Talk:Cross of Saint James

Images

The depicted black cross is not the cross as it is known. It neither has a sword blade, but more of a small picket, nor the fleury ending but rather something brushy. I replaced it with the more common depiction in Spain. Arnoutf 17:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• The image that was in place was apprpriate. Your removal of the cross image is a violation of WP:Point. Please stop. --evrik ^(talk) 17:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:James,_son_of_Zebedee#Images for a more complete discussion on this, and why I argue it is not appropriate. Arnoutf 22:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The text now explicitly states that "it was the emblem of the twelfth-century military Order of Santiago". Hence that the emblem of the order and the cross are one and the same. Why do we have two images then?????? This is plain weird and either need a lot of (referenced) explanation, or one of the two must be removed. Arnoutf 21:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

References

I removed the Cunnan reference for 2 reasons. First of all; it is a wiki, and wiki refering guidelines explicitly state that no reference to wiki articles is not a good reference. Secondly the reference as used implies that the Cross of StJames is a cross fitch fleury. But all that the cunnan article says is "In heraldry, a cross fitchy is any cross whose lower point has been converted into a long point. The term "fitchy" derives from the French for fixed, and indicates a cross that would be stuck into the ground. The cross represented here is a cross fitchy flory, because the other three points are that of a cross flory. " (which is never doubted; the point under debate is whether cross st James is one).

I also have some serious doubts about the (scientific) quality of the Seiyaku reference. That site states the following "Cross Barby or Cross Barbee; but not a cross Barbie; you'll have to check a doll website for that story!". That makes me seriously doubt the quality of the whole site. But I left that one on for now. Arnoutf 08:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What does the "Fitch" refer to? Chris 20:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I knew I should have learned to read. Chris 20:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

GOCE

Thanks to @Lindsey40186: for the work on the article. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Requests/Archives/2022#April–June. --evrik ^(talk) 22:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Cross of Saint James/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Etriusus (talk · contribs) 19:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll take this on. I am a bit concerned about if this page has enough to stand alone as its own article (essentially WP:NOTE). I see that the page received a go over by the Guild of Copyeditors (User:Lindsey40186), but I am still on the fence. I'll start the review for now but I'm hard-pressed to see how 7 sources (and one bible passage) can predicate a standalone page. Likewise, the page is rather small and I'd be surprised if there wasn't more information that could be included. Please use the  Done template, a strikethrough , or some other indication an issue has been resolved.

Sourcing

• What makes bakingmad.com (FN 4) a reliable source?✓ swapped the source with a better source
• What makes fsensations.com (FN 7) a reliable source? - Don't have a good answer for this
• Please check FN 8, I think FN 8 and FN 7 are backward. ✓

  Neither footnote states he was 'beheaded' only killed via a sword. Here is a better source: [1]Added source ✓

Images

• Most don't reach the threshold of originality to begin with.
• No issues noted.

Copy-vios

• Earwig picked up: '...in the form of a cross. It combines a cross fitchy with either a cross fleury...' ✓ Fixed

Prose

Lead

• A tad bit short in my opinion, really doesn't reflect the history or its uses.✓ added some more text

History

• The division between use and history seems rather arbitrary. Either expand these sections to justify the individual sections or merge the sections. ✓ Merged

Use

• There are a couple of famous paintings that use this cross. Just one example

File:Giovanni Battista Tiepolo - St Jacobus in Budapest.jpg not the best representation

Perhaps just mentioning it in prose would suffice, the page is already rather image-heavy. Etriusus (Talk) 16:50, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

The image above features a red Christian cross on the banner. There are other images. As this is about a symbol, the images are important. However, I'm not sure where to draw the line.

Design

• Through google, I have found a source that gives a description on how the design changed over time. (not sure on the source's reliability though, It is referencing a youtube video so I'll see if I can track down the original citations.)

