Talk:Crew cut

For a previous VFD discussion on this article, see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Crew cut.

"of the time" & citation

"The term was most likely coined to describe the haircut worn by members of the Yale rowing crew. The name drew a contrast with football players of the time, who wore long hair to compensate for flimsy leather helmets." What time period? And shouldn't this all be cited? 98.221.133.96 (talk) 13:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

1910-1920s. You are welcome. Ortolan88 (talk) 16:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Actually, 1890s, but you are still welcome. Ortolan88 (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The link at the Yale Alumni Magazine article gives the time as the mid 1920's. The Riddell link is dead. However I managed to find the article. There is nothing in the article with regard to the sport of Crew or a contrast between Rower's haircuts and Football players haircuts. It was Princeton Football that purportedly started wearing long hair. In 1895 Yale Football players showed up with short hair cuts which of course could not have been called Crew Cuts since the name wasn't coined for another three decades.BB Sean M (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The name appears to have come into use in the ivy league in the late 1890's to early 1900's. It is only the name that is unique to that era, not the hairstyle itself which dates back several hundred years. History section expanded with citations added. MiltonPB (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

image

isn't that a butch hair cut? it looks extremely short to me... 70.48.118.140 20:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

It's actually a Recon Haircut as the hair is shaved completely off the back and sides and with the shaved area extending on to the crown. There is no transition tapering between skin and hair. A very extreme haircut even for Marines. It would be ridiculous enough to have a Photo of a Hn'T Crew Cut as Representative of a Crew Cut since a Hn' T Crew Cut is an extreme variant that has been worn by very few guys who wear Crew Cuts both at present and from a historical perspective, but having a photo of a Recon is just spreading misinformation. For example here is a public photo of the Back and Side of a Marine wearing a Hn'T Crew Cut( The Marine on the far left.):

Hn'T Crew Cut

BB Sean M (talk) 19:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC) == butc

Butch (haircut) links to lesbian page. I've removed the sentence since it contributes nothing to the article--all it does is suggest a synonym. 24.63.170.16 16:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I put butch cut back in as it is a legitimate synonym (underscored by adding butch wax), but did not link it to lesbians, although I'd be willing to bet that the term butch is derived from the name of this haircut. Ortolan88 (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Butch Cut is not a synonym for Crew Cut. Crew cut is a 20th century American English name for a Short Pompadour or Short Pomp Haircut. There were two varieties of Short Pomps. The Round Top which acquired the name Crew Cut and the Brush Top which acquired the 20th Century American English name Flat Top. A Brush Top Short Pomp was also know as a Short Cut with a Brush Top Effect. A Short Pomp was also know as a Brush Cut. So Short Pomp = Brush Cut = Crew haircut = Crew Cut and Flat Top Crew Cut or later Flat Top. And Short Brush Cut = Butch Haircut = Butch Cut = Butch. The difference between a Crew Cut and a Butch is in the design of the top. The back and sides are largely cut the same. The top of a Crew cut is graduated in length from the longest hair at the front hairline to the shortest at the back of the crown. The effect is that when viewed from the front a Crew Cut has a slight curve from side to side. When the head is viewed in side profile the outline of a Crew Cut approaches the horizontal. The graduation of length is in accord to the desired length at the front hairline and the degree of slope of the skull to the front hairline and the desired length at the back of the crown. Whatever it takes to approach a horizontal appearance when viewed in side profile and with the hair combed back up off the forehead and standing on end in the short pompadour style. A typical Ivy League Style Crew cut might be 1.5" at the Front hairline and 0.5" at the back of the crown. Butch Wax is used to groom Butch Cuts, Crew Cuts and Flat Tops.

Butch was and still is used to describe very masculine boys and often and to a certain extent still is a nickname given to such boys. It is less used now for boys and for a while fell out of use to describe butch haircuts because of the words recent use to describe a certain type of lesbian BB Sean M (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Very Interesting: Speaking as a survivor of that era, once the proud possessor of a Duck's Ass of the Detroit variety, it is a fact that common Americans commonly interchanged butch, flattop and crew cut; short pomp is certainly a much rarer term. I think you should put this stuff about the short pomp etc. in the article. Your distinctions of these styles are valuable and clear. I imagine these definitions reflect usage in the tonsorial arts rather than by the customers. Ortolan88 (talk) 22:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC) PS -- That is to say, they are synonyms, but, like many other synonyms, they don't mean exactly the same thing. It would be not at all surprising for the 14-year-old me to have said, "I used butch wax on my crew cut to get back the flattop. Maybe if my barber and I had had your command of the distinctions, I would have had more success with my Detroit than I did. O88

