Talk:Cossacks/Archive 3

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Cossacks and Kazakhs as free people of the Steppe

Cossacks (Ukrainian: Козаки́, Kozaky, Russian: Казаки́, Kazaki, Polish: Kozacy) are an ancient community of free people (freemen) in the Great Steppe, tracing there roots to the time of Great Horde. The ancient term "cossack" in the meaning "freeman" or "freelancer" is known from the XI-XII centuries. In XIII-XIV centuries it became very popular, many people of different language and belief used it to identify that they are free and independent people. Later the two main groups of cossacks were formed - russian-speaking cossacks of pravoslav faith and turkic-speaking cossacks of muslim faith, the first later became splited in two groups - first forming modern Ukrainian nation and second - forming subgroup of modern Russian nation, and the last - forming modern Kazakh nation (kazakh - another spelling of the word cossack in some languages of the Steppe). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hodzha (talk • contribs) 16:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Привіт, старий друже! Може годі? =) --Юе Артеміс (talk) 14:51, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Incomplete table

Hey, what about the Zaporizhian Host, Danube Host? Shouldn't they be included in the table as well? Or is the table only assigned for the Cossaks settlements of Russia? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

members of militaristic communities

Recent changes [2] supported by a source such as Britannica were reverted [3] with description "the origins of Cossacks are disputed in academia (See Holobutskyi, Nalyvaiko). No need to stress only on one theory". I haven't found Holobutskyi or Nalyvaiko theories disputing added info here in article. With the revert, sourced info was changed to an unsourced one. Please don't remove sourced info. If you have some information about disputes to add, add it properly, don't remove what is already there. --windyhead (talk) 09:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

See Holobutskyi in library, not the article (Голобуцький Володимир. Запорозьке козацтво. — К.: Вища шк., 1994.). There is no consensus about Cossack origins in academia (see ГЕНЕЗА І СТАНОВЛЕННЯ КОЗАЦТВА В УКРАЇНІ or Историография вопроса происхождения казачества), so there is no need to strees only on old "peasants' theory". The definiton of the article should not have POVs. Therefore the neutral " members of militaristic communities" is beter than biased "peasants who had fled from serfdom".--124.209.221.36 (talk) 01:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Origins

Dear Galassi, you edits in the definition of the first sentences are wrong. Let me explain why. You wrote:

Cossacks were originally members of military communities (similar to the Byzantine Akrites) in the uninhabited borderland areas in the steppe that lies North of Black Sea (in present day Ukraine and southern Russia)[1]. Their origin of these communities is unclear and is a source of considerable scholarly dispute.

• 1) How do you know that Cossacks were "originally members of military communities"? "Originally" clarifies nothing. Its better to delete this word.
• 2) similar to the Byzantine Akrites - so what? This article is about Cossacks, isnt it? Not about Byzantine. Even if Cossacks were similar to early Samurais of Japan or Mamluks of Egypt, there is no need to paste such information in the first sentence of the definition of the Cossacks' article. Your plays with similarities lead reader nowhere.
• 3)uninhabited borderland - a) You are looking at Cossacks only from the side of their neighbors. No need to say that such a view is biased. "Wild fields", which stretched from Dniester to Terek, were the "boderland" for Poland, Russia and Crimea, but not for Cossacks who lived in this "boderland". "Wild fields" were "nobody's land", rather than boderland. One hardly can say that Switzerland or Mongolia were "boderlands" only because they were badly populated and neighboring nations were unable to control them...I think the easiest way to unneutralize your biased statement is to cut off the "borderland" from the text.
• 4)the steppe that lies North of Black Sea - Cossack lived not only in the "North of Black Sea" and "steppes". There were "towns Cossacks" of Ukraine or "Cossacks of Siberia" who lived in forest regions. Don, Terek and Yaik Cossacks lived far from Black Sea. Thus you definition is unacceptable.
• 5)in present day Ukraine and southern Russia - the name "Ukraine" was already known in the times of Cossacks. In many Polish chronicles and Cossacks songs Ukraine is referred as motherland of Cossackhood. So, there is no need to write "present day Ukraine".
• 5) The idea that Their origin of these communities is unclear is explained in the following sentence "is a source of considerable scholarly dispute". No need to repeat the same statement twice. Besides, disputes have "subjects" rather then "sources". Therefore, "Their origin is a subject of scholarly dispute" is optimal.--124.209.221.65 (talk) 05:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

1.The material in the lede is expounded on later in the article, including the theories how cossacks came into being, and how they developed into more familiar branches, sourced.

2. The Dnieper Circassians, AKA Cassogs served the Alrite function for the Ruthenians. 3. What cossacks thought of themselves would be ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Wild Field stretched from Kobylyaky all the way to China, and was mostly uninhabited. 4.ORIGINALLY they lived at the edge of or in the steppe. Common and sourced info. 5.This is an encyclopedia, and it is customary to mention where things occur in relation to modern geography. The article talks about ALL cossacks, not only Ukrainian ones.Galassi (talk) 09:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Useful source - http://www.haidamaka.org.ua/0146.html Galassi (talk) 09:59, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• 1 No, my dear. The first sentence of the article should make a clear explanation of the subject in general without any useless words. The following abstracts may explain the subject in detail, but not the first sentences.
• 2.Please keep off "Cassogs theories" and other quasi-academic fables. There is no place for such hypothesis in the article, especially in the definition that should bee free of any controversial material.
• 3. a) What Cossacks thought of themselves is an "ORIGINAL RESEARCH" made by prominent scholars like Yavornytskyi, Holobutski and other. Hope you have time to read the classics and revise your understanding of "boderland". At least, the mentioning of "boderland" in the article:s definition without clarifying the historical context of this "boderland" is unacceptable. b) The Steppes had really stretched from Bulgaria to China. But the "Wild Field" was only a small "Western" part of these Steppes. You may find further information about it in in Yavornytski's book [4].
• 4.Again, ORIGINALLY. Firstly, How do you know that "they lived at the edge of or in the steppe". I:ve already gave you examples of Cossacks who lived in the forests. Do you have a reliable sources that classify Cossacks into "original" and "non-original"? Secondly, the definition of Cossacks should be general, so we can apply it to all Cossacks, not only those who were "original" one. We should write the definition in the way you:ve stated: "The article talks about ALL cossacks, not only Ukrainian ones".
• 5 Thank you for reminding me that wikipedia is an encyclopedia. If it is an encyclopedia, than it should have a general definition of the article:s subject (Cossacks) without any "originals", "Cassogs", and "chinese Wild Fields". Just shot, clear, readable definition. Dont you think so? --124.209.221.65 (talk) 10:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Thank you for "source". I know Smoliy personally and have read almost all of his books :)--124.209.221.65 (talk) 10:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

the most of the scolars posit that Cossacks has Turkic origins in addition to their Slavic backrounds.--Huckillberry (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Cossacks have been proven to be 100% Slavic genetically (yDNA and mtDNA), as well as culturally. If you wish to make drastic changes to the article, and especially the article header, you need to provide several reliable sources, and then make sure that most other editors agree on a consensus.

