Talk:Crimean Khanate

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Crimean Khanate article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Ukraine High‑importance

	Ukraine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Crimea Task Force.

Russia: History / Human geography High‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the human geography of Russia task force.

Former countries

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

European history High‑importance

	Europe portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Old talk

Gh in Ghiray is used for pronounciation only, so it's not pronounced as g in gibberish. The first sound is g as in get. The general spelling in Turkic languages is Giray, without the h after G. --Gene s 12:04, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is basic knowledge to anyone with the slightest knowlegde of any Turkic language and does not belong here. 195.175.37.70 01:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's precisely why this comment is useful -- very few people have even slightest knowledge of any Turkic language.

Sources

151.203.119.15, you seem to imply that Great Soviet Encyclopedia does not meet your criteria of a reputable source. Please list what in your opinion would make a source reputable. Please list sources which meet such criteria of yours.

Please DO NOT remove article attribution. The article indeed incorporates text from public domain GSE. Do you doubt that the article incorporates it? If not, your removal of the notice is borderline vandalism. 151.203.119.15 wrote:

<!-- Let's start using reputable sources

This article incorporates text from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia

-->

--Gene s 07:48, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A reputable source is "The Crimean Tatars: Studies of the Nationalities in the U.S.S.R.: Number 166" by Alan W. Fisher. Written by a serious historian, with no conflict of interest on the subject matter. It is not open source, but it is available on most bookstores, Amazon for example. Would be useful to scrutinize the contents of GSE. 68.160.186.38 10:20, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What portions of text in this article have been copied from the so-called Great Soviet Encyclopedia ? 151.203.121.120 13:37, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Great Soviet Encyclopedia

Gene_S, you say "07:51, 2 Jan 2005 Gene s (The source is Great Soviet Encyclopedia, whitten by professional historians.)" Why do you think GSE is a source of reliable and neutral information about the Crimean Khanate? 68.160.154.221 17:46, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I made a statement "The source is Great Soviet Encyclopedia, whitten by professional historians". Do you have any doubt that it was written by professional historians? Please don't mislabel your own ideas as mine. This is not my duty to defend the neutrality or reliability of the GSE. The information in the article is properly attributed with respect to the source, that's enough. If you have any other source of information, please add it to the article also attributing it properly. See WP:NPOV for guidance. --Gene s 07:48, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you are unwilling or unable to "defend the neutrality or reliability of the GSE" what is the point in copying such text in here?

Please practice what you preach and clearly mark the portions of the text you copied from GSE.

Please read Wikipedia:Civility

Please sign your writing by typing four tildas like this: ~~~~. --Gene s 10:03, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Gene s, are you planning to address the concerns raised about GSE? Don't worry, I am assuming good faith. 68.160.186.38 10:12, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am not worried. I am simply pointing out that you are not acting in a civil way.

I am not interested in a discussion of the possible bias of the GSE here because there is an article Great Soviet Encyclopedia where the bias is mentioned. If you disagree with some specific claims made in this article, please produce your own source and add the alternative POV, also attributing it properly. See WP:NPOV for guidance.

Do you have any specific objections regarding the article content? --Gene s 10:23, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Crimean Khanate invasions of Russia and Poland(Ukraine) (source:Vasily_Klyuchevsky, "The course of Russian History", vol.2)

The Crimean Khanate was known for frequent devastating raids into Ukraine and Russia. For a long time, until the early 18th century The Crimean Khanate maintained massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. One of the most known and important trading ports and slave markets was Kefe. A constant threat from The Crimean Khanate supported the appearance of cossackdom. Crimean tatars owning tactics of attacks in perfection, choosed a way on watersheds. The main way to Moscow was Muravski shliach, gone from crimean Perekop up to Tula between the rivers of two basins, Dnieper and Northern Donets. Having gone deep in the populated area on 100-200 kilometers, Tatars turned back and, having unwrapped wide wings, looted and captured slaves. Annually Moscow mobilized in the spring up to 65 thousand soldiers for boundary service. The defensive lines were applied, consisting of a circuit of fortresses and towns. Cossacks and young noblemen were in structure of sentry and patrol services that observed crimean tatars in steppe. To protect of invasions of The Crimean Khanate the Russian cities of Orel in 1566 and Voronezh in 1586 have been founded. ps. Dear author Black Sea, do not privatize this article and do not transform real history of Crimean khanate into false propagation. The Crimean Khanate was the aggressive state. Ben-Velvel 00:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not the right place for such language. If you are in doubt, check this article NPOV. BlackSea 15:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Khanate or Khaganate

