Talk:Conversion therapy/Archive 26

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Hans Eysenck

Hey DisciplinadoLector, your addition to the lead has been reverted twice now. Please note that both times we noted this is not included in the body. While it is true that behaviourism was the underpinning to some conversion therapy treatments, that is partially covered by masturbatory reconditioning. There is no need to refer to Hans specifically, who had nothing to do with conversion therapy. We don’t say “freud’s psychoanalysis”, we say “psychoanalysis”. The missing area from the lead was behaviourist therapy for gender nonconforming children, which I will add in when I have the time. Thanks for trying to improve the article but please try to read WP:LEAD to understand the reverts. Zenomonoz (talk) 04:12, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Hans Eysenck had everything to do with conversion therapy, he was a main advocate of that typeof "therapy". In 1972 gay activist Peter Tatchell protested against Eysenck in the London Medical Group (LMG) – a forum for doctors and medical students. Also Eysenck produced false science, see https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1359105318820931 DisciplinadoLector (talk) 16:20, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

You can read about gay activist Peter Tatchell's protest against Hans Eysenck's conversion therapy for example here https://www.petertatchell.net/lgbt_rights/psychiatry/dentist/ DisciplinadoLector (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that if you mention "psychoanalysis" and "hypnosis" then "behaviourism" should also be mentioned, because not all forms of psychoanalysis and not all forms of hypnosis are to be blamed for the bad practices of some. I mentioned Hans Eysenck to clarify that it was his type of behavioral therapy that was most implicated in conversion therapy, which is why gay activist Peter Tanchell protested against Eysenck in 1972. DisciplinadoLector (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@DisciplinadoLector: The WP:LEAD is supposed to be a summary of the article's body. "Psychoanalysis" and "hypnosis" are mentioned because there are subsections covering those topics in the article's body. You are adding content to the lead that is not mentioned or sourced anywhere in the article's body. This goes against Wikipedia's verifiability policy, and it is not helpful to readers who would expect anything mentioned in the lead to be explained in greater detail in the body. Bennv123 (talk) 17:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I just added that info in the article body, with references. I can expand on that subject in the body alsoif it is necessary. DisciplinadoLector (talk) 17:21, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

!! DisciplinadoLector, please gain WP:CONSENSUS first here on the talk page. I just reverted you because you incorrectly included content about Hans Eysenck/behavior therapy under 'gender identity change efforts' for transgender people, despite the source stating it was for homosexuals. In addition, as Bennv123 stated, referring to Hans Eysenck in the opening paragraph is WP:UNDUE. You are welcome to include content about behaviourism and behavior therapy under 'methods', then refer to that in the opening, but 'Hans Eysenck' doesn't need be mentioned (he can be mentioned in the body). There are/were dozens of high profile conversion therapists, many of them psychoanalysts, and we do not need to mention them in the opening paragraph. In addition, please do not use scare quotes around the word "therapy", even if it is quackery. See MOS:SCAREQUOTES. Zenomonoz (talk) 09:15, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I understand that the inclusion of Hans Eysenck in the opening paragraph and his mention in the section on efforts to change gender identity have been removed. However, I don't understand why he was removed from the section on efforts to change sexual orientation. Hans Eysenck was a campaigner for changing sexual orientation and a leading spokesman for behaviorism. In the article there are headings for psychoanalysis and hypnosis. Specific authors are also mentioned, such as where he says: "Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, viewed homosexuality as a form of arrested development. Later psychoanalysts followed Sandor Rado, who argued that homosexuality was a "phobic avoidance of heterosexuality caused by inadequate early parenting"." Therefore, I think it is not neutral to include psychoanalysis and hypnosis but not include a section on behaviorism (Hans Eysenck was not the only behaviorist to practice aversion therapy, but he was one of the most important). There should be a section on behaviorism that includes the work of Hans Eysenck and the protests that gay activist Peter Tatchell made against Eysenck in the 1970s Naming "aversion therapy" and not naming behaviorism is not neutral, because that is only one technique, while in the case of psychoanalysis the name of the entire theoretical movement is mentioned. In addition, Freud was not always consistent in his opinions on this issue, he also once said that homosexuality is not something to regret. On the other hand, I do not know of any psychoanalyst who has used aversive methods with electric shocks to change sexual orientation, as Eysenck and other behaviorists did. DisciplinadoLector (talk) 22:11, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