Personal opinions, blogs, personal websites, and occasional news articles are not considered to be reliable sources. For more information on reputable sources used in Wikipedia, check the RS guidelines.--Therexbanner (talk) 12:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Turkic people are people who speak Turkic languages, including nations as diverse as Turks, Yakuts, Kazakhs, and many more. It is not an ethnic designation.--Therexbanner (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Star Trek Reference of Cossacks

The following material has been removed twice from the article:

"Cossacks have also been mentioned in several episodes of Star Trek: The Original Series where the name of the Cossacks is often spoken by Pavel Chekov, usually with great contempt. Chekov often compares vicious or evil aliens (such as the Klingons) with the Cossacks. In the episode "The Gamesters of Triskelion", Chekov spits on the ground while cursing the word "Cossacks!" and, in "Spectre of the Gun", refers to American cowboys as "Western Cossacks"."

Concerning sourcing, the episode titles are directly mentioned in the text and it can also be found in the Star Trek Compendium. Concerning removal of trivia, the mention of Cossacks (several times) in a major science fiction series such as Star Trek more than warrants some reference in this article. Unless a more valid reason can be given for keeping this out of the article, it should be added in. I've asked for other editor inputs on the Star Trek portal since I have no plans to edit war. -OberRanks (talk) 21:04, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

As per the Star Trek Wikiproject talk page, this is a trivial mention. Notability is not inherited, just because something is mentioned in Star Trek does not automatically make it worthy of mention. It is a mild character trait, which might not make it into the character article itself.

With reference to this article, the burden rests on the editor adding, not removing, material. If you can provide a mention by cite of a reliable third party source mentioning this, then certainly we can go back and add it. We don't doubt that the mention was made, just that it may not be notable. Alastairward (talk) 13:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The Star Trek Compendium speaks on the subject, i.e. Chekov's common cursing of the Cossacks - I'll go ahead and add a formal reference to the article if that would happen. I have always wondered WHY Chekov didnt like the Cossacks. That is something the book doesnt speak upon. -OberRanks (talk) 14:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I think you've answered yourself there; "That is something the book doesnt speak upon". Indeed, the fact that Cossacks are mentioned in Star Trek isn't in doubt. What has been questioned is the notability of the mention, which isn't established. Since you are now pushing for an edit war, I suggest you seek a third opinion here. Alastairward (talk) 15:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I've said several times I have no wish for an edit war. The user above was actually fine with keeping this material in. You then asked for a reference (which I added) and you removed it again. Also, based on your very argument here, if this stays out we would have to remove the references to computer games having Cossacks in them as well as Cossacks being a school mascot. As far as this "edit war" stuff (see below), I have never edit warred or violated 3RR on this page. I've brought matters up on the talk page, discussed them with other editors, and asked for opinions. Since there is still an objection, the material can stay out (for now) until we get other editors to chime in.

Here is the reference link [5]. Cossacks are directly mentioned in the Star Trek Compendium as frequently being spoken of by Pavel Chekov as a plot device to express hatred. The Compendium states that they are referenced in at least four episodes: "Day of the Dove", "Gamsters of Trisekelion", "Spectre of the Gun", "Trouble with Tribbles". I have asked for other opinions on this matter, but the material is clearly sourced. See below for my suggestion on a "appearances in media section". -OberRanks (talk) 17:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Moved from talk page

Moved from my talk page since it has a direct bearing on the article

Both another user and I removed the reference. Instead of simply readding the material again and again, please remember that there is a burden on you to explain why you believe the material should be added. Not doing so is a sign of edit warring, even if you don't break 3RR.

If you think that you may be in the right, please seek a third opinion. If you make continued additions of this material against objections and other edits, I will report you for edit warring myself. Alastairward (talk) 16:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

What the heck are you talking about? It was brought up on the talk page, the other editor agreed to keep it in, you then asked for a reference and I added one. There was absolutely no edit warring. Lets also keep it civil on the single article talk page. -OberRanks (talk) 16:46, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

It should have stayed on your talk page because it has a direct bearing on your own editing, not just on this one particular article. The other editor didn't agree to kepe it outright, they just gave you a chance to source a cite for the inclusion of your edit. Alastairward (talk) 21:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Further Trivia Removal

The below items I feel fall in the same group as the Star Trek reference. We should not set a double standard, so until this is resolved, info is placed here. I think a "Appearances in Media and Culture" section would do the trick. -OberRanks (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Because of their long military history, Cossacks feature as prominent special military units in various strategy games, including Age of Empires III, Medieval II: Total War, Civilization III, and most notably Ukrainian GSC Game World's Cossacks: European Wars and its expansions.

Cossacks are also a popular school mascot, including the International Academy of St. Petersburg, Russia, for example

Third Opinion

Hi! I have come here off of the Third Opinion page. I have no history of involvement with this article, and frankly, had never heard of the Cossacks before coming to this page.

My understanding of the dispute is over whether cultural references to the Cossacks should be included in the article. This include references to the Cossacks made in Star Trek, Age of Empires, Civilization, among others. It is also my understanding that the accuracy of these statements is not in dispute, but only their appropriateness for being included in the article. If I am mistaken in this understanding of the dispute, please do correct me.

In evaluating content for inclusion in an article, Notability is not a requirement, as notability is only required for articles. That said, WP:IINFO states "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia". This issue is discussed at length in WP:POPCULTURE. While clear from being divisive, consensus seems to be that a secondary source needs to establish the importance of a cultural reference. While I do not have access to the Star Trek source that was cited in the article, based on the discussion above, it is my understanding that it does not attribute any particular importance to these references. Without a reliable source indicating that these references should be included, it is my opinion that they are not appropriate for the article.

