Talk:Cowboy hat

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 February 2019 and 3 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jmmonty16.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:35, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Sombreros

What is the connection?

Where is the reference?

Stetson used to make Sombreros but that was many years after the cowboy hat. Is there any proof the design was somehow an inspiration for the all-weather cowboy hat?

This is being removed because Sombreros are already linked in the article.

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 04:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Some of these really minor edits need not go to talk if the edit summary explains all, which in this case, it did. (smile). Montanabw^(talk) 22:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This talk page needs refactoring/archiving

Not too sure what the idea is behind the postings on this page and its layout but I really think it needs to be refactored and/or archived. These separate "articles" and "question/answer" sections on this talk page probably should be moved off onto subpages, leaving just regular posts from editors. -- œ^™ 01:06, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to create an archive, this talk page was just being used as a sandbox of sorts when all that stuff was there. I disfavor refractoring, but archiving would be appropriate. I don't have the time to do it, so be my guest. Montanabw^(talk) 04:33, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

 Done -- œ^™ 23:24, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Montanabw^(talk) 21:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

kenny chesney and bret michaels style hats

I don't know if there a name for the styles of cowboy hats that are very popular these days (brim curved down in front and back, rolled up on the sides, and often made of straw) inspired perhaps by kenny chesney and bret michaels, but seems to me that they should be pictured or mentioned on this page. If you image search straw cowboy hat, the style is hardly all you see. (Wikipedia needs a big "pictures of hats" page to help people identify what they're looking for.) 71.190.72.157 (talk) 17:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Nah, not here. Celebrity stuff is sort of irrelevant, the beat up straw hat thing will be out of style in a couple years. And Bret Michels isn't even a country singer! Besides, even Bono wears one sometimes and he's an Irishman, for pete's sake! LOL! Not worth discussing in this article though I suppose celebrity cowboy-derived hats could go somewhere. In the real west, anyone wearing one of those things might as well stamp a great big sign on their back that says "I'm a dude! (grin). That said, while I'm not involved with WP hats, your idea of photos to lead to articles is a good one, I think. Is there a list of hats, or even a good navbox? Montanabw^(talk) 03:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Very Stetson biased

I feel that this article is almost more of a Stetson advertisement than an actual unbiased article on cowboy hats. While I am certainly not a western style hat expert I feel that this article could use some work to make it more credible. Just my two cents.

--Leupi (talk) 15:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

This is probably be because the best sourcing so far has focused on that company. I am not opposed to expansion of the article by adding information from other manufacturers. However, it IS fair to say that Stetson played a significant role in the design and development -- this to the point that when I was a kid, I remember a lot of written sources used "Stetson" and "cowboy hat" almost interchangeably, sort of like "Kleenex" for facial tissue or "Velcro" for hook-and-loop closure. Montanabw^(talk) 01:49, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Origins?

This article seems to suggest that there were no wide-brimmed hats worn in the US before Stetson began marketing his 'Boss of the Plains', or that wide-brimmed hats were unknown in the US until imported from Mexico. Wide-brimmed felt hats were, in fact, worn in the US well before the civil war. Also, both this article and the one on bowler/Derby hats contain the claim that more bowlers/Derbies were worn in the 19th century West than 'cowboy hats'. In both articles Lucius Beebe is quoted in support. Beebe was a 20th century New York writer, where did he get that information? Probably bowlers were more common than 'cowboy hats' in the 19th century West if you count the hat-wearing populations of San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, Portland and Seattle. Likely townsmen in other parts of the West wore bowlers, too, but the rural population probably tended to wear wider-brimmed hats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.212.80.149 (talk) 23:41, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Hats & the Cowboys Who Wear Them

I've removed this source and placed a citation needed tag after all the claims which referenced it. The book was clearly comedic in nature and should not be used as a source. A quick look at an amazon preview of the book is enough to prove this, and the author himself states he does not intend to back up any of the claims. Hehpillt28 (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Editing the entire Page

Howdy guys!

My goal is to edit the format, sentence structure, and organization of this page. I will not make huge/ major changes directly. I will post the edits I would like to my on my sandbox. Link is below:

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Jmmonty16

Here, you can see if you agree or disagree with me on the changes that I have made. Keep on doing your thing! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmmonty16 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

In the "Modern Design" section

Ornamentation, such as bows or buckles, are attached on the left side. Historically this had a practical purpose. Because the majority of people are right-handed, in the absence of a wide brim, bows or feathers on the right side of headwear could interfere with the use of weapons.[3]

• I won't pretend to know anything about the subject, but I was always under the impression that the reason for this, as well as the upturn in many styles, was due more to not interfering with the roping aspect more so than guns or weapons. Does this makes sense to you folks who are familiar with the subject? (I only wear them because I like them, not because I do any ranch work) — Ched (talk) 01:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