DisciplinadoLector when I mentioned psychoanalysts, I wasn’t insinuating that Hans was one. I mentioned them because they have been the primary purveyors of therapy. Yes I agree behaviourism is separate. The claims about Freud and arrested development are questionable, as you noted, he stated homosexuality was a part of natural variation. You asked why I reverted the edit: I did so because of the mistakes in the edit which need discussed first. The content is easily copied from the edit history for you to reinsert it. From experience, it’s best to make use of the talk page when there are disagreements. I am glad we could reach some agreement. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:50, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I am coming in late to the discussion. And this point im about to make might deserve its own subtitle.

But and I will come back to cite this later when I'm less busy. Isn't there only limited research on "who the purveryor" is? I know there is definitely only limited research on this outside of North America/Australlia, but even there I am pretty sure that is one of the things lacking in the literature. Isn't that the entire point of Higbee's studies on SOGICE that is administered by parents? EpsteinJ1994 (talk) 08:57, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Correction:

Higbee did the study on the prevalence of exposure to SOCE. https://doi.org/10.1080/00918369.2020.1840213

Ryan Et Al. 2020 https://doi.org/10.1080/00918369.2018.1538407, is the study on Parent initiated SOGICE that I was reffering to. EpsteinJ1994 (talk) 09:04, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Just remember to use secondary sources (e.g. academic literature reviews, meta-analyses, books, textbooks etc.) rather than primary sources (single studies, etc) because it's best to run on the reputable scientific consensus established in secondary sources. This means poorer quality research is evaluated and avoided. See WP:PRIMARY for further details. One way to do this is to look at the texts citing the study you are interested in using on Wikipedia. E.g. by going into Google scholar and searching the first study, I can see that a review by Judith Glassgold cites the study. The Glasgold APA review can be cited on Wikipedia, whereas the original study probably shouldn't be cited. Zenomonoz (talk) 09:30, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey you make a really good point so I just want to point out that the review by Judith Glassgold is a chapter in a book "The case against conversion “therapy”: Evidence, ethics, and alternatives." Edited by D.C. Hadelman.

Authors on this page in general should refer to this book for the best overview of Conversion Therapy and where research currently stands on it. EpsteinJ1994 (talk) 13:57, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Pseudoscience

WP:SOAPBOXING about the supposed efficacy of conversion therapy and violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. No prejudice against deleting if anyone thinks that's a better way to handle this. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:17, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Can we remove pseudoscience/scientific references? There's not a lot of long-term, scientific articles that conclusively state that HRT or gender reassignment surgery are effective long-term, but we don't call transgender surgeries or treatments "pseudoscience". Clearly a double standard on an encyclopedia that is supposed to remain neutral. Conversion therapy does work for some just like transgender surgeries work for some. Why can't we practice neutrality? 216.49.128.107 (talk) 21:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC) There are in fact quite a lot of medical sources that say HRT is effective, but that has nothing to do with this. We go by reliable sources (more specifically, medically reliable sources). If you can find such sources that say conversion therapy does work for some, we can include them. At the moment, we have a lot of high quality sources that say it is pseudo-scientific bunk that doesn't, so that's what we'll stick to. Best regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC) I think it's one of those cases where the loudest don't necessarily speak for the majority. For example, I thought I was gay when I was younger, but it was actually because of trauma associated from sexual abuse as a child. After some therapy, I found that I was actually trauma bonded and that my homosexual desires were actually a neurotic compulsion akin to epilepsy. I don't see how remaining more neutral on the topic would degrade the article. Calling it simply a practice does a lot more for allowing the user to come to their own conclusions, and encyclopedias should be written with neutrality. 216.49.128.107 (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2023 (UTC) A dubious (considering medical consensus on this) personal anecdote about how conversion therapy worked for you is not a reliable source, much less a medically reliable one. WP:NPOV means we stick to the sources, especially when the medical community overwhelmingly agrees on something (per WP:FRINGE). Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2023 (UTC) What I'm saying is calling it "pseudoscientific" is moreso to validate your own life decisions versus remaining neutral on the topic. It also promotes your outcome as the only viable one. It's why you gatekeep the article. It's fine, though. I wish you the best in your sex change. I hope it has cured your mental illness. I hope that others who may read this in the future know that change is possible without having to delve into the extremely noxious transgender ideologies. Thankfully, these people tend to reside only in online spaces and not in the real world. 216.49.128.107 (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC) Ok, I think it's clear you cannot be WP:CIVIL and this entire discussion can be closed or removed. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:11, 9 December 2023 (UTC) "After some therapy, I found that I was actually trauma bonded" or, you know, that could be entirely unrelated. Sounds similar to "after therapy, I found out I had schizophrenia as a result of a refrigerator mother" which was a popular belief in the 20th century. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2023 (UTC) Glad to know that Wikipedia is now a licensed therapist? 216.49.128.107 (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Article Evaluation