That said, I do not think this is a clear case for either inclusion or exclusion. Should there be other references to these statements as being important, or if there is consensus that they are significant, then, at that time, the statements should be reinserted. Please let me know if you think this is a fair evaluation of the situation. meamemg (talk) 17:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. And the removal of all trivia like itemsis a good solution. This way it does not appear that the removals are to spite any particular editor but merely remove all trivia based data. I don't plan to put it back in the article. Thanks! -OberRanks (talk) 19:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Mind if I ask, where was the suggesiton that the removals were to spite anyone? I simply agreed to look in on the material you added, when you did a trawl for support. I notice you have been taken up for this on your talk page too. Don't complain if those who respond don't agree with you. Alastairward (talk) 21:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Nobody's complaining that I see. I'm quite happy with the resolution. The comments from the talk page have been copied above. If everyone is fine with the removal of the material, I suggest we consider the dispute closed. -OberRanks (talk) 21:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, nobody complained, but you still mentioned it, which was a bit peculiar. Alastairward (talk) 00:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

300,000 to 500,000 Cossacks killed in Civil War

This is a highly disputed allegation that is not supported by a scholarly consensus. This is confirmed by Professor Y. Futoryanksy of Orenburg State University, who points out the allegations of hundreds of thousands of millions of people killed have no documentary evidence and are "fantastic". Futoryanksy says that the White regimes themselves alleged that in 1918-19, the Bolsheviks supposedly executed 5,598 people on the Don, 3,442 in the Kuban, and 2,142 people in Stavropol. Futoryansky notes that these figures are exaggerated and that during the preceding White Terror of Krasnov's regime, between 25-40 thousand people were killed. The claim that hundreds of thousands were killed is a rather fringe, revisionist piece of history that has no place in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.230.178 (talk) 19:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

First Carlist War (1833-1840) in Spain

The Carlists from eastern and central Spain raised with sense of humour some irregular cavalry units under the name of cossacks: "Cosacos del Tajo" (Tagus Cossacks), "Cosacos del Ebro" (Ebro Cossacks), etc. Needless to say that they were cossacks in name only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:11, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

HMS Cossack

Famous British destroyer, Tribal Class. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Link to Pogroms

There should be a link to http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Kiev_Pogroms_(1919) since Cossacks were involved in them but I was not sure where to place it. Jerryfern (talk) 16:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

To the nameless one

124.209.221.138, whoever you are, you need to stop wrecking my work. It took me a long time to collect all those images, and more to post them here. I do not do that so you could then screw it all up with your nationalist bullshit. No, my friend, Cossacks are NOT Ukrainians. We are NOT Russians either. We ARE, period. We DO still exist, despite your constant moronic claims to the contrary, there are millions of people in Russia who are proud to call themselves kazaki; and many in Ukraine and Kazakhstan too. We are NOT some extinct group that were killed off after the Revolution. Suffered, yes, extinct, NO. If you want to argue on thsi with me, feel free to respond. But, at least, be man enough to show your name. I like to face my opposition. Get an account. --SergeiXXX (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree. Don't mind the IPs, just revert, no need to discuss things with someone who didn't even bother to create an account. Cossacks and their descendants easily number 7 million + , in Russia alone, that's a sourced and proven fact. In fact, Cossacks would be by far the largest ethnic group in Russia, if they were counted separately. One thing is sure, Cossacks are East Slavs. Good pictues, keep up the good work! Regards, --Therexbanner (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

clumsy-needs clarifying

"This caused them to form a stereotypical portrayal of 19th century Russian Empire abroad and her government domestically." Grammatically, this doesn't make much sense. The word "them" needs to be identified, for starters. This needs to be cited, too. 98.67.190.113 (talk) 17:13, 12 August 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

Remove anachronistic national adjective sub section headings

Words Ukrainian, Russian, etc make no sense. Various Cossak hosts served various states at various periods. And some hosts predate appearance of words like "Ukarine" by few centuries. Instead Hosts should be listed/sectioned in alphabetical or historical origin , or any other rational and valid order. For a start, just remove the subsection headings with national adjectives (in particular Ukrainian Cossacks and Russian Cossacks), without making any other changes. Zero loss. Much gain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:4000:B281:DB8D:48DB:50BF:A506:2 (talk) 20:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian Cossacks???

There is no such definition as Ukrainian or Russian or German or whatever-else Cossacks. Cossacks appeared in the Pontic steppes and later became very popular in the Russian Empire and with a some extent in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:26, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

yeah this article is being heavily influenced by the modern geopolitical issue of Ukrainian sovereignty. 82.174.102.190 (talk) 10:06, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

All Cossacks came from Ukraine and have nothing to do with Kazakh people. The national identity of Cossacks can certainly be discussed, however the fact of matter is that it was a multinational militarized society that stood for defense of the Eastern Orthodox religion. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:30, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Another important fact is that all of Cossacks Hosts spoke some version of the Ukrainian language (such as Balachka) which also points to the fact of their origin. One may reinvent a wheel all day, if he wants, however Cossacks will still be Cossacks. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:35, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Cossacks made up of different ethnicity groups. But the core is the Ukrainians. It's Ukrainian political nation. They Ukrainian Cossacks. Read about Nation. 188.163.73.30 (talk) 00:08, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

• All of these claims are just a load of Ukrainian POV. The origin of the Cossacks is not in what today is the Ukraine, but further east in Europe, and according to mainstream sources they were a Turkic people, not Ukrainians, living initially in areas that today belong to Russia and later also in areas that were then part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. And the early Cossacks did not speak Ukrainian, for the simple reason that the Ukrainian language didn't exist back then, and didn't separate from Old East Slavic until the 17th century (at the same time as Russian and Ruthenian became separate languages, up until then they all spoke Old East Slavic), while the Cossacks emerged not later than the 14th-15th centuries, and according to non-mainstream sources even as far back as the 10th century. So the claims about them being Ukrainians are about as crazy as claims I've seen about Vladimir the Great having been king of the Ukraine, a country that didn't exist until a thousand years after Vladimir's time. Thomas.W ^talk 21:56, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

"Originally the term referred to semi-independent Tatar groups (qazaq or "free men") who inhabited the "Wild Fields", or steppes, north of the Black Sea near the Dnieper River" - Kazakh people are today living in Kazakhstan and they are not the source of Cossack peoples name. Also Cossacks surely arent of Turkic origin as they have specific Slavic facial elements that are not usual for Turkic people. Please stop citing such babble like that of ignorant user Tomas. W. who apparently knows nothing of ow Slavs look like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.89.212.247 (talk) 13:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Try to remove the "Russian" section header then. It is equally anachronistic.--Lute88 (talk) 00:58, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, that's wherein any perceived problems lie. There are nationalist claims on both sides, and the association with cossacks being "Russian" is no less an exercise in nationalism. Simultaneously, trying to oversimplify who and what "cossacks" were/are, and state that their origins lie in nomadic-come-Golden Horde roots is denying a long and convoluted history. I'm sorry, but how many "cossacks" look Asiatic or Turkic to you? The idea of their being an ethnic group lies in the fact that they lived on the margins of mainstream society and had their own allegiances, not that they are of some form of Turkic or Caucasian ethnic groups. I'd love to see the DNA evidence for that. And do you think that Old East Slavic was in use in the same format in the 17th century as the 10th, 14th-15th centuries? If you compare that to the development of any vernacular language (including English), there isn't a linguist in the world who'd take you seriously. Call me crazy, but Vladimir the Great wasn't king of "Russia" either, yet we have articles in Wikipedia that would have it so. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:16, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