The haircut names were apparently used interchangeably in colloquial conversation among friends but were also generally used by customers to describe the haircuts the names specifically referred to. Those are the same names that were used to describe the haircuts on the standard haircutting charts that were on the walls of many Barber Shops of that era. The chart seen on the wall of Floyd's Barber Shop in the Andy Griffith show was the most popular. The other popular chart was the "Modern Haircutting Chart," the one seen on the back wall of the Concrete Barber Shop in the movie "Boy's Life." Both charts depict a Crew Cut, Ivy League, Butch and Flat Top. The Floyd's Chart's Flat Top with Fenders is essentially a Flat Top Boogie on the "Modern Haircutting Chart." At the same time it should be recognized that the short haircut represented by the word Crew Cut was at first popular in the Ivy League and at eastern prep schools. References to the word in the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's usually are linked with something to do with an Ivy League University, Student, Alumnus, Professor or Style.

For instance:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,763809,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,804905,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,890994,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,943335,00.html

http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/02_04/old_yale.html

http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/1168

Among the general population, Crew cut probably did not come into widespread usage till the 1950's when the style became popular among a wider segment of the population. Flat Top was first Flat Top Crew Cut to distinguish the type of Crew Cut with a Flat Top from the version with a Round Top which accounts for Crew Cuts and Flat Tops both being referred to as Crew Cuts in general conversation of that era. It was a later convention in that era to refer to a Flat Top Crew Cut as a Flat Top rather than a Crew Cut. Some may have referred to a Crew Cut as a Butch in conversation among friends but I doubt a guy would say he wanted a Butch to a Barber unless he indeed did want a Butch Cut rather than a Crew Cut or Flat Top. Butch and GI cut are often seen used interchangeably and were likely synonyms of that era.

One very popular Barbering text in a completely revised 1967 edition states that many barbers refer to a Crew Cut as a Short Pompadour or a Brush Cut. This text was originally published in 1938. I have a 1959 reprint of the 1938 edition and no where in it are the words Crew Cut, Flat Top or Butch Cut found. Instead Short Pompadour, Brush Top Short Pompadour, Round Top Short Pompadour, Short Cut with a Pompadour effect, and Short Cut with hair following the natural shape of the head. Another very popular barbering text that had also been published since the late 1930's in a 1971 reprint of the 8th edition, 1969, states that until a few years ago crew cut was used synonymously with short pompadour or brush cut. This text gives Short Brush Cut as an alternative name for a Butch Cut. In the College and High School Yearbooks I have seen from the 1950's and 1960's, I have not yet come upon one that has more than a handful of photos of guys with Butch Cuts. Flat Tops, Crew Cuts and Ivy Leagues each far outnumber the Butches.BB Sean M (talk) 02:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I propose replacing the photo of a Marine who is obviously not wearing a crew cut but an extreme Recon haircut with a Wikipedia Commons photo of a Crew cut Naval Academy Plebe participating in the Herndon Climb. It is a short crew cut, approximately 8/10" at the center of the front hairline with the hair on top graduated shorter in length, to about 3/8", at the back of the crown and the sides tapered down to around 1/4" at the top of the ears. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_030519-N-5319A-003_A_United_States_Naval_Academy_freshman_%28Plebe%29_climbs_.jpg This photo offers a much better representation of a crew cut to anyone viewing this page. MiltonPB (talk) 16:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC) MiltonPB (talk) 16:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Since no one has stated an opinion on replacing the photo I am going to replace it. It makes no sense for 10,000-15,000 people per month to come to this page and see a photo of a recon haircut represented as a crew cut. That is spreading misinformation. I looked for a photo on the same theme. It is a photo of a Crew Cut Marine Lieutenant crossing the finish line in first place at the All Marine Cross Country Championship this past January. His crew cut is approximately 1.25" at the center of the front hair line graduated in length to 3/8" at the back of the crown. Mid to upper sides cut at 1/4"; lower sides and short sideburns cut at 3/32". Edge at the nape tapered to the skin. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Crew_Cut_Marine_Lieutenant_wins_All-Marine_Cross_Country_Championship.jpg MiltonPB (talk) 08:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC) MiltonPB (talk) 08:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Several high resoluton images added. Jack Kerouac wearing a short crew cut, circa 1943. Michigan Baseball 1953 with members wearing a variety of crew cuts. Thirteen year old Ricky Nelson wearing a longish crew cut. High resolution side profile photo is now placed directly below the photo that shows the front view of the same person. MiltonPB (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Crew Cut: alternate names

A few of the more common alternate English language names for a Crew Cut. Most are for a Long Crew Cut. Ivy League which is short for Ivy League Crew cut. Also Princeton and Princeton Cut, Standard Crew Cut, Classic Crew Cut, French Crop, Olympic Cut and Harvard Clip. In addition Short Pompadour, Short Pomp, Round Top Short Pomp and Brush Cut are as has already been discussed, names that have been used far longer than Crew Cut to describe the style.BB Sean M (talk) 19:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Short pompadour, round top and brush top discussed in history section. Edited to clarify the difference between a crew cut and a butch and that any crew cut can be referred to as a buzz cut. Variations section re-integrated into first paragraph. It is germane to understanding the style and not an explanation of the variants, each of which has an entry. MiltonPB (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Adopted by United States armed forces during WWII

The Crew Cut may have been worn by certain members of the United Sates Armed Forces during WWII but stating the Crew Cut was adopted implies that there was some sort of order or decree that Crew Cuts had to be worn by all male members of the armed forces.