  Ched, from what I saw on the Google Books preview, the Bix Bender source is very marginal in terms of reliability. It is written quite tongue-in-cheek. I don't doubt there are plenty of facts behind it, but I would also say that this book is written for the humor and may not shy from exaggerations, etc. The text was added in this edit and claims pg. 90 of the book. The editor is not our usual "drive-by falsification" IP, so there may be something to it. Elizium23 (talk) 01:51, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

  Hey there Elizium23, thank you for such a quick reply. I can definitely see how such things could be a nuisance when shooting a rifle; so I'm not saying it's a false claim. Perhaps there was a lot more shooting than roping back in the day. :-). Anyway - thanks for the reply. It was just something that came to mind as I was reading. Cheers. — Ched (talk) 10:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

History and Origin Correction

Arizona, California, New Mexico, Texas, Colorado, Nevada, and Utah were territories that belonged to Mexico and the sombrero and cowboy style (boots and sombrero mainly) its completely traditional of Mexico. People from US, adopted this from the Mexican culture. After being exposed to the neighbour's culture being neighbour countries, a mutual cultural exchange and influence happened just naturally, and even more after these states (which kept the same Spanish names) were unwillingly sold to US. 193.116.240.198 (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Relevance of petasos

@PCC556: Please, please, please will you respond to my points? You keep removing the reference I have added. You now assert that petasos fits in with that paragraph because Mongol hats are also low crowned. You support this with a picture from Pinterest. The source I added (which you removed) says Mongol hats are conical. Whatever the truth of these assertions, squeezing that sentence in at that spot is just poor writing. If it needs to go in somewhere, that's fine. But can we please workshop a better place to put it, in a more logical way, with better flow? I tried putting it into an explanatory footnote, but you apparently don't like that. I try accommodating your concerns, but it seems you will only accept the way you originally had it. (Going by the totality of your edits, a perception might arise that you can't abide any mention of non-Western European cultural influences, or not without shoehorning in a mention of Greek or Iberian pre-emption. I find this apparent pattern concerning. However, perhaps it is only a perception.)

Please discuss it with me. I am asking you, pleading, will you please discuss the points here? I can definitely see us getting to an agreed compromise, but in every discussion I have attempted with you so far, you haven't yet responded on any article talk page, so I feel like I am taking to myself. When you respond on your user talk page, it does not seem like you much engage with the points. And then you revert my reversions, including removing new sources I have added. ... What else can I do to have a discussion with you?

I am going to copy our previous posts on this from your user page to below. I hope that you will talk with me before you revert me again. AukusRuckus (talk) 06:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:PCC556 § August 2024

 – Keeping discussion in one place

Previous discussion moved from user talk page: for information
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
August 2024 Hello, I'm AukusRuckus. I noticed that you recently made an edit to Cowboy hat in which your edit summary did not appear to describe the change you made. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Your edit summary said, "Fixed citation problem", but you also inserted this phrase "... and in the Greek petasos two millennia before that", as shown here. As a substantive change to the article, it would be better if you mentioned in the summary any addition of information like this. Especially so in this case, as the cite you fixed (thanks for that!) – to which you added your text to be referenced by – says nothing about Greeks or petasos. I have moved your new claim into a separate note (as it's in a slightly different category to cowboy hats and sombreros) and since it was unsourced, found a reference for it: Sacks (2005). (I also made other changes to the article, like ref improvements to existing sources.) Thanks, AukusRuckus (talk) 07:22, 25 August 2024 (UTC) Reinsertion of above-discussed edit Your recent Bold edit, revision 1242169409, at Cowboy hat was Reverted. Per BRD, it's time for us to Discuss this on the talk page. Please don't edit war by reinstating the edit. Let's see if a consensus can form to keep it or an alternate version. AukusRuckus (talk) 13:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC) Hi, mongolian medieval hats weren't high crowned either as shown by these preserves medieval mongolian hats: https://pin.it/5mUjXu8hu, https://pin.it/2EwjohwZx So it makes no sense to eliminate the reference to the greek petasos just because the petasos weren't high crowned 46.6.141.248 (talk) 14:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC) The petasos weren't eliminated, just moved elsewhere on the page. It reads better and is easier to understand. The classic Mongol hat was conical. Even your Pinterest pictures appear to have a moderately high crown. Please open a discussion on the article talk page, so that any interested editor can also comment on discussion. (That's what we're supposed to do on WP, and so far you have not responded to anything I've posted on any article Talk page, even where I've pinged you.) AukusRuckus (talk) 16:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC) The clasical mongol hat wasn't conical nor high crown, my pictures clearly show a low crown oval hat PCC556 (talk) 19:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC) Just compare the petasos https://pin.it/6xQ47xWYP with medieval mongol hat https://es.pinterest.com/pin/60446819970140347/ and they have about the same crown height PCC556 (talk) 19:57, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Version comparison

Original text added in 2009 First PCC556 insertion in green

The concept of a broad-brimmed hat with a high crown worn by a rider on horseback can be seen as far back as the Mongolian horsemen of the 13th century. The hat has a tall crown that provides insulation, and a wide brim that provides shade. Hot and sunny climates inspire designs with very wide brims such as the sombrero of Mexico.

