Talk:Coup de grâce

When I search for "mercy killing" shouldn't it direct me to euthanasia?

At the very least, shouldn't there be a disambiguation page? I somehow doubt that most people who search for "mercy killing" are hoping to find out about James Bond et al.Figureground 22:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

No, when I think of "mercy killing" I have never yet thought of euthanasia 76.180.80.95 (talk)SAB —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't understand why it does not discuss it's hunting meaning, which I would be surprised if it was not a use of the term that pre-dates the others here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.208.97.115 (talk) 10:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Title?

is the title of this article co pato mama bicho rrect? if i'm not mistaken, the diacritical in 'gras' is an acute, not a circumflex.

nothing notable encyclopedia-wise. the last sentence is so general that it doesn't actually mean anything that isn't in the defintion.

Pronunciation

Coup de grâce is properly pronounced in French as [kud ɡʁas] (2 syllables, not 3).

In English it is often mistakenly pronounced [ku də ɡɹa], which is the pronunciation of coup de gras, "blow of fat" in French. This is incorrect and is promulgated by faux intellectuals who like to think they sound superior when they leave off the final consonant sound as many French words do, but they are literally saying "blow of fat" not "blow of mercy." It is NOT the singular to say "gras" and plural to say "grace." It is ALWAYS "coup de grace" when singular or "coups de grace" when plural, and they are pronounced the self-same way.

Do not play a part in this uneducated misapprehension.

I've taken a couple of years of French and I have to ask -- why would the "coup de" contract to a single syllable whereas the other does not? Is it idiomatic or is the author just trying to throw something humorous into the mix? Answer: The French use contractions just as any language does. Nothing humorous about it. Just linguistic laziness.

This might be a mistake, I don't think he wanted to insert any humor in there.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing. I've heard native French speakers say "coup de grace" and while they blur through the "de" rather quickly and de-emphasize it, it's clearly a distinct syllable. But then again, linguists make all kinds of weird claims that run totally contrary to fact, like when they say "helpin" has the same number of morphemes (sounds) as "helping" even though to most people's ears, the former quite clearly omits the g rather than replaces it.

The claim in the article is analagous to saying "English speakers pronounce 'Would you ever...' with three syllables" on the grounds that people often slur it together so quickly that it sounds almost like "woodj'ever". It should be sourced or removed. MrVoluntarist 03:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, looks like the Hyperforeignism article confirms the true French pronunciation has three syllables. Hm. MrVoluntarist 03:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think any linguist would write of "morphemes (sounds)". Linguists would say that helpin' and helping have the same number of morphemes (meaningful units) as well as the same number of phonemes (sounds). Helpin does not lack the /g/ sound; rather, it has the /n/ sound in place of the /ŋ/ sound. The word <helpin>, when compared with <helping> does lack the letter <g> (and letters, or orthography, are shown by writing angle brackets around them, thus <g>). One can say that [ɪn] and [ɪŋ] are allomorphs (variations) of |iŋ|, which in English is used, among other things, to show progressive aspect. Interlingua ^{talk email} 02:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, see, the problem is just that everyone who hears "helpin'" versus "helping" hears the same sounds in the latter as the former, except that the latter has an additional 'g'. That's why it's hard to accept that it's a mere substitution. Btw, my parenthetical above was a simplication, not a synonym, but thanks for the nitpick. MrVoluntarist 16:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds are not letters. The sounds (phonemes) are /ɪ/ and /n/ vs. /ɪ/ and /ŋ/ in the ending, full stop. However, people may also read -ing out with /n/, or spell /ɪn/ as -ing, and historically speaking, the /ŋ/ pronunciation is a hypercorrect or spelling pronunciation: originally, -ing was just pronounced /ɪn/, and later educated speakers came to pronounce this as /ɪŋ/ to some extent, so when (especially uneducated) speakers still say /ɪn/, this may be spelled as -in' to show this clearly, although that's only the original pronunciation and no ⟨g⟩ was actually deleted. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:40, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

