Talk:Purdue Global Law School
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Problems with Concord Law School
[edit]This section needs citations or some source to verify the text.Mysteryquest (talk) 02:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:Ku sta pos rgb 301 2755.jpg
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Reads like an ad
[edit]Added the Ad template. The article uses almost verbatim copy from their advertising website. Thirdgen (talk) 21:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- I did a substantial cleanup on it this evening. Even before I did this, I think some of the edits that had been since the advert tag were added (e.g., noting the low bar pass rate) merited removal of the advert tag. I removed it as part of my edit.TJRC (talk) 01:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Notable Alumni - DO NOT DELETE
[edit]I will be adding alumni from Concord Law School over the next couple of months. The list will be small at first and will only include a couple of names. PLEASE DO NOT DELETE the first couple that are posted. This is NOT to give recognition to one or two people that I know or post people who are not "notable." This section will be used to show people who have graduated from Concord Law School and where they are currently practicing law. Please comment my personal talk page for further discussion, but please do so prior to any deletion. THANKS! talk:morning277
FYLSE
[edit]Concord's own website uses the acronym FYLSE. http://info.concordlawschool.edu/Pages/First_Year_Law_Students_Exam.aspx. Neither FYLSE or FYLSX is used by the State Bar.--S. Rich (talk) 19:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
GAO report -- no mention of Concord or Kaplan
[edit]In looking at the full GAO report ( http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10948t.pdf available at http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-10-948T ) I see nothing about Concord Law School. Indeed, Kaplan is not mentioned!--S. Rich (talk) 21:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Pass Rate -- Improper Synthesis
[edit]Adding the repeaters to the pass rate, but that is, I'm afraid, a WP:CHERRY analysis. The State Bar stats do not tell us that 1200 different grads took the bar during 2003-2010 time frame. They tell us the exam was taken 1200 times by an unknown number of people. That is, there could be any number of repeaters from the years prior to 2003 who came on in to successfully or unsuccessfully take the bar. Since we do not have WP:V as to those people, the only clean way to report a pass rate is with the numbers for the first timers. Adding in the repeaters who eventually successfully take the bar might increase the pass rate from the 31%, but we cannot parse out those multiple repeaters. Saying there is a 28.5% pass rate including the repeaters is not an accurate way to measure the pass rate.--S. Rich (talk) 05:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. If the statistic had no discernible value, as in, reporting the number of repeaters is of absolutely no use to the average reader, then why would the California bar spend such time and effort reporting that value? Clearly, it shows that those who have to take the bar more than once have a much lower chance of passing. Therefore, I will revert the changes, and also include the bar pass rate of repeaters only. Inferences and speculation on the meaning of those values can be left to the reader, without any opinion by the editor. Since it is publicly available data that the California bar considers worthwhile, it should be included. Picking and choosing which of the statistics the California bar provides is worthwhile is itself an editorial opinion. Jamesishere (talk) 20:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
If you want to go through the numbers and count up the number of repeat takers and successful repeat takers, please do so. As Concord was established in 1998, and assuming they complete a four year program, then 2003 is a reasonable beginning point for the count. However, combining the repeaters and first timers in an attempt to give an overall or combined pass rate would be improper. For example, State Bar reports that 15 of 67 repeat takers passed the February 2011 exam (for a 22% pass rate). The Committee of Bar Examiners does not tell us how many times the 67 repeaters had taken the exam in the past -- only that they were repeaters.--S. Rich (talk) 21:59, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- To illustrate how percentage pass rates for repeaters is subject to skewing, consider two scenarios. Each scenario requires a pool of takers who have failed the bar in the past -- it could be 20, 30, 40 or whatever number. For 5 different test dates (A, B, C, D, & E) we have 4 repeat takers on each particular date. To start both scenarios, 4 repeaters come in from the pool on test date A. 1 of the 4 passes. At this point the two scenarios vary. In the first scenario, the 3 failing repeaters from date A go on to try again on test date B and 1 comes from the pool. Of the 4 takers on date B, 2 pass. On the next date -- C -- the 2 failed repeaters from B come in and 2 from the pool come in. Zero pass on date C. On date D, these 4 repeaters from C come in and test. All 4 pass. On the last date -- E -- 4 repeaters come in from the pool to test and 3 pass. Total test takers for this first scenario = 11 and total passers = 10. A pretty good percentage (91%) is the result. But in the second scenario assume that none of the failed repeaters from dates A, B, C, or D goes on to try again on a subsequent date. That is, each of the 5 test dates is filled by 4 new repeat takers from the original pool for a total of 20 takers and 20 tests. Now compare the two scenarios: assume the pass rate for each of the 5 dates is the same, e.g., 1/4 (A), 2/4 (B), 0/4 (C), 4/4 (D), and 3/4 (E). Total people who passed = 10, but the pass rate is only 50% because 20 new people came in from the original pool on each of the test dates. (In other words, the second scenario provides that only one subsequent re-testing is done for the failed first time takers.)