A short butch cut was the typical United States armed forces induction cut during WWII, referred to at the time as a GI cut but was that required after training was completed?

Also the wearing of a butch haircut was not unique to the United States armed forces during WWII. The practice started during WWI with the British, as a means to combat insect spread diseases such as trench fever, which is spread by lice. However, Trench Fever is spread by body lice not head lice. Head lice are not known to spread disease. BB Sean M (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The WWII induction cut style appears to have been a crew cut and rather than a butch . The current very short butch induction cut style seems to be relatively recent. MiltonPB (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Crew Cut and Conservative Political Opinions

In 1964, and 1965 the left and the new left were by and large not wearing long hair. In many of the photos of the FSM at Berkeley, guys are seen wearing short taper cuts, Ivy League Crew Cuts, and Flat Top Crew Cuts along with a coat and tie. Almost no one is wearing long hair. The Left and New Left at the time eschewed the Beatnik and Hippy Fashions. It was later, beginning in 1966 when the hippy fashions started to creep into the New Left. Equating wearing a Crew Cut with conservative political views in the mid 1960's is not exactly accurate. This is more true from 1969 on, after Nixon became President. It is more appropriate with regard to the mid 1960's to indicate that long hair was becoming a symbol, of protest against conscription to fight an unpopular foreign war escalated by a liberal President with the backing of a liberal Congress. Long hair also was becoming a symbol of one's approval or adherence to the new social conventions such as the use of psychedelic drugs, free love and lack of respect for private property and authority of all types. By 1969 a Crew Cut tended to indicate more traditional social views of either the Crew cut wearer or the person dictating the Crew Cut the individual wore.BB Sean M (talk) 19:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Buzz Cut a Similar Style

Crew cuts, Flat Tops, Ivy Leagues and Butches have all been referred to as Buzz Cuts . The untapered often self cut pseudo Butch haircuts of the late 90's often referred to as a Buzz Cut are only similar to a Crew cut in that both are short haircuts. Beyond that there is almost no similarity. The back and sides and especially top are of entirely different design. A Crew Cut is a highly stylized all over Taper cut and takes skill to cut. Guiding guarded clippers over ones skull to produce a late 90's Buzz Cut takes almost no skill and produces a cut that instead of being tapered to varying lengths from the edge of the hairline at the nape and around the ear arches to the longest hair at the front hairline of a Crew Cut, is of uniform length all over the head. There is no tapering at all.

In addition, Flat Top Crew Cuts had a bout of mild popularity from the early to mid 1980's till about the late 1990's to early years of the new millennium, when the so called Buzz Cut became the popular short haircut.BB Sean M (talk) 19:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Now indicates that any crew cut can be referred to as a buzz cut. MiltonPB (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Clippers, Blades and Guards

Human scalp hair grows on average about 0.5" per month. The following is premised on an average rate of scalp hair growth.

The hair on the top of a Crew Cut and Flat Top Crew Cut is graduated in length. In most cases, the hair on the top of a Butch haircut is of uniform length. Therefore the top of a Crew Cut and Flat Top Crew Cut must be cut clipper over comb, shears over comb, freehand with clippers, clipper over finger(crew cut only), or shears over finger(crew cut only.) The middle sections of the back and sides and the edge are often cut with the aid of clipper guards, detachable blades that cut a specific length, or adjustable taper or fade clippers. In contrast, not only the edge, back and sides; but also the top of a Butch haircut may be cut with the teeth of the guard or clipper blade in direct contact with the scalp.

Most Clipper Guards are numbered in eighths of an inch. The number of the guard denoting the # of week's hairgrowth left on the scalp when a clipper with a certain numbered guard is guided over the head with the guard in contact with the scalp:

A #1 Guard leaves one week's hairgrowth or 1/8" = 3mm of hair growth on the scalp.

A #2 Guard leaves two week's hair growth or 2/8" = 6.3mm hairgrowth on the scalp and so on.

Rotary clippers have blades that readily snap on and off. Blades are available that leave from 2.5 hour's to 6 week's hair growth on the scalp when the Clipper is guided over the head with the teeth of the clipper blade in contact with the scalp. Blades are named differently than guards.

