Talk:Cider/Archive 1

Definition

Cecil Adams is generally pretty good at this sort of stuff, and the tale of his trying to track down the exact meaning of "cider" in the US is entertaining if nothing else. As soon as I saw the apparently hard and fast definition here, I thought of this piece, and figured I should point it out. -- Paul Drye

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Great article you found there Paul! I had no idea that there was so much debate about such things. May I apologise for my UK centered approach when writing the article and invite others to help us solve the juice Vs cider meaning in the US? -- Ddroar

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Hmmm.. Cider is generally unfiltered, but I have had filtered cider, and I have had unfiltered apple juice. Cider tastes different, it's more intense than regular apple juice, more tangy and tart.

Fermented cider is known in the US, but is generally termed "hard cider" to distinguish it from its non-alcoholic cousin.

Logotu 21:27 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)

Arsenic in apple seeds?

"In very large quantities (in excess of 2 gallons per day) scrumpy can cause temporary blindness due to trace amounts of arsenic found in apple seeds.". I'd have thought arsenic was the least of your worries if you're drinking 2 galls of scrumpy a day!! One pint has me under the table.... GRAHAMUK 23:02, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

...hence the following sentence, one assumes... —Ashley Y 01:39, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. Apple seeds are believed to contain cyanide -- more specifically, they contain cyanogenetic glucosides -- cyanide (CN) bonded to a sugar -- produced by the plant. There's no evidence that they would contain aresnic -- a metal that has to come from the environment.

Lead arsenate was a commonly used pesticide in orchards of the early 20th century. Apples grown on old orchard land potentially could pick up this nearly permanent pollutant. More often the problem is noticed when orchard land is sold for development. Pollinator 15:39, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)

Where is applejack illegal?

The main article states that applejack is "illegal today in most countries". Is this really true. Where is it illegal, where is it legal? Unless we know that it is illegal in more than 1/2 of all countries, I would prefer to say that it is illegal in many countries.

Applejack itself isn't illegal; only the homeproduction of it. In most western countries at least, distillation of alcohol (whether by freezing or heating) is illegal. The most obvious exception is New Zealand (apparently because they all but privatised their tax collection). PS: Please date & sign your comments on these pages. You can do this by typing four tildes. 202.147.117.39 10:20, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I reorganized the applejack section a bit, specifying that home production of applejack is illegal in most countries, and emphasizing the creation of applejack over the illegality of the beverage.Nereocystis 22:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rearranged

Since non-alcoholic cider seems to be only known in one country I have swapped the order of the sections to put the alcoholic version first. I have also expanded "UK and Europe" to "the Commonwealth and Europe". I can't speak for other parts of the world, but I know New Zealand and Australia have alcoholic cider. The article says that Canada also has alcoholic cider, so "Commonwealth" isn't a bad generalisation. Ben Arnold 10:31, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Canada

I expect it depends on which part of Canada. A Canadian on the Straight Dope forum said he would understand cider to mean the non-alcohol kind. --Logotu 14:55, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rearrangement and clean-up required

Why is "real cider" a category of countries? Also the list of ciders brands, is it relevant? I haven't seen any of those? Surely they are UK, or US specific, and therefore should be moved the the relevant countries?

"Real Cider" is a subcategory of the UK because it's a CAMRA official definition, and CAMRA is only applicable to the UK (although they do have ties with a sister organization which supports European craft brewing; no such parallel organization officially exists in the US, although [1] fits the bill a bit) --Stlemur 13:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Relationship between "hard cider" and "fermented cider" ?

The lead sentence in the article currently reads:

Cider (also spelled: cyder) refers to a beverage containing the juice of apples. In Europe amd Oceania, the term refers to fermented apple juice, but in North America cider is normally unfermented, but when fermented it is known as "hard cider".

I think this sentence is misleading. I believe misrepresentation it starts is repeated throughout the article. And what I regard as misrepresentation has spread to other article.

I'd like to suggest an alternate wording. What seems wrong to me about this wording is that it doesn't recognize that cider is a traditional beverage that precedes the discovery of preservation by pasteurization and refrigeration by millenia. In the millenia preceding modern preservation techniques the only way to preserve cider was fermentation.

The alternate wording I would suggest is:

Cider (also spelled: cyder) refers to a traditional beverage made by pressing the juice from apples. Cider that has been allowed to ferment is sometimes referred to as "hard cider".

The article fails to recognize that, prior to the discovery of pasteurization, the only way to preserve freshly pressed cider was to allow it to ferment -- or to drink it within a couple of days.

The above text comes from Geo Swan, who neglected to sign his/her posting. It is apparently motivated by a concern that "hard cider" is not a retronym, as it is currently listed in that article. I added that entry because it seemed appropriate based on the material in this article. I would appreciate it if folks who know about the history of cider, including the use of the word "cider" and related terms like "hard cider", could consider GeoSwan's point and make any revisions they deem warranted. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I think Geo Swan's text is still a little confusing as it implies that apple juice is already termed "cider" before it is fermented - which is not the case as defined in most countries. User:EasyTiger 00:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Magners

I added a link to Bulmers Original Irish Cider for Magners as they are one and the same thing (it was renamed in the UK due to their already being a Bulmers Cider). Hope you don't mind.

Martinelli's

Would it be appropriate to put Martinelli's as a cider brand? It is mostly known for sparkling cider, but it also make non-carbonated ones too. Bibliomaniac15 01:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge Cider and Apple juice

As described in the article and the comments on this talkpage, in the UK (and apparently in most of the rest of the world) apple juice and cider are very different things (non-alcoholic vs. alcoholic). The comments above seem to suggest that only Americans and maybe some Canadians view cider to be a non-alcoholic drink. Hence I don't think it's appropriate to merge the two, as someone has proposed. Here are some alternatives that I think might work:

1. The article 'Cider' could be about the alcoholic beverage, with a comment at the top along the lines of "This article is about the alcoholic beverage 'Cider', also know as 'Hard Cider'. For information about the non-alcoholic beverage, see Apple juice."
2. As above but "...For information about the non-alcoholic beverage, see Cider (non-alcoholic)."
3. 'Cider' becomes a disambiguation page, refering people to Cider (alcoholic) and Cider (non-alcoholic).