The concept of a broad-brimmed hat with a high crown worn by a rider on horseback can be seen as far back as the Mongolian horsemen of the 13th century and in the Greek petasos two millennia before that. The hat has a tall crown that provides insulation, and a wide brim that provides shade. Hot and sunny climates inspire designs with very wide brims such as the sombrero of Mexico.

AR adjustment, addition moved into Notes Latest PCC556 reversion

The concept of a broad-brimmed hat with a high crown worn by a rider on horseback can be seen as far back as the Mongolian horsemen of the 13th century. The hat has a tall crown that provides insulation, and a wide brim that provides shade. Hot and sunny climates inspire designs with very wide brims such as the sombrero of Mexico.

The concept of a broad-brimmed hat worn by a rider on horseback can be seen as far back as the Mongolian horsemen of the 13th century and the Greek petasos, worn two millennia earlier, were similarly broad-brimmed The hat has a tall crown that provides insulation, and a wide brim that provides shade. Hot and sunny climates inspire designs with very wide brims such as the sombrero of Mexico.

AukusRuckus (talk) 06:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Notes

Still petasos

The source that mentions mongol hats as conical is refering to a hat with ear flaps that looks nothing like the cowboy hat and is more like a trapper hats; this is the complete phrase you're referring to "The classic Mongol hat was conical and made from felt and fur with flaps for the ears and an upturned brim at the front" so again your reasons to remove the petasos from the main page are even more nonsensical when one of your sources to claim the mongol wide brimmed hat was conical is referring to a complete different type of hat unrelated to cowboy hat PCC556 (talk) 20:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

And? Meaning ... what, exactly. I'm sorry, but I do not follow your argument ... Why does the fact that the conical Mongolian hat has fur flaps mean that that the petasos belongs in that particular paragraph?AukusRuckus (talk) 06:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I mean WTAF? I just cannot get over this reply. ... Who on earth said anything, anything at all, about any of the hats looking like ruddy cowboy hats? That has nothing whatsever to do with anything ... Blimey: I'm ... I dunno, flummoxed seems too mild. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:48, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

First, you said it belonged there because ... something (not clear). Second, when I said the paragraph is trying to make a point specifically about high-crowned, wide-brimmed hats, so please don't put petasos there: rather than incorporating your point about Ancient Greek hats in a better way into the article, you destroy my point by edit-warring it back, where you want it (even to the point of altering the original point being made by the original editor, taking out "high-crowned" as a descriptor for the other hats mentioned - thus completely invalidating the whole point the paragraph is trying to make.)

I already tried to compromise and accommodate your take on it, within the limits of clarity and sourcing. When is it your turn to do likewise? AukusRuckus (talk) 06:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

And I haven't even mentioned that I actually went to the trouble of sourcing your insertion when you first made this point - which you put into the article completely without any kind of source or reference whatsoever, and tried to do so in a way that appeared, on the surface, to be deceptive: "fixed citation problem." indeed! Did I even get a thank you for doing your work for you? I would have been justified in removing it all together, but I extended a courtesy to you, which you seem reluctant to extend to others (with all your "eliminating", etc.). Sheesh. AukusRuckus (talk) 06:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Moving on

And I repeat (from above):

Whatever the truth of these assertions, squeezing that sentence in at that spot is just poor writing. If it needs to go in somewhere, that's fine. But can we please workshop a better place to put it, in a more logical way, with better flow?

So maybe we can start there? AukusRuckus (talk) 06:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

How do you propose to include that assertion on the main text body of the page? My phrasing of that assertion was derived from the Wikipedia article of "sombrero" PCC556 (talk) 10:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe that would be something for you to propose, since my suggestions are not to your taste, and it is your wish to include it? I have, I believe, already done a lot of work that was rightly yours to do. AukusRuckus (talk) 10:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if you might try to be a little less cutting in your edit summaries, please? These are not my "demands", but the requirements of Wikipedia. Please use a more appropriate venue (my talk page, your talk page or even the article talk page) to express your disgruntlement. I will do my best to respond to your satisfaction, in any of those places. When I said above for you "to propose", I had hoped you would put your proposal for a new version here, so that we could refine it, if needed, together. Perhaps I was too curt myself; if so, I am sorry.

Be that as it may, I still offer another alternative: Since you alerted me that you had used phrasing taken from Sombrero, I have trialled, as a possible model for Cowboy hat, a different expression on that page, which I feel is an improvement on what was there. (We'll see if others agree!) See: Sombrero § Design. Would this be acceptable to you? AukusRuckus (talk) 03:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Notes

References