Fine cutting Blades (Also referred to as Zero Blades):

a #0000000 blade leaves 2.5 hour's hair growth, 1/500" = 0.05mm of hair on the scalp.

a #000000 blade leaves 5 hour's hair growth, 1/250" = 0.1mm of hair on the scalp.

a #00000 blade leaves 10 hour's hair growth, 1/125" = 0.2mm of hair on the scalp.

a #0000 blade leaves 15 hour's hair growth, 1/100" = 0.3mm of hair on the scalp.

a #0000A blade leaves 20 hour's hair growth, 1/75" = 0.4mm of hair on the scalp.

a #000 blade leaves one day's hair growth, 1/50" = 0.5mm of hair on the scalp.

a #00 blade leaves a day and a half's hair growth, 1/30"= 0.8mm of hair on the scalp.

a #0 blade leaves two day's hair growth, 1/25" = 1mm of hair on the scalp.

an #0A blade leaves 2.5 day's hair growth, 3/64" = 1.2mm of hair on the scalp.

Coarse cutting blades, #1, #1A, #1.5:

a #1 Blade leaves 5 day's hair growth, 3/32" = 2.4mm of hair on the scalp.

a #1A blade leaves one week's hair growth, 1/8" = 3.2mm of hair on the scalp.

a #1.5 blade leaves 9 day's hair growth, 5/32" = 4.0mm of hair on the scalp.

Very Coarse cutting blades, #2, #3.5 and #3.75:

a #2 blade leaves two week's hair growth, 1/4" = 6mm of hair on the scalp.

a #3.5 blade leaves three week's hair growth, 3/8" = 10 mm of hair on the scalp.

a #3.75 blade leaves one four week's hair growth, 1/2" = 13mm hair on the scalp.

Longer cutting blades:

a 5/8 H/T leaves five week's hair growth, 5/8" = 16 mm hair on the scalp.

a 3/4 H/T leaves six week's hair growth, 3/4" = 19 mm hair on the scalp.

Specialty Blades:

In addition there are a number of skip tooth or thinning blades that only cut a number of the hairs that pass through their teeth to a selected length and leave the rest of the hair uncut. Several manufacturers make a blade that is wider than the clipper head to facilitate cutting the deck of a Flat Top Crew Cut.

Taper Clippers:

Taper clippers are powered by a linear or pivot motor rather than a rotary motor. The blades are not readily interchangeable on Taper clippers. Taper clippers have an adjustable lever that sets the cutting length within a certain range usually from #000 blade length = 1/50" = 0.5 mm on the short side to #1 length = 3/32" = 2.4 mm on the long side. For longer lengths clipper guards are attached. The Guard will cut at the numbered guard length when the taper lever is in the shortest cutting position.

Fade Clippers:

Fade clippers are identical to Taper Clippers with the exception of the range of the cutting lengths. Most Fade clippers cut between #00000 blade length = 1/125" = 0.2 mm on the short side to #000 blade length = 1/50" = 0.5 mm on the long side. As with regular taper clippers, clipper guards can be attached for longer cutting lengths.BB Sean M (talk) 01:46, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Globalization Header

This article concerns the haircut known as a Crew Cut in English. The name was coined in the United States in the 1920's to describe what up to the time and still can be referred to as a Short Pompadour or Short Pomp haircut, or Brush cut. Short Pomps were worn by members of Ivy League College Crew Teams. Hence the names Crew cut and Ivy League. More specifically Crew cut describes the round top short pomp haircut. The brush top short pomp acquired the American English name Flat Top Crew Cut and later Flat Top. Crew cuts and Flat Top Crew cuts had been worn for hundreds of years before being known by these names. A Crew cut and a Flat Top Crew Cut are known by other names in other Languages. Regardless of the names, the haircuts are the same. There is no world view. If that were the case then every article in Wikipedia would have to be translated into every language for there to be a world view. By what name is a Crew cut known in Chinese? As one could see in the recent Olympic coverage, Crew cuts were worn by certain Chinese athletes but I doubt they use the word Crew cut to describe the style. Since a significant percent of the world's population speaks Chinese, can one say the article does not have a world view unless it includes the Chinese name for a Crew cut? There may be people in certain countries who misapply the name Crew cut to short haircuts that truly aren't Crew cuts but then there are those in the United States who do the same. In particular there are those who misapply the name Crew cut to a Butch or Short Brush Cut. The difference is in the design of the top. A Crew cut is graduated in length on top in accord to the slope of the skull to the front hairline, so that the outline of the haircut approaches the horizontal when the head is viewed in side profile. From side to side a Crew cut rounds to varying degrees with the skull. A Butch or Short Brush Cut conforms to the skull shape in side profile and in most cases is of uniform length on Top. If there is any graduation of length with a Butch or Short Brush cut it is relatively minor in comparison to a Crew cut. A Crew Cut typically has about a 300% proportional gain in length from the back of the crown to the longest hair at the front hairline. A Butch or Short Brush cutthat is graduated in length on Top might have up to a 50% proportional change in length from the Back of the crown to the front hairline. In addition a Butch or Short Brush Cut that is uniform in length across the Top might also have a bit of quickly graduated longer hair that arises just immediately before the front hairline. For a few Butch or Short Brush Cuts Cuts and Crew cuts there is a gray area of what is a Butch or Short Brush Cut and what is a Crew cut but for most Crew cuts and Butch Cuts it is evident if the haircut is a Crew cut or a Butch. As far as the the Image, it looks more like a Recon haircut than a Crew Cut. It isn't a good representation of a Crew Cut in the United States. This is discussed above.BB Sean M (talk) 15:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Added that a crew cut is known by other names in other languages such as coupe en brosse and bürstenschnitt. MiltonPB (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