Would the Crimean Khaganate be a better name? Just asking. --Irpen 01:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Khaganate is a name used for older Turkic states. I haven't seen any texts using this in the Crimean Tatar context. [[BlackSea 15:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)]][reply]
- The difference between Khan and Khagan is explained here: Khagan. The confusion arises because modern Mongolian has dropped the "ɣ" of Classical Mongolian "Khaɣan" making it "Khaan" which is translated the same as Khan in English. LuiKhuntek 09:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Painting

I'm having trouble seeing the relevance of the painting in the article to the subject matter.radek 19:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Golden Horde.gif

Image:Golden Horde.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The map

File:Crimean Khanate 1600.gif was uploaded in 2005. It isn't terrible, and I am sure it was made in best faith. Still, it isn't referenced, and it would be better to base it on some published maps. Specifically, it isn't made clear on what basis the borders of the Crimean Khanate in 1600 are reconstructed, and why or in what sense the Kuban Nogai territory is included. I now included reference to a map dated 1729 which shows the borders of the Crimean Khatate at that point (more than a century later), and it may be better to redraw the overview map based on this reference (or else find an actual source for the situation in 1600). --dab (𒁳) 12:16, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Dbachmann: I know this is an old thread, but I agree that the map (AGF or not) is unsourced and a breach of WP:NOR. Good faith WP:SYNTH is SYNTH, non-the-less, so I'm going BOLD and removing it. The user who uploaded it doesn't seem to have been around any wiki projects for over a decade, so there's not much point in querying the source/s. It's a nice 'wish list' map for someone to create, but it really does need to be supported by RS in order to make sense of it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Following this line of inquiry, the flags and emblems are equally - if not more - problematic. The blue and gold/yellow flag and emblem strike me as being modern/revisionist 'interpretations' based on the colours of the modern Ukrainian flag. The other emblem looks just as dubious as it incorporates the Cyrillic 't'... which I sincerely doubt was used by the Khanate. Again, without sourcing, and due to big question marks popping up around the authenticity of these flags and emblems, I think they should be eliminated from the infobox. Any thoughts? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Grand Nogay Horde?

why is Grand Principality of Moscow(more known as Muscovy in english) regarded as a Nogai horde (on the map)? Muscovy was formed from northern principalities: Vladimir,Novgorod,Perm.. and didn't exist in 1600 (it turned into the Tsardom of Russia in 1547) Nogais were mainly Golden Horde and their descendants: Crimean Khanate - one of them (hence their name comes from Nogai - general/ruler of the Golden Horde: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Nogai_Khan ) basically north-east of Crimean Khanate have been a bunch of other Golden Horde descendants (Kazakh Khanate & Khanate of Astrakhan directly touching) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gendalv (talk • contribs) 05:02, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Crimean Khanate. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Crimean Khanate. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:16, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lasted longest?

Why does it say the Crimean Khanate lasted the longest? The Kazakh Khanate seems to have lasted longer.

