) 22:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

~I agree, that it doesn't belong. I just rewatched this movie, and came to comment about this section, which I found interesting and quite frankly true for the most part. But I feel it disregards too much information in order to fit the viewpoint of the author and comes to a conclusion that I have to disagree with.

First off, it omits the fact that Li Mu Bai repeatedly offers to train Jen, which should be taken into account because it shows that while it's a patriachal society rule's they live by, they are not seen as absolute by everyone. He is willing to break said rules and at the same time, this could also be seen as Li Mu Bai's understanding and acceptance of the fact that it was his own Master's actions that created Jade Fox. This is shown in the conversation between him and Shu Lien, when he tells her he wants to train Jen so as not to create (another) Poison Dragon.

Also, in the same conversation, he shows that he understands that the "Patriachal" rules they follow are not good, but corrupt, when he relates the meaning of the title of Crouching Dragon, Hidden Tiger. What this shows, to me, is that he, like Jen, is fighting against the Patriachal society they live under, and his wanting to train Jen could be seen as his reconcilliation of what his Master did to Jade Fox.

Another thing to point out is the use of symbolism. I agree with the writer that many things perfectly represent Male Society, like the Sword as a phallic symbol. But I believe the writer misses an important lesson in the movie, shown in the scene of the fight between Jen and Shu Lien near the end in Shu Lien's Headquarters:

(SPOILERS) The two are fighting an even fight, and I believe the sceene was meant to show that Shu Lien was the superior fighter, and that Jen was only able to be her hold her own because of the sword. What I mean by this is that Shu Lien, who is seen by the writer as a woman who "reaffirms the values of a Patriachal society", is in actuality, a strong female fighter in her own right and that should not be downplayed. It shows beautifully that, though the sword and style (Wudan) can make you strong, it is really the person who wields the skill that is strong. This is also shown when Li Mu Bai's spars and tries to impart lessons on Jen.

So we see Shu Lien, who does not have Wudan training, and is without the Green Destiny, is able to hold her own against Jen and best her at the end soley because of her own skills as a fighter. This shows that she, a woman, is able to beat a product of the Patriachal society on her own (take note that while Jen can be seen as a novice, remember that she beat many male fighters previously, and even held her own at times with Li Mu Bai, who's a true master) and that the Patriachal society isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be. It is, in fact, all about the Fighter and not the style or the weapon. I think Jen starts to realize this at the moment Shu Lien beats her, though she doesn't fully understand and gets confused.

That comes to the end, where the writer claims that Jen commits suicide. I think the scene itself is open to interpretation. Does she really commit suicide, or is this more a symbolic moment showing her freedom? Things to consider are that the world of this movie has been presented to lack normal physics, where people can gracefully float in the air, and that the story told earlier of the boy jumping off the mountain says the boy surviving unharmed, itself just an allegory.

I think at the end, she realizes she has to go her own way, and that she was only using Lo as a means or a reason to escape her life/marriage, and that the life of a wandering warrior is what Jade Fox was trying to persuade her into, thus was never really what "she" wanted. In the end, it's not her who makes the wish, like the boy did, but she tells Lo to which of course is about them being together. Because that was Lo's wish, not hers. She just wanted freedom, and that's what she gets at the end.

Feel free to disagree with any of the points above. -Antijote —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antijote (talk • contribs) 08:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the Themes section is un-encyclopedic. While I agree that many of the points are valid, it belongs on a blog or such, not in wikipedia.Max.inglis (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Agree absolutely. I'm not sure I'll have to make the changes here, but I'd at least like to register my support for Antijote's comment. Ori.livneh (talk) 07:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You know, I looked at the section again and decided the whole thing was blatantly unencyclopedic, so I went ahead and deleted it. It's a shame, since it contains much that is interested and it is well-referenced, but it's simply not appropriate for Wikipedia, since it violates NPOV so thoroughly. Ori.livneh (talk) 07:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The "Interpretation" section is appropriate. It is not NPOV; academic interpretations are a pretty important part of a film and are unfortunately a rarity in film articles on Wikipedia. The section could use clean-up and be written more concisely, but it should be included. See similar precedents at American Beauty (film)#Interpretations, Mulholland Drive (film)#Interpretations and allusions, Barton Fink#Themes, and Interpretations of Fight Club. Erik (talk) 13:15, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Improve the summary and this entry

Someone must have watched the movie? Couldn't the summary be pithier and more gracefully written. Plus all those interpretations are POV! Do something! 121.7.186.179 (talk) 17:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Character Names?

I just watched the movie in the English dub (VHS version), and the character names appear to be different. I didn't hear the names Jen or Lo anywhere, and Li Mubai's friend was definely named Bela Ye, not Sir Te. (I'm going to go correct an error in the story summary but I'll leave the names alone since they might be specific to the dub.) Wpell (talk) 07:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

• I think Sir Te/Jen/etc are in the English subtitled version WhisperToMe (talk) 19:32, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

There Should Be A Movie, Very Entrique, With ((Wu'Fei&Mai)) Very Much As Is, Do-Jang, Could Be Something Like A Gor'Ye'Ya'Oh Kekkeo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.184.13 (talk) 18:46, 5 March 2014 (UTC)