Talk:Conor Clune

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Volunteer Conor Clune?

I have placed the links here for a discussion on the above topic. [1] [2]. Should I just copy over these discussions? --Domer48 (talk) 11:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have left this section of the article clear of text until we decide how to address it. --Domer48 (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copied from User Talk:Scolaire:

I have a number of sources which say that he was a Volunteer, and an equal number which state the opposite. One example being the plaque in the picture over the guard room on the Clancy Article. Now my own opinion is (which means nothing at all), is that when he is described as an innocent victim, it means he was innocent in relation to the events planned for the morning of Bloody Sunday. That is, he had no involvement in any of the planning for the attacks on the British Spies. Any ideas on this?--Domer48 (talk) 19:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That was my understanding - that he was a Volunteer from Clare (?) who was in Dublin for talks of some sort, and because he was in the company of McKee and Clancy when they were arrested they took him for a leader as well. I'll have a look and see if there is anything on my bookshelf. Scolaire 07:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, the only book I can find that talks about it is The Squad, which I'm sure you've read. One interesting thing I did see though - his uncle was Patrick Clune, Archbishop of Perth, who became peripherally involved in negotiations after Bloody Sunday and discussed Ireland with Pope Benedict XV. Scolaire 07:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Came across this which seems to suggest he was a civilian, scroll down to November 21--Padraig (talk) 08:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily, only that he wasn't one of the planners. According to The Squad he was arrested in Vaughans Hotel because he wasn't registered and he hadn't a toothbrush. He had come with Peadar Clancy and then been "forgoten about". The question is, if Clancy went to Vaughans just for an IRA meeting, why would he bring a civilian? Doesn't it seem more likely that he was in Dublin on IRA, but not Bloody Sunday, business? Scolaire 08:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Squad also has Collins refering to the death of Two soldiers of Ireland, which would be strange if Clune was also a Volunteer that he didn't mention him. Its possible he was on the fringes but not a volunteer, and knew Clancy.--Padraig (talk) 08:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copied from User Talk:Domer48:

From reading the book The Squad, I get the impression that he wasn't a Volunteer, he only went along to the hotel were he was arrested with Peadar Clancy, and was waiting in another part of the Hotel whilst the meeting was ongoing, also Collins later refered to Two Soldiers of Ireland killed not three, so it would appear he was just a friend of Clancy, I will see if I can find anything else on him.--Padraig (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I have read there is debate about this, some places he is claimed as a volunteer others not. BigDunc (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He may have been on the fringes without actually being a Volunteer.--Padraig (talk) 20:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thats true I will see if I can find where I read that he was a Vol. BigDunc (talk) 20:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He wasn't, he was in the IRA and was an intelligence officer in the County Clare, he is mentioned as visiting military training in Dublin with Peadar Clancy - both he and Clancy went to observe the training.

There is also a Military Pensions and Awards file on him and his military services is recorded there, including his rank as Intelligence Officer and his commanding officer. His service was accepted by the military authorities responsible for checking such facts (and they always did a good job in collecting evidence on that). 86.28.235.52 (talk) 19:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I hear what your saying about Collins refering to two Volunteers, but remember Clune got buried in his home county, Clancy and McKee were buried together. What about what I was thinking, that he was innocent in the sence that he had no part in the planning behind the cairo gang? Now I know at the moment I can not reference it and probably won't but that would explaine the differences of opinion? --Domer48 (talk) 21:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Came across this which seems to suggest he was a civilian, scroll down to November 21.--Padraig (talk) 08:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is incorrect, the Military History Bureau files show that he was an Intelligence Officer in County Clare and there is also a Military Pensions Award file in respect of his sister who claimed a pension as his dependent, that file goes into detail about his military service and records who is commanding officer was. It is also claimed that he was in Dublin to meet Michael Collins.

The claim, made in this Wikipedia Article, that Peadar Clancy was dubious of him as he didn't know him can't be true as it is recorded in the military history bureau files that he was often in the company of Peadar Clancy and he visited a Dublin unit who were being trained in the company of Peadar Clancy. 86.28.235.52 (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Name

Here's some references to Clune in Google Books. It's late here, so I don't have time to go through them.