- The difference between the two scenarios is significant and, more importantly, difficult to describe. If we present the number of repeat takers (based on state bar stats), are we tacitly describing a "first scenario" or "second scenario" percentage? Either way, giving a raw number of repeaters and then calculating a "pass rate" is a poor way to convey information to the readers. I recommend against it.--S. Rich (talk) 01:34, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
File:Kaplan Generic Logo.gif Nominated for speedy Deletion
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External links modified
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101011011438/http://info.concordlawschool.edu/uploadedFiles/CLS_Concord_Law_School/Concord_Law_School_Documents/Catalog_2010-2011.pdf to http://info.concordlawschool.edu/uploadedFiles/CLS_Concord_Law_School/Concord_Law_School_Documents/Catalog_2010-2011.pdf
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Article has been ignored for years. Unverified data.
[edit]While there have been a few edits, this article looks like it has been ignored for years. Data about students and staff have also been ignored, except for the California Bar pass rate.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 06:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
- Logo is outdated. Is the motto up-to-date? CollegeMeltdown (talk) 06:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
- There is no History section.CollegeMeltdown (talk) 06:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
- This may be a helpful place to look for History. https://www.concordlawschool.edu/about/choose-a-law-school/ CollegeMeltdown (talk) 07:05, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
- No rankings are listed. If the school is not ranked, that's important information. Other schools put ranking prominently in their Wikipedia articles. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 06:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
- There is no source for tuition costs. CollegeMeltdown (talk) 06:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
More context on recent reversions
[edit]![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. The request was not specific enough. Please see the reply section below for additional information about this request. |
Just wanted to add some additional context and supporting links related to changes reverted on 11/7/19.
Reverting deletion of EJD program description. Source supporting this reinclusion:
Reverting insertion of “unaccredited” into short summary. This addition was connected to a Buzzfeed article citation. Accreditation status, constraints for fully online law schools, and what that means for students is already fully described in the Accreditation Status section. Previous editor also removed reference to the parent university’s regional accreditation through the Higher Learning Commission. Source here.
More context on accreditation landscape for online law schools can be found here.
The previous editor's addition of the criticisms surfaced by Buzzfeed about the Executive Juris Doctorate degree offering have not been touched by this edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewqwdqemdh (talk • contribs) 19:47, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Reply 07-NOV-2019
[edit]- Unless the COI editor notes the WP:DIFFS which were used to add this information, the edit request cannot be implemented because the verbatim text desired to be added has not been included with the edit request.
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- Please state each specific desired change and accompanying reference in the form of verbatim statements which can then be added to the article (if approved) by the reviewer.
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Regards, Spintendo 02:46, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
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Instructions for Submitters: Describe the requested changes in detail. This includes the exact proposed wording of the new material, the exact proposed location for it, and an explicit description of any wording to be removed, including removal for any substitution.
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Instructions for Submitters: If the rationale for a change is not obvious (particularly for proposed deletions), explain.
Two proposed revisions
[edit]![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. In the first request the reviewer would like to request the editor with a COI attempt to discuss with editors engaged in the subject-area first. In the second instance, WP:NOTACATALOG has been applied. |
First requested edit
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Second requested edit
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Ewqwdqemdh (talk) 20:29, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Reply 09-NOV-2019
[edit]- Thank you for providing the needed information, it is much appreciated. Based on this information, the request could not be approved; the reasons for this are described below. (Please note that the numbers correspond to each request above.)
- The requested changes do not specify that this is a regional accreditation. Including a regional accreditation under wording which might imply a national accreditation (or in this case, leaves that ambiguity for the reader to resolve on their own) would require a larger consensus to implement than that afforded by the COI edit request-review process.
- The in-depth listing of class offerings in a manner similar to a college's course catalog (including the listing of such information as how a class was designed) is not the purpose of Wikipedia, per WP:NOTACATALOG. A link to the law school's current course catalog (where information on class content and any pedagogical considerations likely exist) would be more appropriately placed in the article's External links section.
