Talk:Convent of the Capuchos (Sintra)

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Consensus to move to an English name is clear. There are issues raised about what the correct name is. If anyone still has concerns discuss on the the talk page and if there is a consensus, open a new request. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Convento dos Capuchos → Convent of the Capuchos (Sintra) – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC) Name variation is a English-variant of original Portuguese title, that should not create confusion and maintains a semblance of the English-language policy, while disambiguating from other "Capucho"-type convents that exist in Portugal (by using "Sintra" locator). Other option to directly rename to "Convent of the Friars Minor Capuchin (Sintra)", although a direct translation, would not be recognizable to English-speaking readers. Regardless, it seems counter-productive in the English Wikipedia not to have at least the most basic translation into English (i.e. convent). Ruben JC (Zeorymer) (talk) 17:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why not "..., Sintra" with a comma? —Tamfang (talk) 05:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The common use of within Wikiproject Portuguese Geography and Wikiproject Portugal is to use parenthesis to identify a location or sub-location of an object. I refer you to the Category:Churches in Portugal and Category:Parishes of Portugal, as examples. Ruben JC (Zeorymer) (talk) 10:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rename in English but not to proposed title: although I agree entirely that the title should not remain in Portuguese, the proposed title isn't standard English either. The English for "Capucho" is "Capuchin" or "Capuchin Friar", and the more specific English term for a "convent of friars" is a "friary": the more standard English name would be Capuchin Friary (Sintra), a formula which is already in use elsewhere in Wikipedia for Capuchin friaries (cf Capuchin Friary, Crest and Capuchin Friary, Rapperswil). Jsmith1000 (talk) 01:03, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. I believe a literal translation of the Portuguese title is a better way of creating association. A traveller/tourist to Sintra could more easily interpet the "Convento dos Capuchos" as the "Convent of the Capuchins", then "Capuchins Frairy". Convent (convento), monastery (mosteiro) or abbey (abade) are simpler translations then "friary". Ironically, "friary" translates as "monastery" in Portuguese. Consequently, I would probably revise my proposal to the above "Convent of the Capuchins (Sintra)", or even the earlier-dismissed "Convent of the Frairs Minor Capuchins (Sintra)". Although I would probably support the first. Ruben JC (Zeorymer) (talk) 18:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The English language isn't a pick-and-mix counter! You are throwing technical terms ("monastery", "abbey") about as if they have no particular meanings, but they do. The correct English word for a house of friars is a friary; the correct term for a house of Capuchin friars is "Capuchin Friary". That's it. "Convent" isn't wrong but it is less specific and therefore less accurate, which is why I don't support it here. It is irrelevant on the English-language Wikipedia what it is called in Portuguese if there is a natural English language name, which there is.Capuchin Friary (Sintra) is a precise, concise, natural English-language name which is consistent with articles already on Wikipedia. Jsmith1000 (talk) 18:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is the point to provide a translation into English, or to provide the formal appellation of this house? The two are not the same. "Convento" literally tanslates to Convent, Capuchos to "Capuchins", and "Convent of the Capuchins" is thus a literal translation which is sufficiently accurate and retains an easy recognizability factor. To me, this is the preferred choice. "Friary" is needlessly precise (WP:Precision). Walrasiad (talk) 18:58, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Concur. Ruben JC (Zeorymer) (talk) 20:02, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The point is to provide the name that best fits the requirements of WP:AT, which you've yet to address at all; as I indicated above (see wikilinks), "Capuchin Friary" does this better than "Convent of Capuchins". The point is NOT to invent something out of thin air or to make a literal translation just because it is more similar to the Portuguese. Jsmith1000 (talk) 13:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. And I believe "Convent of the Capuchins" adheres to that better. Certainly scores much higher on the recognizability factor, and is sufficiently clear and concise. Moreover, keep in mind this is no longer a friary, it is a tourist spot. Calling a set of ruins a "friary" can be challenged on accuracy. (And if you want to get pedantic, even during its functioning period, its name was not "Capuchin Friary", but the convent of the Holy Cross.)Walrasiad (talk) 16:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.