The leading paragraph of this article provides an introductory sentence that concisely and clearly describes the article's topic. The lead provides brief information on the various content that will follow in the sections below. However, the intro section contains no explicit description of which major sections the reader should expect in the article's body. The lead is not overly detailed; it provides just enough information to contextualize the article for the reader, and it only covers information which is further elaborated upon in the article's body.

The article's content is relevant to the topic and is up to date. However, the majority of space is given to theories and techniques for conversion therapy, and less focus is given to motivations, public opinion, and media coverage of the practice. Understandably, the majority of research and knowledge about conversion therapy is related to its history and techniques. I believe the article could give more attention towards the personal implications of the practice and the historical motivations behind its legality. However, this article's content does important work in shedding light on this particular issue facing the historically underrepresented LGBT population.

This article is written from a neutral point of view, with attention given towards facts and science. While conversion therapy is a complex, controversial topic, the article does not stray away from reporting on how the practice is not a legitimate form of therapy. The article bases their claims on reliable sources, such as academic peer-reviewed journals and novels. The sources are current, thorough, and written by a diverse spectrum of authors. The writing is clear and professional, and the organization of the content into sections is intuitive and easy to follow. That being said, some of the information on the legal status of conversion therapy is not as detailed as it could be, given the prevalence of the practice around the world and within certain pockets of America. Additionally, more attention could be given towards detailing the consequences and life threatening effects of the practice.

This article could use more images to enhance understanding of the topic. There are only three images, one of which is a helpful map to visualize jurisdictional bans on conversion therapy. The other two images do not do anything to provide additional enhancement of the topic or visual appeal.

There is healthy debate within the article's Talk page on understanding how psychological practices have been manipulated for the purpose of conversion therapy. Discussions center around how not to undermine the importance of some of these psychological practices while also giving attention towards how they have been abused in the service of harmful conversion practices. This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale and is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.~~~~ Efloden (talk) 03:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. I think this article is written with a bias. For example, calling it a pseudoscientific practice vs. simply a practice goes to show that the writers of this article don't allow the reader to think for themselves or draw their own conclusions. Encyclopedias are supposed to be written with neutrality. Calling it a "practice" vs. a "pseudoscientific practice" does not limit the reader's understanding of the concept.

Imagine if on the gender reassignment surgery article they called it "pseudoscientific" due to lack of long-term effects, consequences, or outcomes. It wouldn't happen because people would consider it to be a bias statement, even if it may be true.

We speak about the horrors of electroconvulsive therapy (an outdated practice) but we do not speak about the horrors of performing mastectomies on young girls? 216.49.128.107 (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

We don't call it pseudoscientific because that's our opinion, we say so because that's what reliable sources say. Please stop bringing up irrelevant tangents - if you are so convinced that gender reassignment surgery is "pseudoscientific", provide sources that say that on that article's talk page. Otherwise, you are comparing apples to oranges, though a more apt anaology would be flat-eartherism to evolution. Best regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Just goes to show your implicit bias, as does your profile. 216.49.128.107 (talk) 21:50, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Please see WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE, which discourages the sort of "neutrality" you describe, and WP:FRINGE/PS for what gets to be qualified as pseudoscience. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:33, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

GET - Ashley

I propose we merge the paragraph on Ashley's paper into the subsequent paragraph on GET. This entails removing the paragraph and just adding the paper as a citation to the 1st, 2nd, and 5th sentences of the 1st GET paragraph:

• GET presumes that patients suffering from gender dysphoria have underlying causes other than being transgender such as homophobia, social contagion, sexual trauma, and autism.
• GET is characterized by requiring in-depth talk therapy over an extended time period; practitioners often view medical transition as a last resort
• Concerns have been raised that by not providing an estimated length of time for the therapy, the delays in medical interventions may compound mental suffering in trans youth.