Regards, Spintendo 22:51, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding the accreditation issue, as the article states, Concord is officially categorized by the State Bar of California as a "registered unaccredited distance learning law school." (See [1]) It may be that the university as a whole is accredited, but with respect to law schools, "accredited" has a very specific meaning based on whether they meet a law-school-specific accreditation process that determines whether graduates are eligible for a law license (that is, whether they can sit for a state bar exam). A school may have American Bar Association accreditation (valid in any state, I believe) or state accreditation (valid only in the approving state; California has many such schools listed at the page I just linked). Or, in a handful of states including California, a graduate of an unaccredited law school may nevertheless take the bar exam and become admitted to practice law, if and only if the student/graduate meets certain conditions, which are discussed at the linked page and mentioned in this article under the "Accreditation status" heading -- e.g., passing the First-year Law Students' Examination/"Baby Bar". Because Concord indisputably falls into this last category, and because a law school's lack of accreditation is one of the most significant facts about it, the word "unaccredited" absolutely belongs in the lead. Perhaps the accreditation of the university could be listed as a subsidiary point under "Accreditation status," so long as it is clear that university accreditation and law school accreditation are distinct concepts. --EightYearBreak (talk) 17:03, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. The request was not specific enough. You may consider leaving your comments on the Talk page or escalating significant issues to the conflict of interest noticeboard. |
Edit request – – Related to updated state accreditation status
[edit]Please consider the following edits to this entry in light of new state-level accreditation status for Concord Law School granted 8/21/20 by the Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California. Supporting sources are included.
Requested Edit:
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Ewqwdqemdh (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Please clarify your request. It doesn't appear in https://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal_education/resources/aba_approved_law_schools/in_alphabetical_order/ Is the school ABA accredited, or just some state certification thing in CA? Thanks. Graywalls (talk) 17:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- My original suggested edit was to remove the word “unaccredited” from the first sentence, because that is no longer accurate due to Concord receiving accreditation from the Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California on August 21, 2020. Instead, I see that a new edit was made where an inaccurate and uncommon term (“ABA-unaccredited”) was introduced to describe Concord. The most complete and accurate statement of Concord’s accreditation status would be that "Concord Law School is a fully online law school based in Los Angeles and accredited by the Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California.” (See supporting references 1-5 below).
- To address your question, I have gathered some additional supporting documentation and citations both for why Concord’s California-accredited status should be included, and why the term “ABA-unaccredited” should be removed.
- Support for Replacing “Unaccredited” with “California-accredited” due to Concord Law School’s Accreditation by the State Bar of California
- The Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California is authorized by law to accredit law schools in California and oversee and regulate those law schools. (5)
- The authority to allow graduates of a law school to sit for the California bar exam and become licensed to practice law in California resides with the Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California, not the ABA. “Whether a jurisdiction requires education at an ABA-approved law school is a decision made by a jurisdiction’s highest court and its bar admission authority and not by the Council or the ABA.” (6)
- The State Bar of California permits graduates of ABA-accredited law schools, as well as California accredited and unaccredited registered law schools, to sit for its bar exam and become licensed attorneys in the state.(5, 7)
- Why Referring to Concord Law School as “ABA-unaccredited” Instead of “California-accredited” is Inaccurate and Misleading
- A fully online law school like Concord is not eligible for ABA accreditation by virtue of its online status alone, regardless of its quality or rigor The ABA Standards for Accreditation of Law Schools limit accredited law schools to offering no more than one-third of their program of legal education via distance learning. (6)
- Because it is fully online, Concord has never applied for ABA accreditation. Stating that Concord is “ABA-unaccredited” is misleading and inaccurately suggests that Concord previously had but lost ABA accreditation, or that the ABA has ever considered or made a determination regarding Concord’s accreditation status, which it has not.
- The term “ABA-unaccredited” misleadingly suggests that a California-accredited law school like Concord is of inherently lesser quality than an ABA-accredited school. However, California accredited law schools are subject to many of the same or similar regulatory requirements as ABA law schools, including those concerning honesty and integrity regarding finances and in communications with students and prospective students. (6,8) California accredited schools are also subject to inspections more frequently than ABA schools are. (5) In fact, although Concord is not eligible to apply for ABA accreditation due to its online format, in 2019, Concord was the recipient of the ABA's Brown Select Award for Access to Justice. (9)
- “ABA-unaccredited” is not a term that is used or recognized in legal education, law school accreditation, or the legal profession. The term “ABA-unaccredited” inaccurately suggests that ABA-accreditation is the only relevant accreditation status for readers. While knowing if a school is approved by the ABA may be important to some, California-accredited status could be an important characteristic for those in California or considering becoming licensed attorneys in California searching for an alternative to traditional legal education.