The NGA's Last Post does list him; although it is quite possible that the republican movement adapted him as a fallen volunteer, given the circumstances of his death. It is significant that he was not buried alongside the other two (even though Clancy was a Clareman, he was buried with the Dubliner McKee in the Republican Plot in Glasnevin), but in Clare.--Damac (talk) 23:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name used was sourced using the link provided above Google Books. If you view the source here which was found using the link provided. Now my only comment would be, do not provide a source, and then challange editors for using it.--Domer48 (talk) 15:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Next time you use a real source for an Irish name (and you are to be applauded for doing so, as this is the first time that you have), please ensure that you transcribe it correctly. The source clearly states "Mac Clúin", not "MacClune", as you claimed.[3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damac (talk • contribs) 16:54, 18 January 2008

Thanks for the links, Damac. They have the MacLysaght book[4] in my local library so I looked it up. On the name, he gives it (p. 38) as Conchobhair Mac Clúin (this can be seen on the Google Books page). He says (p. 99) that Clune himself insisted on the "Mac", and goes on to say that there are Ó Clúins, but they are in Wexford; the Clare Clunes are Mac Clúin (of course, MacLysaght is a known expert on surnames as well as being a friend of Conor Clune). According to him, the family asked him not to make a fuss when the Ó version was wrongly used on the plaque. On the Volunteer question he says: "Technically he can be so termed since he was a member of the National Volunteers before they disintegrated" (my italics). He says that Clune went to Vaughan's Hotel on the 20th to see a man called John O'Connell on a matter connected with the Gaelic League. Since MacLysaght was familiar with the local Volunteer scene (although he doesn't say that he was an intelligence officer in the IRA, and his business in Dublin was not IRA-related), I think it's safe to conclude that Clune was not a member. Scolaire (talk) 16:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Damac, I don't know what your problem is. The reference I put in for the name is not vague - it gives the page number of a book, listed in the references section, where the Irish name is to be found. Now, can you please chill out a little? Scolaire (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. I reverted the change, and also added a full bibliographic reference. MacLysaght 1978 was a big vague, as he published three books in the same year.[5]--Damac (talk) 16:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the bottom of the page: Under "notes" the author, year and page number is given. Under references the full bibliographical details are given. Since I intend to cite MacLysaght again, it does not make sense to give the whole thing each time. This, as i understand it, is how we are now encouraged to do our citations. Compare the "^{^ a b c d e f g h i} Sean O'Mahony, Death in the Castle" citation below it in the notes, and ask yourself which is the more informative.

BTW I did mis-spell the first name and reverted to it without noticing, and for that I apologise. Scolaire (talk) 17:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "^{^ a b c d e f g h i} Sean O'Mahony, Death in the Castle" is disgraceful. The editor responsible has been asked time and time again to prove accurate sources.--Damac (talk) 19:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scolaire could you post us the link that shows how we are now encouraged to do our citations. Your why seems fine, and I would definitly use it. Thanks for that. --Domer48 (talk) 20:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Citing sources#footnotes Scolaire (talk) 20:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair play, thanks for that. --Domer48 (talk) 20:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Scolaire could you possibly check this source I used above here, look at page 97, and tell me that transcribe it incorrectly. If you consider that I did in fact transcribe it correctly you might want to strick you comments above,[6] thanks. --Domer48 (talk) 22:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The comment I think you're referring to was not actually mine. I've added an "unsigned" tag now. I had already asked the editor in question to chill out; hopefully he has by now. As for the link to Google Books, I see two quotes there which I also saw in the book proper: the first (which I cited in the article) says "Conor Clune - or should I say Conchobhair Mac Clúin as he is an Irish speaker" - this is therefore his name in Irish; the second says "Conor Clune, or MacClune as he preferred to be called" - this would be an alternative English name. You seem to have mixed the two in the edit you linked to above. I hope that explains it. Scolaire (talk) 00:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that Scolaire. I think you can see were my mistake arose. On the name though, I did use the name he preferred to be called himself, and you are right of course this would be an alternative English name. Thanks, --Domer48 (talk) 08:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]