The French the language that brought us the most amazing word ever Fu"* I think it's deeper than lazy¡ It is as beautiful linguistically as it is culturally¡ A to the point bluntness that is voulez-vous couche and it's menage à trios or triple threat¡ 🥖🥐🍟💯🇫🇷 2600:6C47:BC00:315:84A3:2FDF:11B9:98AA (talk) 01:45, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

On the top we have The expression coup de grâce (pronounced /ku de'gra/) whereas later on The French pronunciation of the phrase is [ku də gras] (which I find correct). So sholudn't there be the [ku də gras] (or /ku de'gras/) pronounciation ot top, too (with 's' at the end)? Loirel 22:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

During John McWhorter's lectures on morphemes, I mentally rolled my eyes at how much time he spent explaining that morphemes are not letters, that spelling is somewhat arbitrary. It seems absurdly obvious to me, always had. But I can see, from the above exchange, that there really are people who don't grok it, even when it's been spelled out. Hell, you even pointed out that /n/ and /ŋ/ are separate sounds. Which even in phonetic spelling are single characters. — Kaz (talk) 18:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Mostly, in French one will typically pronounce the phrase kud ɡʁas, even in formal or pedagogocal settings. So the letter e in the word de is silent. And as for the paragraph about "hyperforeignism", that seems a bit off-topic. Most words of foreign origin can mispronounced, or - over time - can be adapted to the language in which it is used. There are thousands of examples of this in the history of the English language, it is a simple and uncontroversial fact that languages evolve, and so do loan-words. I think one editor came to think of other Frenchisms such as foie gras or perhaps mardi gras and so inserted a rather irrelevant rambling about this into the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.113.8.241 (talk) 17:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

French teacher here, native French speaker.

Both [ku də gras] or [kud gras] are possible in French. You can insist on the "de" or say it very quickly. Both are CORRECT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:1454:918A:93BC:9EC6 (talk) 15:58, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

A Wictionary Entry?

I see a link to look up the word in Wictionary, but it's not in Wictionary. Why on Earth put that in the article???

Because the link to wiktionary, along with a few other parts of the text, misspells it as coupe de grace. I'll fix it.

A Clockwork Orange

The article mentions Alex killing a large inmate while in prison, but this never happened in the film. I'm quite familar with the film but I don't recall when that line was spoken in actuality. Could someone verify which scene it was really spoken in? 66.44.154.30 04:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's in the book, not the movie. I'll take care of it. 164.107.249.200 07:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Love in the Time of Cholera

References made to in Gabriel García Márquez's novel Love in the Time of Cholera. Those suffering from cholera were shot in the back of the head to end their suffering quicker.

I removed this; the original addition was made by Fallchild369. I see from talk that there used to be something in this article about A Clockwork Orange, which is no longer here. If that's not considered relevant, neither is this. At any rate, even if it is relevant, this seems like an afterthought. Patrick O'Leary (talk) 16:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if the hunting use of the term did not predate the ones you mention

When was the term first used? When was the first use in war, and when was the first use in hunting situations?

118.208.97.115 (talk) 10:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Is it always a mercy killing?

I don't think the meaning is limited to mercy killing, but more generally to a quick, sure kill. In a real duel to the death with swords, I think of a clean, mortal strike as a coup de grâce. In fact, that may be the original usage of the term. —Finell 22:40, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

You are definitively right. In French, "donner le coup de grâce" can mean "give the single blow that may kill". It's not always linked to miséricorde/mercy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:1454:918A:93BC:9EC6 (talk) 15:59, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that is true but it needs a source.*Treker (talk) 16:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Lack of content

Article could use a lot more content. For example, historical examples in major battles and wars, written accounts by warriors/soldiers and the like. To give context to the phrase. 8.48.251.116 (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

"Mercy kill" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Mercy kill and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 12#Mercy kill until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. gnu57 01:59, 12 October 2022 (UTC)