- Sources:
- 1. Janelle McPherson. (2020). Purdue and two other online law schools get full California accreditation. The National Jurist. Retrieved October 26, 2020, from https://www.nationaljurist.com/national-jurist-magazine/purdue-and-two-other-online-law-schools-get-full-california-accreditation
- 2. State Bar of California. (2020). “Law schools in California accredited by the State Bar's Committee of Bar Examiners”. State Bar of California Website. Retrieved October 26, 2020, from http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Law-School-Regulation/Law-Schools#cals
- 3. Weiss, Debra Cassens & Ward, Stephanie Francis ( 2020). [2] “Afternoon Briefs: 3 online law schools get state accreditation; cop immobilization maneuver can be fatal”. ABA Journal. Retrieved October 26, 2020 from https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/afternoon-briefs-3-online-law-schools-get-state-accreditation-cop-pit-maneuver-kills-dozens
- 4. Odendahl, Marilyn (August 25, 2020). [4] “Purdue’s online law school achieves California accreditation”. The Indiana Lawyer. Retrieved on October 26, 2020, from https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/purdues-online-law-school-achieves-california-accreditation
- 5. State Bar of California. (2007). Title 4- Admissions and Educational Standards Division 2.-Accredited Law School Rules. Retrieved on October 26, 2020, from http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/rules/Rules_Title4_Div2-Acc-Law-Sch.pdf
- 6. ABA. (2020) Standards and Rules of Procedure for Approval of Law Schools 2020 - 2021.Retrieved on October 26, 2020, from https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/legal_education_and_admissions_to_the_bar/standards/2020-2021/2020-21-aba-standards-and-rules-for-approval-of-law-schools.pdf
- 7. State Bar of California. (2020). “Law Schools”. Retrieved on October 26, 2020, from http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Law-School-Regulation/Law-Schools
- 8. State Bar of California, “Guidelines for Accredited Law School Rules” effective May 19, 2019, retrieved on October 26, 2020, from http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/admissions/AccreditedLawSchoolGuidelines.pdf
- 9. ABA. (2019). Louis M. Brown Awards presented at Midyear Meeting Retrieved on October 26, 2020, from https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/01/aba-access-to-justice-award/
- Ewqwdqemdh (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Spintendo: regarding above Graywalls (talk) 16:46, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
- After looking at this request, I am in favour of removing
an ABA-unaccredited
from the introduction and adding a sentence at the end of the intro about their accredited status with the California bar. The text would read as follows:- Concord Law School (formerly Concord University School of Law), is an online law school based in Los Angeles, California. It is currently known as Concord Law School at Purdue University Global and is one of several schools within Purdue University Global. Established in 1998, Concord Law School was the United States' first fully online law school. They are
currentlyaccredited with the State Bar of California.
- Concord Law School (formerly Concord University School of Law), is an online law school based in Los Angeles, California. It is currently known as Concord Law School at Purdue University Global and is one of several schools within Purdue University Global. Established in 1998, Concord Law School was the United States' first fully online law school. They are
- The "Accreditation status" seems to have already been updated, so I think we should leave it as-is. I am pinging editors who have participated in this discussion: @Ewqwdqemdh:, @Spintendo:, @Graywalls:. If no one objects in a week I will implement the proposed introduction. Thanks for considering my proposal. Z1720 (talk) 17:55, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Z1720: Thanks for reviewing the edit request. I would suggest refining the last sentence to "Concord is accredited by the State Bar of California". Saying the school is "currently accredited" is a relative time reference, see MOS:RELTIME. The introductory paragraph should include only an absolute declaration of the school's accreditation status. The existing Accreditation section already addresses the timeline of the accreditation. Ewqwdqemdh (talk) 15:40, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- You are correct; currently should not be there. I have struck it out. Z1720 (talk) 16:01, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- Since there are no objections I have implemented the suggested prose. Another user closed the ticket earlier today. Z1720 (talk) 00:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- You are correct; currently should not be there. I have struck it out. Z1720 (talk) 16:01, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Z1720: Thanks for reviewing the edit request. I would suggest refining the last sentence to "Concord is accredited by the State Bar of California". Saying the school is "currently accredited" is a relative time reference, see MOS:RELTIME. The introductory paragraph should include only an absolute declaration of the school's accreditation status. The existing Accreditation section already addresses the timeline of the accreditation. Ewqwdqemdh (talk) 15:40, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- After looking at this request, I am in favour of removing
Edit request – – Update bar exam pass rates
[edit]![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Please update the information about Concord Law School’s bar pass rates per the below request. The most recent official statistics available are based on the February 20201 bar exam.
Edit Request
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