I'd appreciate hearing people's thoughts on this! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:59, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we can. I don't view that paragraph as about Ashley's paper but as an introduction to what GET is, with Ashley's paper as a source. I do think we may want an extra section heading there. Loki (talk) 05:08, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure how we can either, though I believe somewhat the current section misses the primary mechanism of GET as a means of conversion therapy - that is, to find a reason to deny care indefinitely, or else to delay treatment long enough that the patient stops trying, often after puberty has run its course. Snokalok (talk) 06:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Loki, Snokalok, my concern is that it's a relatively weak introduction when we have high quality sources saying explicitly GET is conversion therapy. I just boldy merged content from it into the subsequent paragraphs and noted what similarities she said existed, let me know if you think it captures it well!

Snokalok, I tried to get at to find a reason to deny care indefinitely with my edit as well, but sadly I haven't been able to find any RS that touch on or else to delay treatment long enough that the patient stops trying, often after puberty has run its course (though quite a lot of trans authors have pointed that out independently since it's fairly obvious, official RS have a lag).

I propose we remove the Ashley paragraph now her paper's better integrated and change the first sentence of the following paragraph to GET is a form of conversion therapy [1][2][3] which presumes that patients suffering from.... Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

My issue here is that we can't start with GET presumes that patients suffering from gender dysphoria have underlying causes other than being transgender such as homophobia, social contagion, sexual trauma, and autism without explaining what GET is. I agree with Snokalok that we should be clearer about the mechanism of GET, and I agree with you that we should be clearer that it is conversion therapy, but we really need an introductory paragraph there. Loki (talk) 02:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Gotcha, I see what you mean about the starting with the explanation of it's methods rather than theory behind it. What do you think about this reordering swapping the contents of the first and second sentence? GET is a form of conversion therapy characterized by requiring mandatory extended talk therapy attempting to find pathological roots for gender dysphoria while simultaneously delaying social and medical transition indefinitely. Practitioners often view medical transition as a last resort and propose their patient's dysphoria is caused by factors such as homophobia, social contagion, sexual trauma, and autism. Bioethicist Florence Ashley found...

I think that ordering (mechanism of GET -> proposed reasoning for GET -> how those narratives are just reparative therapy 2.0) flows well introducing it. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 02:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That's a lot better. I think I'd be okay with that. Loki (talk) 02:49, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@Snokalok, how's this proposal look? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Perfect. Snokalok (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

GET - UKCP statement

Per this edit, Florence Ashley is cited comparing exploratory therapy with conversion therapy. I suggest it is at the very least worth counterbalancing this with the UK Council for Psychotherapy's Statement on therapy and gender on 02/11/2023. This states in the opening paragraph:

This statement is also being made to highlight the fact that exploratory therapy must not be conflated with conversion therapy.

This cites and builds upon the interim Cass Review, which describes gender affirmation/exploratory therapy thus:

Affirmative model - A model of gender healthcare that originated in the USA which affirms a young person’s subjective gender experience while remaining open to fluidity and changes over time. This approach is used in some key child and adolescent clinics across the Western world.

Exploratory approaches - Therapeutic approaches that acknowledge the young person’s subjective gender experience, whilst also engaging in an open, curious, non-directive exploration of the meaning of a range of experiences that may connect to gender and broader self-identity.

