Talk:Cléo de Mérode

Birthdate

The article says she was born 27 September 1875; however, Find a Grave has 5 May 1874. Which one is correct?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Parentage and alleged relation to Belgian Merode family

That a painter named Karl or Carl von Merode who also used the title of Freiherr existed is well-established, with many references to his works and lifespan available online; that certain sources exist that state Cleo de Merode was his daughter is also a fact. However, nowhere is a very clear outline of these matters provided, and certainly no evidence exists- save the name itself- to connect these Merodes to the Belgian family (as a number of previous- reverted- changes to the article assert); there is also no clear evidence for the existence of an Austrian branch of the Belgian family. Therefore whilst it is presumably possible for such a connection to exist, the claim cannot reasonably be made in the article proper. Ashiyura (talk) 14:46, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Frauen der Leidenschaft

I suggest inserting the English translation of the German film title "Frauen der Leidenschaft," Women of Passion, immediately following the text where it occurs. ☺ Dick Kimball (talk) 16:31, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Family background sources

There seem to be several contradictory accounts for her parentage; I don't think the sources provided at present are of sufficient quality to justify the presentation of the information that currently stands as being definite fact. The website that is the main source for her father being Theodor Christomannos states the inscription was 'anonymous' and that a book by a particular author identifies the inscription as originating with Cleo de Merode; some detail from that book would possibly be more use than what is currently in place. As for all the random user-generated genealogical websites, their use is consistently deprecated on Wikipedia so there appears no reason to endorse their use here. Numerous sources previously in place in this article identified the painter Karl or Carl von Merode as her father, now he is 'her uncle' on the say-so of one of the aforementioned user-generated genealogical websites. The source for the statement "Her parents were estranged, but her mother continued to receive financial support from de Mérode's father" says nothing about the latter point, but is the only published source currently attached to the article identifying her mother as "a Viennese baroness". Certainly much or all of the information currently included in the article on this subject could be true, but far better sources ought to be provided; as it stands there's a strong element of convenient synthesis going on to support one particular view which is not borne out by some of these sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.112.11 (talk) 20:04, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Recent addition of original research/ synthesis re: Cleo de Merode's parentage

For the benefit primarily of User:Velvet-twenties, who in their most recent edit summary claims they "worked very hard to make this page as accurate as possible" [n.b.- Wikipedia is not a personal project; it's open to editing by all] and that removal of these synthesised conclusions means that "another user who is not even registered [n.b.- all editors are equal on Wikipedia, see guidelines please before making remarks of this nature] wants to take that away from me". Histrionic and inappropriate accusations aside, the following will indicate the reasons for removal of this original research:

The first source, for her mother, doesn't say anything but "she was born in Paris in 1875, to a Viennese baroness estranged from the child's father". That was what I left in the article having edited out all the user-generated sites etc.

The URL https://www.dolomitipremiere.com/en/our-grandfather-theodor-voice-of-eternity/ makes no mention whatever of Cleo de Merode.

The URL http://www.bolzano-scomparsa.it/christomannos_e_la_ballerina.html mentions no sources, and gives no impression of itself being a reliable source. It is a journalist's personal website, designed to present the history of Bolzano, and as such represents his original research in the absence of provision of any reliable published sources based upon which he arrived at these conclusions.

The cited book "Theodor Christomannos: geniale pioniere del turismo nelle Dolomiti" by Silvano Faggioni, as it doesn't allow even "snippet view", means one can't independently corroborate the alleged relationship to Cleo de Merode.

The picture of his gravestone is merely that, and again doesn't offer any convincing evidence of a relationship between Christomannos and Cleo de Merode.

The cited "Gothaisches genealogisches Taschenbuch der freiherrlichen Häuser, Volume 24" merely shows that a woman called Vincentia, of the Merode family, had a brother Karl. Nothing conclusive identifies either of these people. Even allowing for other sources for the year of birth of the painter Carl von Merode, which might lead to a tentative conclusion that he is the same as the Karl shown here, doesn't solidly establish that his sister was Vincentia, mother of Cleo de Merode, since no other reliable sources establish that to be the identity of the mother of Cleo de Merode.