Comment after reviewing There is a lot out there that is not included in this page. While I believe that the article can likely stand on its own due to a large amount of info yet to be added, in it current form I am uncertain that it'd survive an AfD. As of now, it mainly is missing criteria 3a. To be frank, there really isn't a lot to comment on since its already been copyedited and has very little content. I don't like quick-failing nominations (as I feel it's unfair to nominators) so I'll leave the review open for now. If you need/want any help, feel free to ask. Etriusus (Talk) 19:17, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Etriusus: I didn't know that size might be a criteria, but I expanded the article from 1900 characters to 3000 characters. I think I dealt with most of the issues above, and I think it's covering GAN 3a. It's been difficult finding RS in English, But I can continue to work on it. Your comments are appreciated. --evrik ^(talk) 17:16, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Evrik: So there is no hard and fast rule on page size. 1000 words, between 15kB-25kB, or ~2000-5000 characters have all been brought up as criteria but there is no formal rule. I rose the issue because just a cursory look online found more content that could be included and a 6kB sized page is really pushing some limits. Ultimately, GA reviewers have discretion as even short articles can be GA quality if they cover the topic in a sufficient amount of detail. One example: Si Ronda is a featured article (promoted at ~10kb in size). Granted, there are pages that can likely never reach GA status because they're so small and that then becomes an AfD issue.

  The work done so far looks excellent, I don't see as much of an issue with 3a anymore. I will give the page a full second pass later tonight. I'll also look for any additional content that might be worth including. Etriusus (Talk) 17:43, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

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Round 2

• 'of which the ends of the arms are forked and rounded.' is the source (FN 1) in the wrong place?
• 'The sword is said to represent both the courage of James,' I think a source got lost in the shuffle, neither the Acts passage nor the encyclopedia Britannica source supports this claim.
• viajarycelebrar.com is a blog, is it reliable?
• 'and carry out their daily devotions.' missing a source there

I placed FN 9 here, the content supports it (please double check)

@Evrik:: A few more issues to note. Etriusus (Talk) 21:05, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I've been travelling the last few days. I will look at this later this week. Thanks for checking in. --evrik ^(talk) 17:12, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@Evrik, any update on when you can address this? I hate to prod you since I am aware you're busy IRL. Etrius ( Us) 01:37, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

@Evrik It's been about ~10 days since you've been active. At this point, I am going to fail the page, mainly since I can't keep this review open indefinitely. I understand you are likely busy at the moment, and I am more than happy to pick this back up if/when you renom the page. Just ping me when you're ready. Etrius ( Us) 01:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Cross of Saint James/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Etriusus (talk · contribs) 03:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

As promised, I'm picking this review back up. Review will be forthcoming. 🏵️Etrius ( Us) 03:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Sources:

• "cross moline". Meriam Webster. FN 3 needs to be filled out, not thrilled about a tertiary source but it's fine for now
• '"The symbolic power of the Way of St. James". Five Sensations. August 25, 2015. Retrieved August 25, 2015.' Is this a reliable source?

• I recall that we didn't determine the veracity of this source

• St. James. Encyclopedia Britannica. January 1, 2022. Again, not thrilled with a tertiary source but I'll let it slide.
• '"Postres del Mundo. Galicia: La Tarta de Santiago". Viajar Y Celebrar (in Spanish). August 8, 2017.' this is a travel blog

Images:

• If you can make the gallery images larger, that would be ideal.
• Image rights appear to be in order

Copy-Vios:

• Random spot checks found nothing exciting.
• Earwig isn't flagging anything, only proper nouns and simple phrases

Misc:

• Nothing else

Prose

• It is used widely throughout Spain and Portugal. Remove 'widely'
• Again, this has been copy-edited to high heaven, there really isn't much left to do

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So sorry for taking a week to get this out, I've been all tied up with Med School Apps. Thankfully I'll have a little down time now.

• I worked on the images; swapped out both the encyclopedia and the dictionary. I found a new reference for the tart. Last item: Is five sensations a reliable source? Probably not. What to do? I am having trouble finding a reliable source for those two minor points. I could use the cathloic encylopeida for one, and maybe this for the other [[:File:Navarrete pavement camino marker.jpg|A pavement marker indicates the route of the Way of St James through Navarrete, La Rioja, Spain]]. --evrik ^(talk) 03:58, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

*I copied this message over from my talk page.