The Cass Review is a high quality independent assessment of international evidence and best practice, and UKCP is the UK's leading professional organisation covering this area. Void if removed (talk) 13:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

On the one hand, the addition by Void if removed seems reasonable to balance the inf on ‘exploratory therapy’ in the article. On the other hand, I don’t know that the term ‘exploratory therapy’ has a fixed, agreed, meaning, and so I am inclined to think that the whole paragraph should be removed from this article. Sweet6970 (talk) 16:20, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The issue is that whether exploratory therapy is conversion therapy is a subject being litigated across multiple highly contentious pages independently at the moment based on a mixed bag of often partisan sources. Also gender exploratory therapy redirects to this page. All of this is highly POV, and not easily unpicked or balanced in separate contexts. I think this is something that has to be settled here, with high quality sources. A statement from UKCP stating that it is not is a significant intervention, and the fact that the statement cites and builds on the Cass Review carries weight. Void if removed (talk) 16:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The fact that this is in a statement explicitly defending therapists who hold gender-critical views should be taken into account when evaluating this source to determine whether the UKCP here represents a reliable medical source or a medical consensus among experts on the matter. Hist9600 (talk) 18:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that defending gender-critical views is de-facto disqualifying for being a reliable source? Void if removed (talk) 18:26, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

No, but we should look at the source more carefully and whether it reflects medical consensus, and consider the overall context of the statement. There are many efforts to institutionalize discrimination against transgender people, or block transgender healthcare, and these are regularly undertaken by governments around the world. Hist9600 (talk) 18:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The statement cites and reinforces the interim report from the Cass Review - which I quoted above - which is a top-tier independent review of the international evidence base and therapeutic best practice, commissioned by the NHS. Void if removed (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

A defense of the legal protection of gender-critical views of therapists, as published by one group in the UK, hardly qualifies as a medical reliable source for establishing gender exploratory therapy as being substantially different from conversion therapy.

The interim service specs developed as a follow-up from the Cass interim report has also been responded to by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, and characterized as being tantamount to conversion therapy, or reparative therapy.

The response from WPATH has stated that, "WPATH, ASIAPATH, EPATH, PATHA, and USPATH have major reservations about this interim service specification." The response goes on to make many criticisms including:

The document makes assumptions about transgender children and adolescents which are outdated and untrue, which then form the basis of harmful interventions.

We can also see a response about "gender exploratory therapy" specifically:

WPATH, ASIAPATH, EPATH, PATHA, and USPATH call attention to the fact that this "psychotherapeutic" approach, which was used for decades before being superseded by evidence-based gender-affirming care, has not been shown to be effective (AUSPATH, 2021; Coleman et al., 2022). Indeed, the denial of gender-affirming treatment under the guise of "exploratory therapy" has caused enormous harm to the transgender and gender diverse community and is tantamount to "conversion" or "reparative" therapy under another name.

The WPATH SOC is well-established as the international standard for transgender healthcare, and is followed by healthcare providers in many countries around the world. By contrast, the report you have cited was only prepared for NHS England, on the basis of the admitted failure of NHS England to provide adequate services. Hist9600 (talk) 00:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I'll just note as editors we should not seek to "balance" anything. We follow the sources. We are under no obligation, and in fact discouraged from, propping up minority positions "along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity." The UKCP statement is one organization's primary statement and there is no evidence it is DUE. It is certainly not a good source compared to the multiple peer-reviewed journal articles contradicting it. The CASS Review defines exploratory therapy (citing papers from 2009, 2018, and 2019, ie before the majority of scholarship on GET), but doesn't mention it anywhere else apart from to say it isn't used at GIDS and its advocates left GIDS. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

See my comments above. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

YFNS is correct that this discussion (about whether we should include UKCP's opinion on GET being different from SOGICE) is largely unrelated to our inclusion of other (higher quality and peer-reviewed) sources likening the two, as well as noting the prevalent transphobia among its practitioners and advocates. In no universe does your preference for this particular statement make the text discussed in that thread UNDUE, but if you insist on its supposed validity for that purpose, please bring it up in that thread instead of ping-ponging back and forth. It's very hard to follow. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 22:37, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I was trying to avoid the ‘ping-ponging’, which I also find inconvenient. But there is a connection between the two discussions – the difference of views is relevant to the final wording to be added to the article. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I think Hist9600 provides a very clear summary regarding the (lack of a) need for "counterbalancing" here. Most material published by the British government does not qualify as MEDRES. That a topic is contentious does not mean we should give equal weight to both or all sides. --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The Cass Review is not ‘material published by the British government’. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Don't set my steel scarecrows on fire, please :p. (thanks for correcting me anyway, though.) --Licks-rocks (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I am, genuinely quite confused as to why we’re taking one review conducted by an institution which shapes its policy on the matter predominantly based off gender critical views; in a country where most of the policy and public opinion on trans rights supports gender critical views, as the end all be all definitively correct opinion.