I explicitly wrote that the origin of the Cossacks lay further east in Europe. According to the mainstream theory the Cossacks were originally a Turkic people, that over the course of several centuries were mixed with Slavic peoples, and became what they later were. What I object to is A) the claims made here about "all Cossacks came from Ukraine" and "all Cossack hosts spoke some version of the Ukrainian language", since mainstream sources and the late evolution of a separate Ukrainian language say it isn't true (see above), and B) using that patently false claim as a justification for claiming, in the "Early history" section of this article, that all Zaporozhian Cossacks were Ukrainians (by putting them under a separate header saying "Ukrainian cossacks"), both because mainstream sources say they were primarily connected to Russia and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and because the Ukraine didn't exist at that time, making it a totally anachronistic claim. Thomas.W ^talk 12:42, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Suggested reading: Malgosci's "History of Ukraine", Part 4: The Cossack State 1648-1711. Try reading some Polish sources on the Zaporizhian Host, Ruthenians (not Russians), and how early in the piece they referred to themselves as being Ukrayintski (in effect, consciously disassociating themselves from the Poles and Muscovy-come-Russia as being part of their own ethnic identity and language). You might wonder at why a translator was needed at the Pereyaslav Agreement for the benefit of the Grand Prince of Muscovy and his entourage considering that Khmelnytsky and his entourage weren't speaking Polish for the gathering. No, not all Cossack hosts were from Ukraine, but the majority were established after the razing of Sich where those who had chosen to stick with their hosts were transported to enclaves now associated with "Russian" cossacks. You don't appear to be terribly familiar with the ethnic complexities of Decossackization, either. What you're talking about is the Russified version of cossack history: it's only an anachronistic claim according to that particular version of history. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Interesting note

The uniform of the man in the Cossack photo here http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Na_Dony.jpg is very similar to the Militia uniforms(http://www.vedomstva-uniforma.ru/mil43-58.html) from the 1943-1958 time period.

71.181.178.159 (talk) 05:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Article seems, strangely, to miss events in history with negative connotations for article subject

I came to the article to understand better certain historical events involving the Cossacks, in the 16th and 17th centuries.

Based on reading from other sources, it appears the 28 March version of this Wikipedia article may understate, even ignore, participation of Cossack units alongside Russian (and sometimes Polish) forces in religious violence against Jewish and Catholic residents of various territories, e.g., in Nemirov and Tulchin in June 1648, and much later, in the Ukraine in 1919.

The various accounts have, e.g., "Cossack troops and ...peasant bands under ...Ganzha advanc[ing] against the fortified town of Nemirov, which had 6,000 Jewish inhabitants... [[a]fter the defeat of the Poles near Korsun]", a confrontation which reportedly ended in the slaughter of the Jewish residents of Nemirov, with "those escaping immediate death undergoing frightful tortures (June 10, 1648)".

In Tulchin, two weeks later, it is reported that "600 Polish soldiers and 2,000 Jews" had taken refuge, whereupon division between the Poles and Jews resulted in the Pole's admission of Cossacks held outside the fortress. The report states that after "everything [had been take] from the Jews", they were "offered ...choice between death and baptism", whereupon "1,000 Jews who remained steadfast were tortured and executed before the eyes of the Polish nobles (June 24, 1648)."

At the same time, other instances that are given limited description may also need review (e.g., incidents in 1919).

See:

  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4685-cossacks-uprising
  http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jewish/jhistory4.php3
  http://books.google.com/books?id=gSkEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=cossack+slaughter&source=bl&ots=pOrFZs5Xzp&sig=iix41ggSj1x2DF2DBg_eXKZzHf8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t4VVUauoFuyDyAHU9YC4DA&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=cossack%20slaughter&f=false
  

The historical veracity of these references need to be crosschecked, but events in history that may be construed as negative nevertheless have to be present for the article to be an unbiased representation of the history of this important group within Russia. If the facts of the matter are contested, all sides of the matter can be summarized. In any case, the events and claims cannot simply be passed over or ignored. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.123.248 (talk) 13:04, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I should note that I am a registered editor, do not always log before writing, and propose that editorial comment should be judged at face value, and not on the basis of whether the commentator is registered or is known to us simply by IP. The latter often join the registered ranks after a period of commenting anonymously. I am aware of no Wiki policies that prohibit this (though registration is always encouraged), and so believe we should welcome all contributions of substance, without bias as to registration. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.123.248 (talk) 13:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

These are important points that you are raising. However, it could perhaps be mentioned that Don Cossacks and Russian troops participated in stopping Ukranian Cossacks (of Bogdan Kmelnitsky) from pogroms. This is a well known episode. Actions of Ukrainian Cossacks, however, should be carefully judged, since Kmelnytsky and his Cossacks fought very bitter liberation war against the Polish oppression (which had resulted in thousands of people of Orthodox faith killed and tortured). This is an extremely sad story. Someone -- who has both Cossack and Jewish blood in their veins -- perhaps Galassi, should very carefully write about this, since otherwise this might turn into a blame war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.74.255.146 (talk) 02:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Galassi did write about this in this entry http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising So the facts that you are mentioning belong in Galassi's article.

It is not clear, to whom the immediately preceding text should be ascribed. Please sign.

In re: "the facts that you are mentioning belong in Galassi's article". Please, consider again the request for a further few sentences of clarification, here in this article, regarding the questions raise in this section. Each article should be able to stand alone, in terms of its tone, and general accuracy of impression. If key facts related to the impressions created for a subject only appear elsewhere, at the very least, the reader should be directed to them. Better, they can be summarized for the reader, in the process of directing them to the in-depth source (wikipedia or otherwise). Otherwise, the stand-alone article appears to remain imbalanced. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.9.222 (talk) 21:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I edited this out: You can't cite a fictional work to make historical claims. As stated above, they're much more known for slaughtering Jews than saving them from pogroms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.22.130.245 (talk) 20:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

As of this date, this fictional vignette has apparently been re-added. I shall remove it. --Petzl (talk) 02:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Dangling sentence from Early History Section, for review.