References for Crew Cut Definitions in 1st Paragrah

The definition of a Crew Cut in the 1st paragraph is paraphrased from the most widely used English Language Barbering texts of the 20th century: L.S. Trusty, The Art and Science of Barbering, 8th ed, 1969, 1971 Reprint, pg 107-113. S.C. Thorpe, Practice and Science of Standard Barbering, 1967, pg 129 - 135. BB Sean M (talk) 02:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Needs a new photo

We need a photo of just someone’s head so we can really see the haircut in the photo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.251.140.18 (talk) 18:34, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Replaced a fairly low resolution head shot photo, allegedly a Soldier with a Crew Cut, with a high resolution side profile photo of a crew cut with a semi short taper on the back and sides. The prior head shot photo is a Marine rather than a Soldier but more importantly the hairstyle is not exactly a crew cut. It appears to be a very short faux hawk on quite curly hair, though it is hard to say for sure due to the low resolution. Added a fairly high resolution photo of football(soccer)star Lukas Podolski wearing a rather short crew cut, about 3/4" at the front hairline. The final photo added gives a frontal view of the new side profile head shot photo. MiltonPB (talk) 04:09, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Replaced photo of Marine with with an undetermined haircut for reasons stated above. MiltonPB (talk) 20:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Too many images

Could we trim back some of the photos? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Anna, the photos are all in what was formerly white space. A picture is purportedly worth a thousand words, so, with this type of article, not sure how one defines too many with regard to a style that is not one size fits all. Though all crew curs are within the realm of short hair, proportionally speaking, there is a significant difference between a crew cut that is three fourths of an inch at the front and a crew cut that is an inch and a half at the front, a two hundred percent difference in length, six weeks of growth for a guy whose hair grows at the average rate of 1/8" per week. The article's photos offer a fairly good indication of the possible range, including photos of guys with widow peak receded hairlines, and are a good use of white space and make for a better article and understanding of the style than can be achieved by words alone.

Thanks! MiltonPB (talk) 00:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I arranged some of them into a gallery for easier viewing. --Turn685 (talk) 13:33, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Turn685, having the photos in a gallery does not exactly make for easier viewing. Most of the gallery photos are so small that the style of haircut is not discernible at all in thumbnail form and a reader has to click on the thumbnail to get any idea of the style of crew cut in the photo. While some of the crew cuts in the photos were small when not in gallery form, at least the crew cuts for the most part are perceptible enough to know whether one wishes to click on the image to enlarge it. The photos were placed in white space, which is reintroduced when a gallery is added.