-Haydossy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haydossy (talk • contribs) 01:54, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kazakh Khanate lived 262 years but Crimean Khanate existed through 342 years. Ultimete (talk) 13:26, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

Situatiom

What we have now

What we are to have

Half of the article is about slave trade. Crimean Khanate used to be one of the most influensive state in Eastern Europe until 18th century. It's not only about slave trading and raiding.Devlet Geray (talk) 15:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again, Devlet Geray. I agree that this article could do with development, and would be more than happy to see someone using reliable sources in order to develop it. I know you speak a number of languages (from your user page), so we don't have to rely on English articles alone. They must be reliable and verifiable. I have a grasp of the languages you speak, but not Crimean Tartar. Feel free to run your sourced material by me. Best regards. Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:56, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Iryna Harpy, maybe you can help me improve this article? --Devlet Geray (talk) 15:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Devlet Geray. Yes, I've noticed that KIENGIR reverted your change, and I agree with them: they help to centre the reader on an historical understanding of the region. It's not, however, a part of Southern East European/Turkic/Crimean Tartar history I'm acquainted with, and is lacking in reliable sourcing as it stands. It seems to have developed in bits and pieces over the years, and could do with the two of you starting a discussion on this talk page so that other editors (including myself) have a chance to review what content is being presented, and how best to present it with sourcing. If users are just going to make changes and revert them with solid argument for changes, as well as where consensus was reached for the article as it stands, all that'll be accomplished is editing warring which doesn't benefit the article or Wikipedia's readers. We can move ahead in a civil manner. If not, it may be a good candidate for the Dispute resolution noticeboard. I believe the article to be extremely "Eastern Slavic side of the story", but am not certain as to where reliable material from the Tartar POV is to be found. Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with Iryna Harpy,

give an assurance the maps will return...Devlet Geray before i would make a revert again, could you please demonstrate which territories of present-day Romania and Bulgarian were under the Crimean Khanate? Thank You.(KIENGIR (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC))[reply]

These:

Can you back this up with something, since I don't see those territories part of the Khanate on the pictures i.e. (not even in those you removed)...(KIENGIR (talk) 15:36, 31 May 2020 (UTC))[reply]

@KIENGIR: what's the problem with Tarak tamga and this article in general? Beshogur (talk) 16:45, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beshogur, sorry, what is Tarak tamga? About the article, the above mentioned issue have been solved, my concerns were accurate. Recently I don't know about any striking issue.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:33, 31 December 2020 (UTC))[reply]

@KIENGIR: that symbol used by Tatars. Beshogur (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The capitals, the flag and others

I've edited Crimean Khanate article by standing Halil İnalcık,who is a Turkish historian with Crimean Tatar origin, Great Russian Encyclopedia and Russian Wikipedia. I've changed inaccurate dates and added Nogai language which is very important for the Khanate as common language. I can understand why you deleted flag but i can't deleting reason of the others. Could you explain me why did Vif12vf delete the infos i have added? Ultimete (talk) 07:36, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimete, the Russian Wikipedia, or any other Wikipedia for that matter, is not a reliable source. You'll need to find different sources - perhaps the ones the Russian Wikipedia cites. I don't see any issues with using İnalcık's works and the Great Russian Encyclopedia. Alaexis_¿question? 14:05, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the flag according to İnalcık's book but it is re-changed. Also or-kapi is mentioned as a ruling centre of the Khanate in his book. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense because golden horde captured all the peninsula except perekop(or-kapi) in that date. Ultimete (talk) 15:03, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many Problems with the Lede & Map

It is true the Crimean khans presented themselves as legitimate heirs of Qipchaq / Golden Horde, but those claims have no place taking centre stage in an encyclopedia article about the Crimean khanate as it existed XV-XVIII centuries. The present map is a deep misinterpretation of the cited source Темушев, С. Н. (2021). История крымских татар в пяти томах (Том III) p. 1026, since Temushev's map actually colors in the real territories of the khanate, instead of the dotted line.

The removed older map https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Crimean_Khanate_1600.gif is much better (and the borders agree with Temushev). I see it came under criticism earlier for being unsourced, so I wanted to discuss it here, but I see no reason not to reinstate it. If someone can add a genuinely better map, that'd be great, but that is no reason to just remove it.

The lede could use expanding. Additionally, I would take issue with a lot of dubious additions I see to try and make the Giray khanate "fit" the Wikipedia format. It did not have a coat of arms in the European tradition, and the cited name (Taht-i Qırım) looks like something taken from a treaty text rather than a consistent definition used in the state.

Aglesaquila (talk) 05:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]