The following sentence was removed as the last sentence to the "Early History" section, because it provides only a weak and confusing close to the section:

  "The term 'Cossacks' was also used for a type of light cavalry in the army of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth."

insofar as the sentence, as it stands, does not place the stated association into the same timeframe as the preceding information. (This Commonwealth was only firmly established in 1569, far later than most events referenced in this section.) More critically, no reference is given, making it an outlier in this otherwise generally informative section. If can be returned, but further information, and a citation need to be added. However, it is possible that this stated fact belongs elsewhere in the article (if it is important and its citation can be given).

The sentence that now ends the paragraph is also weak, but it seemed less disjointed (connecting more clearly to the preceding bullets), and so was left in place. It too, however needs to be clarified as to time and place, and given a citation. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.123.248 (talk) 13:54, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Claim or claimed Khazar origin

If a Cossack organizations is called Kazarla then this means that they still claim Khazar origin. Khazars in no way were considered inferior to Germans even in the Nazi Germany. Not only Cossacks, but Crimean Karaites, which claimed the same Khazar origin, served in SS, though the Karaites belonged to Judaism.

'Kazarla' - it is a neologism and they don't claim Khazar origin. Nazi Germany gave a shit for Asians. - Altenmann >t 02:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Altenmann, you seemed to have reverted Cossacks article to a version that Gallasi was not supporting. Actually, you reverted to a version that was pushed by a hyper-energetic "Khazar editor" from Saint-Petersburg, Russia. Too many changes of very low quality. It will take several weeks to polish the intro back to a civilized level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.74.255.146 (talk) 02:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, see for youriself. Of course, the article is a mess. The first step is to block other incoming mess. - Altenmann >t 04:18, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Here is a diff since february. There are some dubious additions to verify. 04:22, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Cossacks are not ethnic group, they are first of all - "free people by the will of God"

While talking, writing or discussing cossacks you must always keep in mind this, main and most ancient interpretation of word cossack (kozak, kazak, kazakh) - "free man by the will of God". This meaning is preserved in our region till nowadays and just from it other well-known meanings are derived: "freelancer", "man of free trade", "free warrior", "man of registered cossack status in Russian empire", "man of some or other ethnic group" and so on. Without this meaning and it's existence in worldview of people through centuries you will hardly understand people of region and their dramatic history, from ancient times connected with eternal struggle for freedom, for democracy, for human liberties and rights. Glory to God nowadays we, all people of the planet can freely say - we are cossacks, remembering all those people who saved this important worldview in steppes of Eurasia for all humanity of nowadays. Serge-kazak (talk) 07:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Many Cossacks beg to differ -- see www.kazarla.ru, www.fstanitsa.ru, and http://kazaki-narod.jimdo.com/. It is an ethnicity -- see Wikipedia's definition ethnicity, which is rather broad:

"Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category based on common culture or nationality. Ethnicity can, but does not have to, include common ancestry, appearance, cuisine, dressing style, heritage, history, language or dialect, religion, symbols, traditions, or other cultural factor. Ethnic identity is constantly reinforced through common characteristics which set the group apart from other groups." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.74.255.146 (talk) 03:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Dear Serge:

Cossack meant a slave from prisoners of war in Ossetian contrary to other languages. This, some authors argue, was the most ancient meaning. Prince Myshetsky, who served in the Sich in 1736-1740, wrote that "Cossack" was Greek misspelling of an original Cossack ethnic name. We do not know the most ancient meaning now. Dear Madam/Sir: One ethnicity does not exclude another. For example, general Karbyshev from a well-known Siberian Cossack starshyna family was a great Cossack patriot, a great Russian patriot, but a Tatar patriot and a Kryashen patriot as well. He had 4 ethnicities simultaneously thus. On another note, probably just Russian ethnicity might be a single one for Mikhail Kutuzov, as long as he joined Zaporozhian Sich Cossacks being an adult officer. Of course, he was a diplomat. Therefore we do not know. Yakiv Markovych, who coined the term "Ukrainian" in the current (more correctly, close to current) sense first, considered "Cherkasy" especially after the Malorussian Cossack regiments disbandment so that Malorussian Cossack co-servicemen could not become "soft" and "feminine" and earlier the requirement that Zaporozhian knights be transferred to family life, very offensive. See Markovych's «Записки о Малороссии, ее жителях и произведениях», Санкт-Петербург, 1798, С. 98. Though Russians explained to Cossacks that it meant a Cherkasy city origin only, Ukrainian Cossacks understood that origin was "Cherkashenin" and saw LGBT accusation in "Cherkasy". This is why Markevych asked to replace Cherkasy with Ukrainians in all documents etc. Renaming of Ukrainian Cherkasy into Ukrainians coincided with renaming of Caucasus Cherkasy into Cherkesy so that not to accuse them as well. Not a single people in either Ukraine or Caucasus and Siberia etc. has ever called itself Cherkasy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.248.109 (talk) 22:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, I did not say that being an ethnic Cossack precludes another dual (or maybe triple or quadruple) ethnic identity, as was the case of Karbyshev. The Kazarla has a view that Cossacks is a poly-ethnicity. I have a lot of respect for the Ukrainian national identity -- some Cossacks, for example Dmytro Dontsov, played an important role in creating or, at least, reinforcing Ukrainian identity (as nationality and ethnicity). I have read all great Ukrainian writers in Ukrainian, and I have much appreciation for the great Ukrainian culture and the Ukrainian identity. I think one can be both a Cossack and a Ukrainian. There are some people who think of themselves as being both Cossack and Russian (in a very wide sense of the latter word). I also did see people in Cossack forums listing their ethnicity as "Cherkass", emphasizing the link to their precise ancestry; likewise, Cossacks do use "Donetz" to mean a Don Cossack, "Uralez" an Ural Cossack, or "Khoperez" a Khoper Cossack. There is also a question of nationality (citizenship, national identity) versus ethnicity (ethnic affiliation), which are different concepts, but in Russian the word "nationality" is used to mean "ethnicity". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.170.0.166 (talk) 22:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC) Dear Madam/Sir, Dmytro Dontsov has never been a Cossack in any sense. He was of a mixed Italian-German-Muscovite origin. In Vyacheslav Lypynsky's opinion, Dontsov "became an Ukrainian to prevent the creation of Ukraine". Dontsov insisted that Ukrainians, Belarussians and and all other people for exception of Russians had been a single biological kind. Russians, including Russian Cossacks, were to be a different biological kind , not Homo Sapiens, not mankind, but waging Darwin's struggle for existence against mankind, in Dontsov's opinion. Ukrainians were to be cleared from all people of Russian descent, i. e. from the vast majority of Ukrainians, to join mankind. There are not so many people of Italian-German-Muscovite origin, like Dontsov, among Ukrainians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.239.126 (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure, where you get your information, but I must say that your edits and assertions are extremely odd. Dontsov's family comes from the old Cossack starshina. Please do not push you OWN views POV on the topic and stick to well-known, accepted facts, published in well-regarded academic sources. Also some passages you inserted (for example, about many dissertations written on Cossacks) are in a bad need of editing. I can't edit the paragraph, since I have no idea what you meant to say there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.74.255.146 (talk) 19:11, 13 April 2013 (UTC) I get information from the works of Dontsov himself. He wrote that his origin had nothing common with Ukrainian starshyna , but he was created as an Ukrainian by Gogol, Storozhenko, Kulish etc. As a spiritual Ukrainian, he had a right to invent his Ukrainian origin, in his opinion. There was a good writer Sat Ok in Poland, who invented his American Indian origin under the influence of Cooper and Main Reed. Dontsov had invented his Ukrainian starshyna origin similar to Sat-Ok and was excluded from the Ukrainian Social Democratic Party for this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.239.126 (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC) Please read Dmytro Dontsov's Донцов Д. Дух нашої давнини. Дрогобич, 1991, where Dontsov emphasizes the Nordic race origin of Ukrainians. It has nothing common with any Chercass ancestry. Please do not replace Dmytro DONTSOV's OWN views and opinions with YOUR OWN views and opinions.