Thanks! MiltonPB (talk) 00:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Milton, I agree that an article on a visual topic should have multiple examples of the subjects. I noticed though that two of the athletic photos look similar (here [1] and here [2]) so they are kind of like duplicates. As a suggestion I think there could be more examples of diversity in the photos (using historical examples mentioned like here[3]) Something that was disconcerting to me was that the image of Auguste Rodin was removed and I feel it is a good example of this haircut in the 1800's outside of the U.S. It might help to have image captions expanded to reflect the various unique features of the style (length, height idk). I can see what you mean about white space, it is annoying but splitting the references into 2 columns would help it I think. --Turn685 (talk) 19:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Turn685, (here [4] and here [5]) differ in several aspects. Obviously, one is a photo of rowers and the other of basketball players. The crew cut has been popular in both sports. Currently on some college basketball teams such as Princeton or Wisconsin, nearly every guy wears some type of crew cut. The idea was to show that the haircut was and is popular with athletes across numerous sports not just crew or crew and football. With respect to the photo of the basketball players, it is a higher resolution image than the USNA Boathouse photo and shows a college basketball player, Jack Mullen, with a widow peak receded hairline, wearing a crew cut. The USNA Boathouse photo,[6] shows guys with larger than average foreheads wearing crew cuts. The one guy in the photo with a widow peaked hairline similar to Jack Mullen's is in the background, 2nd from the left, and not that visible. The USNA boathouse photo complements the adjacent Sprint football photo which also shows several guys with widow peaked hairlines wearing crew cuts. Exposing a less than perfect hairline or a larger forehead with a short haircut is a major issue of concern to guys with less than perfect hairlines and it helps to see a short style on guys with different face shapes and features and fully exposed less than perfect hairlines and not just one isolated example. Some young guys now days have been conditioned to believe that when their hairline even slightly recedes, the only choice is to shave it all off. Another not uncommon issue with guys is that a style like a crew cut might suit a sports uniform or a sports uniform and causal clothes but not a suit and tie which is the rationale for the photo of the guy with suit and tie, [7] It's actually challenging to find suitable photos of guys with a certain hairstyle that can be used in a Wikipedia article. While there may be numerous photos of crew cut guys in Wikimedia, there is no practical way of finding Wikimedia photos with certain attributes like a guy wearing a crew cut since when photos are entered into Wikimedia such details as the style of haircut are not required to be attributed to the photo. Writing on the topic of male hairstyles in Wikipedia is somewhat of a challenge since information has to be sourced and there really is not a lot of information in reliable sources out there on guy's hairstyles in any specific period. Even today, if one searches newspapers and periodicals for information regarding the most common hairstyles of the day worn by a majority of guys, there is little information available. Even television and motion pictures are not that much help; with regard to the history of a crew cut. Although the style was ubiquitous in the 1950's and through the 1960's, at least the first half, and even during the second half of the 60's, for the overwhelming majority, was a far more common style than hair long enough to cover any part of the ear, one certainly would not be left with that impression by viewing television shows or movies of the period. It has been noted that there is a tendency towards verbosity, so getting back on track. With regard to the Rodin photo, it is doubtful that his hairstyle was ever called a crew cut during his lifetime. The same goes for Hofmannsthal [8]. In Rodin's time and language, the haircut would have been called a coupé en brosse which would not translate as crew cut or anything to do with crew or rowers. Translated into English of that day, it would have been a brush cut which was commonly known as a pompadour and later short pompadour. In Rodin's era when the word pompadour was not modified it meant short pompadour. Note La Pompadour style on this 1884 US Barber shop haircut chart [9] Note this page from an over 100 year old barbering text, http://i.imgur.com/tB3bHtQ.jpg It is interesting that the "porcupine effect" is noted given the current Russian word for crew cut. Porcupine is fairly close to hedgehog. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%91%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%BA There is a Wikipedia pompadour article with a men's pompadour section Pompadour_(hairstyle)#Men.27s_styles but that section makes it seem as if all men's pompadours are long and the style began in the 1950's. It seems that the appropriate place for Rodin photos is in a rewritten and greatly expanded men's pompadour section of that article. The article could be reoriented with the men's pompadour section first since it is a more important men's style than women's and alphabetically men's precedes women's. Began to edit/expand/source that section offline a while back but have been busy and not had a chance to work on it recently. From researching available information, it appears that the word crew cut came into use at some point from the late 1800's to early 1900's. Believe the 20 volume Oxford English Dictionary attributes its first usage around 1938. Have not been able to find earlier usage than 1935 in The Harvard Crimson... http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1935/11/23/obecure-origins-of-the-crew-haircut/ ...and that was of crew haircut. Earliest usage of crew cut can find in the Cornell Daily Sun, 1937... http://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/cornell?a=d&d=CDS19370325.2.19&e=--------20--1-------- Also note the title referring to the style as pompadours not short pompadours. In turn of the century barbering texts, a style that is illustrated, either what would now be called a crew cut or flat top, is referred to interchangeably as either a pompadour or short pompadour. Even when the same text has descriptions of medium and long pompadours. As the above articles indicate, the style was being called a crew cut on those campuses quite a bit earlier. Also should mention that while one cannot find instances of a certain hairstyle referred to as a crew cut in these or other college newspapers one can find usage of the words crew cuts even into the 19th century wherein it is referring to guys who went out for the crew team and those who made the team. It appears they are using the word as a double entendre in a similar fashion to how contemporary sportswriters use the term sports briefs. Maybe it is even a triple entendre as apparently for some college crew teams, freshmen team members were required to wear short crew cuts. In American college crew, freshmen were not allowed to row on varsity boats. One can speculate that crew cuts may have been referring to the hairstyle of the prospective freshmen crew team members, the fact they were required to get a very short crew cut to go out for the team and then were cut. This is from U of Washington, a perennial rowing power, spring of 1949, http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/c427fb7bae5190b5_large Alas, would be great to be able to use photos like the above and below in Wikipedia.... http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/0633e3d1a8f4143b_large This also ties in with crew being the first intercollegiate college sport. The Harvard Yale Regatta/boat race in 1852 was the first intercollegiate competition. The Game, Harvard Yale football game first occurred in 1875. Crew obviously had a significant influence on fashion trends as crew neck sweater, crew neck shirt, crew socks all refer to fashion trends related to crew. It seems that it is possible that the word crew cut when used to refer to male hairstyles may not have only referred to a short pompadour style in the late 1800's and early 1900's but may have been used to contrast the longer styles of football players with the shorter styles of crew team members including short pomp styles, sort of like the word clean cut which does not refer to a specific short style when used to refer to male haircuts, then later in the 1920's to 1930's came to be widely used to refer specifically to a short pomp style but this is just conjecture. Verbosity again.... MiltonPB (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I know that the long horizontal photos won't work in a galley type setting but some of the smaller proportional photos could be organized into one? I'm not an expert on layout here but I know you can make the image sizes bigger and make the rows have more images so they take up white space (I don't know how this