Should we give the same level of deference to a review commissioned by the Russian or Saudi governments on the matter? Snokalok (talk) 01:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

We are not taking one review……as the end all and be all definitively correct opinion. The problem is, on the contrary, that the Cass Review is being completely ignored, thus compromising the neutrality of this article. I do not see the relevance of your references to the Russian and Saudi governments. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I just want to further note that it's not actually a review.[4] Regarding your latest edit Snokalok, imo it's important to be explicit that GET is conversion therapy with a bundle of RS supporting it. I support the trimming, but think something like GET is a form of conversion therapy[refs] that presumes that patients... would be an improvement. Relatedly, I'm about to make a new topic on this talk page to address the paragraph on Ashley. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Spitzer study

I just undid an addition claiming that this study "found that 200 homosexual men and women reported at least some minimal change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation that lasted at least 5 years following some form of reparative therapy." A quick check of that link shows that that was not a finding of the study, but rather its sample; it's not like it checked a larger base of reparative therapy patients and found X% had lasting change. The mere existence of this set of people is not scientific proof of anything other than "reparative therapy does not 100% prevent sexual fluidity"; one could do a study of people who were in such therapy and later had car accidents, and the mere existence of such a sample does not suggest causation. What findings it does have is that even among this sample, "Reports of complete change were uncommon" -- i.e.,, the therapy was not a complete "cure" even among those who felt change in its wake. And that's all just from looking at the study's own summary. If you go to the portion of the article on Spitzer that covers this study, you'll see Spitzer himself asked that the study be retracted, that the many criticisms of it had merit, and he apologized for it.

So... bad science that didn't even say what the addition claimed. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

NatGertler, there used to be a section on the page that evaluated a bunch of studies on conversion therapy, which I had some role in creating. Including the Spitzer study. It was deleted when I was off en-Wiki for a couple of years. I should probably bring that back? Zenomonoz (talk) 00:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I would certainly look back at when it was deleted and what the justification was before doing so; in fact, since it proved controversial on at least some level, best practice would be to raise it on the talk page before adding. (I'm saying this without having checked when it went away.)

Also, of course, if it was years ago that you did it, there are likely superseding studies to consider. --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Global LGBTQ Rights and Representation

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 29 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zach arias 777 (article contribs). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laurynvaughn (talk • contribs) 01:53, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Article is biased and poorly sourced

It is said at one point that their is a consensus that such therapy doesn't work, but only one study of cases in the South is quoted. How is that proof of a consensus? 207.244.205.106 (talk) 20:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence of that source is Numerous studies have determined that conversion therapy, a practice meant to change one’s sexual orientation to heterosexual or gender identity to cisgender, can be ineffective and severely harmful. I cannot currently access the full source, but I would presume that the numerous studies in question are cited in the article's body, so an interested editor could retrieve and cite them in support of that consensus. The sources which claim otherwise are predominantly either not scientific, or (as described further in the article) subject to methodological issues. As it stands, reference 2 looks to be a reliable source for this claim. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 01:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

From "Conversion Therapy in the Southern United States: Prevalence and Experiences of the Survivors" (reference 2 in this article):

There is a scientific consensus that conversion therapy is ineffective and can result in significant, long-term psychological harm (Ending Conversion Therapy: Supporting and Affirming LGBTQ Youth, 2015). Many pro-conversion therapy studies utilize biased samples that only include clients who have recently undergone conversion therapy, thus distorting the purported success rates and failing to analyze whether conversion therapy remains effective in the long term (Shidlo & Schroeder, 2002). Further, even the most scientifically rigorous studies report success rates of no more than 30% (Haldeman, 2002).

–RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 06:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree the article is overall quite poorly sourced. I will try and improve it when I have more time. Zenomonoz (talk) 23:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)