I have read Dontsov, and it is clear to me that you are making this up. Read Dontsov here -- this is his self-biography. http://www.ukrstor.com/ukrstor/donzow_bio.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.74.255.146 (talk) 19:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

"Що мене "Вісті" звуть росіянином? Хай собі звуть. Це ж і Липинський писав, що я росіянин, бо "родився в краю, який росіяни звуть Новоросією"... За те Драгоман-ов, Петр-ов, Фітіль-ов, Вєтух-ов, це не росіяни. Глупість це все і злоба тих душевбогих людців... Коли Зінченко оповідає, що її батьки походять з того самого села, що мій батько, то це певно помилка. Мій батько (що вмер в 1894 р.) походив не з села, а з міста, і не з Полтавщини (як Зінченко), а з Слобідської України (укр(аїнської) частини Вороніжчини). Читаючи Д. Багалія "Історію Слобожанщини", я знайшов, що багато свого часу емігрувало звідти в нашу Таврію та що у нас було багато назвиськ, що часто стрічаються в Слобожанщині (Харківщина й укр(аїнська) Вороніжчина, Подоння). Взагалі на Україні це назвисько дуже поширено, в Московщині я його не стрічав. У Багалія ж читав я, що першим колонізатором Слобожанщини (що була й за Гетьманщини державно-московською територією) був полковник Федір Донець (з Правобережжя) та що в XVIII в. його нащадки — коли всі козаки убігалися о признання їм рос(ійського) дворянства — змінив своє назвисько на Донцов та ще й Захаржевський (це, щоб довести свою давню, ще з Польщі, шляхетність). Чи від тих Донцових походив мій батько, я не знаю, в кождім разі для мене це була вказівка, як Донці перемінилися в Донцових..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.74.255.146 (talk) 20:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Please read the self-biography of Sat-Okh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.239.126 (talk) 20:07, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I have read Sat-Okh's information, but I was not able to deduce from it anything about Dontsov's origins. You asserted that Dontsov claims to be of German-Italian origin. It would be great if you could provide the exact quotation where Dontsov says so. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.74.255.146 (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC) http://history.lsa.umich.edu/652/Readings/Iordachai.PDF Please read the article of John Paul Himka from University of Alberta, Canada. He emphasizes that Dontsov, though a fascist, has not been a Nazi. The radical Nazi Cherkass theory, according to which Cossacks were untermensche, has nothing common with Dontsov. The Cherkass theory has been recognized as extremist one by Adolf Hitler as well. The German-Italian origin of Dontsov's has been described in his letters. When he befriended with Lypynski, he wrote this to him. But he wrote about this to his family as well. Please read the names of his relatives. Dear Sat-Okhs, do not write your novels to Wikipedia. It is an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.239.126 (talk) 20:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC) http://gazeta.zn.ua/SOCIETY/lipinskiy_vs_dontsov_ukrainskiy_diptih_na_fone_epohi.html The articles explains that in spite of largely Italian origin of Dontsov the foundations of Dontsov's national Ukrainian self-conscience have been established by his German grandfather. But Dontsov insisted on the Nordic race, not on any Cherkass... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.239.126 (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC) http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/history-newspaper/_dmitrij-doncov-delil-naciyu-na-rycarej-i-svinopasov/252021 The article describes the largely Italian origin of Dontsov. He understood what Cherkass meant in Romanic languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.239.126 (talk) 21:14, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I clearly asked you a clear question, and instead you change the subject. I don't care what "Cherkasy" might mean in Romanic languages, but to all Cossacks this is an important and great name, which is born by several major regions and towns in Ukraine (Cherkasy) and Southern Russia. Moreover, Novocherkassk is the capital of Don Cossacks. --72.74.255.146 (talk) 21:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC) You had no question at all. You tried to tell that Cossack Dmytro Dontsov had discovered precise Cherkass ancestry of Cossacks. But 1)he proposed a Nordic race origin of Ukrainians instead 2) he was not a Cossack 3) his lover poetess Teliga was assassinated in Babyi Yar according to the request of just those who had discovered the precise Cherkass ancestry of Cossacks. Novocherkassk means new Cherkassk. Cherkassk, the second capital of Don Host, was founded by Cossacks of Cherkasy starosta Mikhail Vishnevetsky, probably from Monastyrsky island. But they were joined by Don Cossacks of other ancestry very soon. Razdory, the first capital, was founded by Cossacks not from Cherkasy. Ivan III asked his sister, the ruling princess of Ryazan, for death penalty to all Ryazan Cossacks, who had been moving on Don run by their own "self-stupidity" , in 1502. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.71.0.13 (talk) 21:34, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I said *none* of the above. Just what are you talking about? You are making no sense whatsoever. I don't want to have any discussions with you at all.

You are absolutely right, because the "Liberty" All-Ukrainian movement won a lot of trials in the Ukraine accusing anybody, who insisted on the precise Cherkass ancestry of Cossacks, in racial hatred and Ukrainophobia. They wanted to share their experience with human right groups in Canada and in the USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.192.101 (talk) 11:29, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not a Ukrainian, so I am not sure if I can understand your lines of thought. --72.74.255.146 (talk) 14:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The article's writing

Just came happened to stumble upon this article by chance and I am compelled to say that the writing, at least in the first few introductory paragraphs, seems rather sloppy--perhaps as if written by non-native English speakers. It should be improved.