@Evrik: Images all look good, I am not particularly concerned about the tertiary sources since I understand that sourcing is limited. WP:Tertiary isn't an explicit forbidding, rather a general rule. I'd caution about adding too many images, there's already a link to the commons. Realistically, the fsensations source will need to be cut, unless there is some justification for it being reliable. I am personally unsure, it appears there may be some kind of editorial standard for the site but it also appears to be a blog run by one person. Is there a WP:BLOG rational?

I made an attempt to dig up sources on Newspapers.com, no such luck. Currently looking at Google Scholar to see if there's anything. 🏵️Etrius ( Us) 23:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

• What about just dropping the two sentences that use the source as a reference?--evrik ^(talk)<
  • @Evrik: That'll work fine. 🏵️Etrius ( Us) 13:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
  • @Etriusus: Done [2] --evrik ^(talk) 23:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

    @Evrik Looks good!! Thank you so much for putting up with my hectic schedule. At this point I think we're good to pass the article. It is well earned at this point, Congrats!!!. 🏵️Etrius ( Us) 02:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Edge3 (talk) 00:16, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Cross of Saint James

• ... that the Cross of Saint James gets its name from the mythic appearance of the Apostle James at the Battle of Clavijo? Source: "Saint James the Greater at the Battle of Clavijo|Blanton Museum of Art Collections". utw10658.utweb.utexas.edu. Retrieved 2022-07-20.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/715 Harrison
  • Comment: Once approved, can this please be held until July 25? Thank you.

Improved to Good Article status by Evrik (talk), Lindsey40186 (talk), and Etriusus (talk). Nominated by Evrik (talk) at 14:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Cross of Saint James; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article long enough, created recently enough to nominate and with no detected copyvios. QPQ has been met interesting hook, the image is in the public domain and the article complies with Wikipedia's policies (besides having the qualification of a good article). --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

• "unreliable source?" tags on citations 4 and 7. Edge3 (talk) 16:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• @Edge3: The page has changed since it made GA status. I swapped out the problematic source and even found the missing page number. --evrik ^(talk) 20:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks! There are two sentences near the end of the article: "The sword is said to represent both the James' role in the Battle of Clavijo..." and "The insignia is said to have originated from the mythical Battle of Clavijo..." These sentences seem redundant, so I'm wondering if you can consolidate them. Edge3 (talk) 21:14, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• @Edge3: Done. --evrik ^(talk) 23:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Comprehensive

Source which might be useful towards making the article more comprehensive:

• Dalton, Heather (2020). Santiago Matamoros|Mataindios. Routledge. ISBN 9780429949647. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)
• Tracchia, Gustavo (2007). "Flags, Medals, and Decorations". Raven: A Journal of Vexillology. 14: 85–104. doi:10.5840/raven2007144.
• Rodríguez-Picavea, Enrique (2012). "The Military Orders in Medieval Iberia | Image, propaganda and legitimacy" (PDF). Mirator.
• Staller, John E.; Stross, Brian (2013). Lightning in the Andes and Mesoamerica. Oup USA. ISBN 978-0-19-996775-9.
• Gilmour, John (1995). "Reliving an imperialist past — The extreme right, Franco and the Catholic Monarchs". Tesserae. 1 (2): 201–221. doi:10.1080/13507499508569411.
• Wagner-Pacifici, Robin (2021). "Portraits of courage: Caughtin the sovereign's gaze". European Journal of Cultural Studies. 24 (1): 107–122. doi:10.1177/1367549420985844. S2CID 232070184.
• McCrudden, Christopher (2016). On Portraying Human Dignity. SSRN 2797601.

This is just a sampling of what can be found towards helping this article meet 1b, comprehensive and 1c, well researched; I suspect there is much more to be found, but stopped there. Featured articles will not typically use encyclopedias as sources, even though those may squeak by at WP:GAN. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

• @SandyGeorgia: Thanks. --evrik ^(talk) 17:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)