The user-generated genealogical sites are, as previously mentioned, not accepted as proof of fact on Wikipedia.

In short- this is original research/ synthesis, and is not sufficient to justify definitive statements on the matter, particularly when, as recently as last year, this article confidently stated Carl von Merode to be Cleo's father, with several sources given. 78.144.66.245 (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Addressing the concerns of Velvet-twenties as expressed in recent edit summaries

"Well if you're going to discredit Theodoe Christomannos as being her father despite Cléo leaving an inscription on his grave, at least do the bare minimum by mentioning her mother being Vincentia de Mérode, her name is literally on the same grave Cléo is buried in."

- It might very well be on the grave- provide a source please, then that piece of information can be considered to have been corroborated.

"Make an account if you're so gung-ho about this you retard. Her father was Theodor, she even left an inscription on his grave upon his death in 1911. If you look at pictures of her father when he was young, too, you can definitely see the resemblance - Cléo is very Greek looking. Also, why would a biographical book about Theodor Christomannos claim Cléo as his daughter if that wasn't true?"

- My, how ill-mannered. At any rate, it's not incumbent upon me to do so simply to appease you; at any rate you are clearly incapable of comporting yourself in a respectful and respectable manner despite being an account user, so I fail to see that you have a leg to stand on. Her appearance is a matter of opinion, which is invalid in drawing a conclusion and thus unencyclopaedic. If she left an inscription on his grave (which one of your other sources notes to have been "anonymous"- please explain this discrepancy?) A biographical book about Theodor Christomannos may well make the claim, well-founded or otherwise- you must provide a specific citation. I can't understand how you're finding this so difficult to grasp.

"Added another source since apparently it's hard to believe Vincentia is Cléo's mother despite her name being on the grave Cléo is also buried in. Karl von Merode WAS confidently stated as her father last year, but it was also stated that her name was Cléopatra and not Cléopâtre-Diane, which was, in fact, her real name. Karl was Vincentia's brother, unless you think Cléo is the product of incest."

- Give a citation for a published source making reference to this grave situation/ a clear photograph (which would be at least a start). Incest isn't a factor here, and it's hard to understand how you've arrived at that conclusion. The point is that two contrary situations have been confidently presented as representative of fact, as a consequence of which it's less than clear that this new state of affairs- poorly-sourced as it currently is, and involving much synthesis in the absence of specific citations (hint, hint)- is the correct one. 78.144.66.245 (talk) 14:54, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Also, just to make perfectly clear- if you provide a reliable source that clearly states "Cléo de Mérode was daughter of Vincentia de Mérode and Theodor Christomannos, etc etc, she left an anonymous tribute to her father on his grave, etc" I would have no problem whatsoever with accepting this to be presented as fact in this article. The fact is, at present there are only third-rate websites, user-generated genealogical sites and unclear photographs of gravestones as your justification, coupled with page number-less citations of published works given that, to be honest, give the impression you mightn't have even seen the books in question. Sorry this seems to be sticking in your craw quite as much as it is, but there you are. 78.144.66.245 (talk) 15:02, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Velvet-twenties: please refrain from making racist remarks in your edit summaries, it doesn't reflect very well upon you. https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Cl%C3%A9o_de_M%C3%A9rode&type=revision&diff=944809992&oldid=944729341 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.66.245 (talk) 12:01, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

While User:Velvet-twenties comment is in poor taste regardless of intent, please assume good faith. Vulgarity does not necessitate malice. 2600:1003:B843:EB57:8FF:ACD9:2CFD:E425 (talk) 18:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I have read the book in question (I don't have a scanner but if I did I'd happily scan the pages and use it as a source) and Theodor is in fact Cléo's father. Even if you look at photos of him as a young man the resemblance is uncanny. I'm glad that it's at least been established that Karl von Merode is NOT her father but in fact her maternal uncle. Woosh! Velvet (talk) 12:30, 25 December 2020 (UTC)