Agree, have been working on editing today. I have known something about the community, but am learning here. I understand they have a long and complex history, but am also trying to compare the article to other articles on ethnic groups, peoples, and history. There are very lengthy commentaries in notes in the Lead, which appear to be 1) POV bordering on OR, and 2) need to be sourced. It is too much information for what is supposed to be a summary; all the arguments do not have to covered in the Lead. Later in the article, there are dismissals of unsourced material, with statements such as "false allegations" were made that Cossacks participated in pogroms. Another editor notes such allegations have been documented with facts. Such allegations need to be sourced, as well as evidence that presents another view. I understand these have been difficult issues, but the article sounds somewhat like a polemic for Cossacks. All quotes need cited sources, even if within the Notes section, and the article would be better if there were not such lengthy notes. The Lead should not be a repetition of an unresolved historical argument, especially as so much is unsourced. If a historian is known for a position that is significant for this topic, the source (with pages) needs to be cited, not just the historians' name. Am just going through this first for writing, editing, format, use of citations, etc. It's great that someone can read Russian but that doesn't help the English readers on English WP, and sources in English should also be used. Russian specialists in the West likely use those Russian sources, but also publishsought.Parkwells (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Given the lengthy discussion about the terms Cossack, Khazar, etc. in different languages, maybe there should be an "Etymology section" - this is typical of articles on peoples, providing a place to discuss what others called them, what they called themselves, what the words refer to, etc.

POV

Some editors seem to have strong POV, but not so much should be reflected here. From Talk above, for instance, it appears there is no academic consensus on the development/origins of Cossacks. That statement can be written - and then should be followed by major points of view. But this topic should not overwhelm the Lead, as it currently does in Notes. Parkwells (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Religion?

Suggest a "Religion" section, as this is a hard thread to follow, and it would likely provide another historical thread. For instance, in 20th century sections, there are references to Cossack opposition to Catholics, Orthodox and Jews, and a brief note that some (most?) they were Old Believers, but not an explanation of what that meant at the time, or how that would have affected their relations with other groups or the state.Parkwells (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Repatriation and ethnic expulsion

The huge population transfers after WWII have been getting increased attention by historians, including the expulsion of ethnic Germans from the East. Editors should look for sources that address the British acts related to repatriating Cossacks and their families. This needs to be sourced. (How did their families end up in the West? Did they flee during the war? Will read article again, but this was not clear.) It is known that Soviets treated prisoners of war as the enemy, executing so many or sending them into the gulag. Parkwells (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Cossacks preventing pogroms

The article rather prominently mentions Cossacks being used to prevent/put down pogroms, based on a short story by Sholom Aleihem. For the benefit of other editors the full text of the short story, machine translated into English, is included here. Just open the compressed block of text and you'll find it. I don't for a second doubt that Cossacks were used to perform police duties in Russia, just like other units were (and just like military units were used to perform police duties in most other countries at the time). The question is whether prevention of pogroms should be singled out or not, or just included in unspecified police work. IMHO a source that puts a bit more emphasis on the "anti-pogrom work" would be needed for singling it out. Preferrably also a source that says that Cossacks did more of that kind of work than other military units in Russia did at that time.