renders on bigger screens but it would balance I think). I agree with others in that there's a lot of images. It wouldn't hurt to prune a couple that look like duplicates. Thanks for addressing your changes here. --Turn685 (talk) 19:29, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The photos are arranged to attempt to somewhat follow and illustrate the text and with respect to the connection between crew and the term crew cut and to illustrate that crew cut does not mean one specific style. When one reads the first section, the photos show a variety of crew cut styles and two of the photos, [10] and [11] visually establish a connection with the sport of crew. The other photo, [12] shows an athlete/military connection which is why it is mentioned that the harrier is a Marine Lieutenant in the caption. All Marine Lieutenants are essentially athletes and cross country runners since their fitness test scores are set at a first class level. It was not mentioned that this was UCLA Crew since that is hot the point of the photos, which is to show the connection of the name to the sport and that here is a crew team and almost every single guy is wearing a crew cut. This is not seen with the sprint football photo[13] or the Michigan baseball photo [14] despite the fact that the sprint football team is at the Naval Academy. This segues to the history section with the historical 57 year old crew photos placed directly above, and the 70 year old photo of Jack Kerouac [15], contrasted to a two year old high resolution photo of the same Marine Lieutenant's crew cut [16] in side profile illustrating the graduation of the top hair of a crew cut, which was described above. Kerouac was not named in the original caption because the emphasis was on the similarity between a crew cut circa 1943 with a crew cut circa 2011, though nearly three quarters of a century apart. The captions could be more detailed but if one tries to explain the lengths of the style in the photo, it makes it appear that the style should be cut a particular length on a certain guy to appear as in the photo, and this is misleading because the length is dependent on the shape of the skull, front hairline, slope of the skull to the front hairline, type of hair etc. Below the history section, there are three photos in white space, two historical, USNA Boathouse and USNA Sprint Football, and one contemporary [17]. The contemporary, on the right, is a crew cut that is longer at the front and on a male model and actor but similar to the crew cuts worn by #41 and #50 in the sprint football photo [18]. The sprint football photo and the USNA boathouse photo were discussed above. The sprint football photo was included to show the style on guys with hairlines like #72, #71, #30, #84. The fact that the styles are on guys with receding hairlines was not mentioned; no need, any guy with this type of hairline will notice it immediately. The Michigan baseball photo below and the Ricky Nelson photo [19] are also in white space. The Michigan photo is high resolution and illustrates crew cuts on a wide variety of face shapes, guy at the lower right has a very square face shape and is well suited with the style [20], the close sides and height at the front hairline lengthens and narrows his face shape, and to show the style on guys with protruding ears which is another undue concern of many guys, particularly younger guys, with regard to this style. Ricky Nelson illustrates a crew cut that is longer on top and on the back/sides on a thirteen year old boy; his crew cut has the longest taper on the back/sides of any included. The next three photos did expand the article vertically maybe an inch, which is significantly less than with a table. There was already about an inch of white space below the bibliography entries. The Duke/UNC basketball photo [21] as discussed above shows a crew cut on a guy with a widow peak receded hairline which is why it was included. The middle photo shows guys with crew cuts wearing everyday casual clothes [22], though 47 years ago, the classic nature of the clothing and haircut styles would blend in on any college campus today. The photo on the right [23] shows a crew cut guy wearing a coat and tie, as stated above, some guys have the idea that certain hairstyles only suit athletic uniforms or casual clothing; this is why the photo was included, not to show a photo of Roger White UCLA Football player and is why all that is mentioned in the caption is that the style is a crew cut. The final photo [24] is in white space and shows soccer star Lukas Podolski wearing a short crew cut in 2011, again the photo was included to show a short crew cut not because it is Lukas Podolski, so that was all that was mentioned in the caption. Verbosity again, should probably stop...Thanks! MiltonPB (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Wow Milton, thanks for writing such a well thought out reply! The amount of information you covered was pretty huge. I read your answers and learned a lot more than I knew about this hairstyle. Your reasoning for the different sports teams made perfect sense and I learned a lot about the history of this hairstyle. That's cool about the short brush cut, when I came across that old photo I was surprised that people had that haircut back then (not knowing anything about it). I think what you mention about widow's peak is a very good fact. Maybe someone should add something about that in there? It is interesting...thanks for spending time writing out everything (much appreciated), your text covered a lot of info! --Turn685 (talk) 12:29, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Welcome, brush cuts/short pompadours were worn even earlier. For instance, the photo of Rodin could not have been taken in 1889 since Adolphe Braun only lived to Dec 31 1877. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Adolphe_Braun I have seen the style dated to the mid 16th century and the mid 18th century. In Turgenev's "Fathers and Son's" set in Russia around 1859, Arkady's aristocratic uncle, Pavel Petrovitch Kirsanov, a military officer in his younger days and son of General Kirsanov, is essentially described as wearing his hair in this style, thirty years earlier, and of course Russian aristocracy/bourgeoisie of that age were for the most part following trends set earlier in Paris. The style became much easier to cut after the advent of AC powered electric clippers with the motor in the handle in the early 1920's. There had been earlier electric clippers but they were unwieldy as the motor was not in the clipper and the power was carried to the clipper from the outboard motor by means of a flexible shaft. The first Wahl clippers with the motor in the handle were DC powered which were problematic, an AC powered version shortly followed and these are what made this style more practical to cut. It is almost as if the short clipper styles evolved and became popular due to a change in technology and following the gradual widespread adoption of electric clippers between their invention in the 1920's and the 1950's when the styles became very common. Witness this Oster Ad of 1947 for their soon to be very widely used Progienic clipper, the clipper that cut many of the crew cuts and flat tops of the 1950's and 1960's, at least in the US. http://i.imgur.com/1dB58iT.jpg Even in barber's texts in the 1950's, the use of manual clippers is still described and there are comments regarding how some barbers prefer manual clippers. Let alone 1950's barbers texts, this is found in what was probably the most popular English language barbering text of the 1960's, published in 1967: "Some barbers still prefer the hand clipper to the electric clipper, especially on fine hair. The slow cutting action of the hand clipper allows the barber to produce a long gradual taper, thus eliminating much of he shear and comb work." However this is definitely not the case for cutting the top of a short pomp style especially the brush top short pomp or flat top crew cut. It is a challenge to keep a hand clipper cutting level while manually supplying the power through hand action. Free hand cutting the tops of these styles is not really practical with a hand clipper; the same goes for hand clipper over comb technique. Shears over comb was the method used to cut the top prior to electric clippers, photo, circa 1951. http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/b624d27d0402bc6c_large Here is another WWII era Navy induction cut photo http://i.imgur.com/LQkei9O.jpg This guy's visage is far more widely known than Kerouac's though not usually seen framed at the front hairline by the short pompadour front of a crew cut. Thanks! MiltonPB (talk) 22:14, 16 December 2013 (UTC)MiltonPB (talk) 22:23, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello Twinsday, I reverted your edits as they diminished the informational value of the article by removing all but three images of crew cuts. The explanation for the edit in the revision history is "rm random pics." The two December 13 21:37 entries above explain the non random nature of the images. Thanks! MiltonPB (talk) 22:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