Sholem Aleichem's story in its entirety, machine translated into English

- I think I promised to tell you more about the miracle that happened to our " runabout ": how thanks to this " loitering " we were saved from the great disaster. If you want to listen , please go to this bench , and I 'll go to that . Here are uncomfortable talking. Would be a wedding, so there was no music Railway Stories - 09 Notes of a Salesman - I think I promised to tell you more about the miracle that happened to our " runabout ": how thanks to this " loitering " we were saved from the great disaster. If you want to listen , please go to this bench , and I 'll go to that . Here are uncomfortable talking. So once told me all the same Gaysinsky merchant, sitting with me in the car railway , trains, which in these parts called " loitering ". A. Since this time our car was only two and stood through the warm , we are sorry, took off his jacket , unbuttoned vest and settled as the father in the vineyard . At the same bench he was on the other - I am. He was , as usual , gradually , slowly said , and I listened attentively , memorizing every word , only to pass it all in his own words . - It is , that they do not recur in the time of the constitution * , when we started the so-called " most excellent favors " for the Jews. However, in our Gysin , I must tell you , we never pogroms were not afraid . Do you think why? Just because we have no one to beat Jews. However, as you know, when you come to look, and then we have there are those who do not mind a little air out us, or , quite simply, how to count the ribs. And here is the proof. When everywhere until we started to get " nice " to conduct some of our vile lords a big secret where to write : "It would be very useful to create something like that and Gysin . However, there is no one to do it here . Therefore we ask for help and for God's sake hurry to send us "people" ... And imagine , in less than twenty-four hours , as the news came , again a big secret that the "people" are . Where from? From Zhmerinka of Kazatin of the Split , Popelnia and similar places , characterized by their goons . The question is how to check on us about a secret secret ? To this we have , you see, there is a "source" , his name is Noyah - crested . Who is this man ? You are coming to our shores , therefore it is necessary for you to imagine that you knew him . Noyah - crested in length, certainly more than in width. The Lord gave him a pair of legs , and he uses them all, either by hour does not rest , it rarely ever find him at home . Thousands of cases care about it, and more and more other people . He printer . And thanks to the printing press, the only one of Gysin , he has entree to the authorities , dealing with pans , connected with government officials and knows all sorts of secrets. It is from this "source" and found out we are " nice " news. Actually, the "source" to trumpet about it all over town. Clearly, each one individually , he secretly whispered in his ear : " I ​​say this only to you, the other would not say ... " And so the whole city , from end to end , I found out that in the rush to Gysin bullies and worked out a plan mayhem . Even know when , what day and time will beat the Jews , from where and how to begin to beat the bully will go - all designed as a calendar. In the city , as you know, started doomsday . And where do you think? First of all, those who are victorious. Strange thing , if you hear , with these poor ! Well, when the rich man is afraid of such a thing , it's understandable. Unhappy afraid , as if it, God forbid , do not suddenly turned into a beggar . But you , the eternal beggars, what are you trembling ? The more you run the risk ? No, you would see how they threw all their belongings , grabbed the kids and let's hide. Well, where, for example , hide Jews ? Who's the good of the Russian people in the cellar, who is a notary public in the attic, and who is the director of the factory , each has its place . I alone who I am on there , did not want to hide. I say this not because I want to show off in front of you , I 'll show you a kind of argument that I'm not entirely wrong . First , they ask, why should we be afraid of the mayhem ? Let come what may ... Second, do not say anything , I could , and he would leave the pride and tried to hide in order to ride out a hot minute. But the question is - where to hide ? Do you understand ? In addition, as is generally to leave the city to fend for themselves ? Yes take away - it's not the focus. We have to try to do something. But they can , so to speak , the Jews do? Here are the bosses ! .. That's right, and you have the city has some influential person , who graces of the boss ? We have a Gysin is one such . His name Nahmen - scythe. He contractor . He has a round beard, velvet vest and own a house. And since he and the contractor operates in the highway , the entree to the police , drinking tea with him at the table. A police captain , imagine if we had quite a good man. Golden Man ! Why ? Not waive ruble . But taking everything through Nahmena - skew . That is, he took each . Why not take it? But after he took Nahmena willingly . As the contractor , you know? In short , people to see Nahmenom , made ​​the list , and had the money , and , as you know , decent money. How did indeed come at a time to master, and he does not gild the handle so that , as they say , fingers burned ? Clearly , sir immediately reassured us. He stated firmly that we can sleep peacefully , there will be nothing ... Well after all , is not it ? However, we have a Gysin "source" for which open secret secret . So he dissolved , Noyah - crested throughout the city hearing , in secret , of course, that of the Black Hundreds have already received a telegram , swears that he saw her, he would be seen as happiness in the world ! What is there in this dispatch ? A dispatch in just one word : " Let's go ." Nasty word! Of course, rushed to the police : " Master, and in fact the situation is bad " - " What's wrong ? " - He asks. " Dispatch received " , - answer . "Where ? " - Asks. "Out of those places ," - he said . "What is written in the dispatch ? " - " Let's go " - they reply. Police captain laughed and said, " You idiot decent . Yesterday I was called out of Tulchin hundred Cossacks ... " We have heard about the Cossacks , and immediately came to life . The Jew , on seeing the Cossack , once it becomes a brave , ready to show the world absolute value . No joke , this protection ! The matter is the one who will be used - the Cossacks of Tulchin or thugs from Zhmerinka . Clearly, the Black Hundreds expected to arrive early, because it is sent by train, and the Cossacks - on horseback. All hope for " loitering ." Maybe the great god work a miracle and " vagrant " at least for a few hours late. But this is his usual thing that happens to him almost every day. But , imagine , this time with him such a miracle has happened. As luck would have it moved from station to station exactly on the hour. Can you imagine how much it cost us blood and which rose in panic when the visit is, of course from the "source" that from the last station telegram arrived : " Let's go ." And there was not just " go ", but "cheers" ... News of this , of course , immediately attributed to the police , fell at his feet and begged not to rely on the Cossacks , who once more yavyatsya of Tulchin , and send to the police station , at least for the species - even those do not think that there is no law, no court can not and do arbitrariness . At this time, the police captain did not take long to ask to please the city, did even more than was expected of him . What is it? Of full-time and in full regalia in person at the head of the entire police force was at the station to meet the train . But those few despicable lords , for his part , also on alert . In a festively dressed up and wearing a order, they brought with them the priests and also came to meet the train . The police asked them, " What are you doing here ? " But they asked him the same question : " And what are you doing these days here ? " Word for word - and the police captain gave them to understand that their work is in vain. While he was here ispravnik , he said, in a pogrom Gysin will not. So firmly and said . Those listened to him with a grin , and then boldly said, " But we now have a look ! .. " Before they pronounce it in the distance there was a dial tone. From the tone of all of us, as you know, have one's heart in one's mouth . Following this, we expect to hear a second dial tone, and then the cries of "Hurrah." What follows in this "cheers" , we have already reported from other cities. And what happened? Soon there was a really horn, but it was a futile horn . And here's why. This can only happen with our " loitering ". Listen to this ! Rolled up to the station , the driver braked locomotive and calmly came to the platform , and there out of habit went to the buffet. Then it stopped and " Dude , where's cars ? " - " What are coaches ? " - " Can not you see that I came on the train with no cars ? " The driver opened his eyes, then said, " What do I care ? Team responsible for the cars . " - "Where is the team ? " - " How should I know ? - Re- engineer replied . - The conductor gave a whistle to know that he was ready , I told him the whistle , which is also ready, and let the machine. On the back of the head I no eyes to see what is behind . " Here is some sort driver said , and like he has a point . In short , to sense what you want - " runabout " here , and no passengers . As they say , there would be a wedding, but the music was not. As it turned out after , we went to a great company , so you know , selected parnyugi , one to one, with all the instruments of the beating - batons, rubber bands and all sorts of other accessories . They drank vodka, fun and joy in full , at the last station in Krishtopovke , as it should have laid the collar and at the same time , and gave thee drink brigade - conductors , fireman , policeman. They forgot about one little thing - attach to the engine structure . So he went into the allotted time Gysin , and all the " runabout " remained in Krishtopovke . And that wonderful ! No one - not good company , no team , no other passengers - did not notice that they are , and everyone kept tilting the bottle after bottle . Finally, the station master suddenly realized that the engine was gone, and cars are , and made ​​a fuss . Only then all came out , and went to a rugotnya that hold on. Well done tiled brigade , the brigade - stalwarts . It lasted as long as everyone finally they decided to take the legs over his shoulders , eyes and hands - let's go to Gysin . Where will they really go? So they did . Gathered up courage and walked along the tracks to Gysin . As you know, they came into the Gysin , of course, singing and , of course, with cries of " hurray " - as God himself commanded . Only they are a little bit late. In the streets already Cossacks rode on horses and armed with , ie with whips in their hands. In a matter of half an hour from the Black Hundreds and mention left. Fled like rats from hunger, melted away like snow on a sunny day. Well, now I ask you, is it not worthy of our " runabout " to put it into gold , or at least have dedicated a special story of his deeds ? End of story number 9. O N E Y

Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 18:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• I disagree with your both assertions. First, "featured prominently" and being mentioned in a footnote is definitely not the same thing, not even close. So I would firmly disagree with the deletion of a footnote based on this argument. Second, an earlier version of this Wikipedia article claimed that Sholem Aleihem wrote exactly the opposite of what is written in his story (whose machine translation you kindly provided). Somehow editors did not even bother to read the original source. I had read it long time ago, and was appalled by the assertion when I have read it (as well as by other edits by editors who evidently have not studied the subject of the article at all.) Second, it is one of the current cliches and stereotypes that Jews and Cossacks never got along. I think any examples of positive cooperation between the two ethnic groups should be mentioned in the article in order not to perpetuate the stereotypical thinking. In fact, Sholem Aleihem's story presents a completely different stereotype of a Cossack than the said stereotype. I think people wanting to learn about the topic should have the right to access a footnote that mentions what a prominent Jewish writer wrote about them. 74.104.168.24 (talk) 18:33, 6 September 2013 (UTC)