That is all a huge wall of text and was WP:TLDR. I will remove some images per convention and guidelines. The article is totally and obviously overloaded with images. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:36, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Comments needed on the right amount of images

The post above is way too long for most to read.

To get input from others, I am asking for opinions on these two versions:

• A (many)
• B (few)

Please say which is closer to being appropriate. (See also: Regular haircut, where there may also be image overloading.) Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Since January 2015 there have apparently been fifteen images while there were prior to January 2014 fourteen. The pre January 2014 edition that was purportedly overloaded with images had images of crew cuts. Some of the current images are not exactly crew cuts: Curtained crew cut, Ricky Martin, Macklemore and David Beckham are all undercuts. Adam Levine is a faux hawk. Airman with a recon is by its name not a crew cut but a recon. John Cena is a butch with a slight bumper. Ben Affleck is a short forward brush. Tapered crew cut is a regular haircut short on top with a short taper on the back/sides. The lead photo might be called a crew cut by someone using the term to mean any very short guy's style but is not a prototypical crew cut and not appropriate for the lead.

The Styling section appears to be a combination of the short and semi-short taper sections of the regular haircut article with elements of the pre Jan 2015 history section of this article. Other elements of this article's history section have been split off into an etymology section.

Have edited the Styling section and edited/combined the Etymology/History sections. Added photos/descriptions of crew cuts. MiltonPB (talk) 16:05, 12 May 2016 (UTC)