The Apple juice article is currently quite US-oriented. It could do with a cleanup that reflects the subtle differences in the use of the term. Jamse 16:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've gone ahead and 'internationalised' the outlook of the Apple juice page - hopefully it now reflects the use of the term equally well for american and non-american usages.

I think the Cider article sould be about alcoholic cider, non-alcoholic 'cider' should be in Apple juice. LDHan 16:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

If that's to be the case, then the article should state at the top that this is the case, and direct North American users to the correct page. I've your ammendment so the article reflects both position, until the decision is agreed upon here. (For what it's worth, I'm from the UK, so cider refering to plain-ol' apple juice seems odd to me too, but this is an international encyclopaedia, so we can't just change it if that means it won't make sense to the entire population of North America) Jamse 10:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm also from the UK, the idea that cider is fresh apple juice is also weird to me, but you're right, different meanings of the word needs to be made clear. LDHan 15:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but merging is definitely a bad idea. 62.31.55.223 12:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully the big rearranging I just did between the two articles solves all of this. violet/riga (t) 12:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm also against merging the articles, especially with violet's rearranging - good call! John Smith's 17:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Good editing! LDHan 13:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Is ukcider notable?

Regarding a recent addition, the subsection on Real cider: Does UKCider meet notability standards? It seems to be a small community (a few hundred people) and the person who added the text is the head of that group. --Stlemur 00:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

ukcider is certainly notable within the context of Real Cider, which is a niche product the organisation champions alongside of Real Perry. It is not just a consumer organisation, but exists as an authoritative community of practice for craft cidermakers in the UK and worldwide. There are not so many remaining traditional cidermakers so a few hundred easily represents the large part of the industry. The membership may not be in the thousands like CAMRA, but then they are a beer drinkers group which is reflected in their insistance on having yeast present in cider, which is equivalent to wanting a layer of dead sediment served with wine, a drink with which cider has far more in common technically, than ale. The ukcider definition of real cider is therefore a necessary inclusion in the Real cider section, in order to redress the imbalanced view which may be perceived from reading only the real ale afficionados less well informed version, in the current one-sided version of the page. --Aroberts 18:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

In the sake of disclosure, Aroberts is the head of the ukcider group. I'd like there to be input from outside that group to establish notability...most of the links I'm finding on Google are the group's own pages. --Stlemur 23:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

If Google is to be the metric then try searching simply for "cider". What's the very first link?

For the sake of disclosure it should be noted that Stlemur is a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Beer --Aroberts 19:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

For that matter, what is CAMRA? It shows up earlier, in the Wales subsection, but nowhere did I find anything saying what CAMRA is. The Literate Engineer 14:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a link. I've moved the real cider section back to the UK since it's UK specific. It might in the fullness of time make sense to have a standards section, though, but the varying standards IMO would probably be easier to follow if defined under their respective countries. Man vyi 14:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to merge from Cider Festival

I propose that Cider festival be merged into this article. The article as written is a very short stub and I don't see it expanding farther than a one- or two-paragraph description and maybe a list of events. --Stlemur 14:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There's not much there to merge, is there. So this is really a proposal to delete an unhelpful stub page, which seems reasonable. --Aroberts 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

R. A. Fletcher book

What's the relevance of Richard A. Fletcher, Saint James' Catapault: The Life and Times of Diego Gelmírez of Santiago de Compostela to this article? --Stlemur 18:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

And FWIW, that text is inexpertly copypasted from [2]. --Stlemur 19:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Cider and Curries

Happened to notice the cider and curries link was removed. I think it's common knowledge that drinking Cider whilst eating curries improves the dining experience, and is certainly more favourable than lager or even the Indian beers. Well it passes my taste test...

Can you find a reliable, academic source to back this up? --Stlemur 13:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Does me devouring curries whilst on the Cider razz count at all? http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~pakcs/cider/

UK Cider: Real cider It is sometimes possible to find this in larger stores, usually in 2 litre flagons with a cloudy appearance and a ring of yeast sediment around the bottom. When you get home, put it in the fridge for an hour or so and then enjoy with a nice curry.

"It's a nice drop to have standing at the bar, and a lot of people like to have a pint with their meal. Cider has an affinity with spicy foods and it's one of the few things that really goes with curry." - http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/04/23/1019441236651.html

http://www.westcountycider.com/cdr-food.html

There's general agreement among all the cider makers I consulted that the drink pairs well with spicy Asian foods, including curries. Wade Bennett of Rockridge Orchard in Enumclaw especially likes such matchups. He serves cider with sweet and sour dishes too. Having served cider numerous times with Indian and Indonesian curries, we can heartily endorse the cider makers' enthusiasm for this pairing. http://seattlepi.com/nwgardens/254442_smith05.html

Many curries are also made with cider vinegar. Doesn't take a scientist to work out which foods go well with flavours! I'll put it back in!

It's unencyclopedic and POV. --Stlemur 15:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Snakebite

Is a snakebite almost always lager and cider? I've heard of people having ale and cider but I've never seen it happen. --Stlemur 15:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

cider house

When I first came down to Berkeley there was still an example of a working cider house in the area. It was a farm cottage set in its own orchard; the cider was brewed on the premises, and cider was all it sold, I think. I think its demise was in part a consequence of the change in UK taxation in the mid 1970s. Anyone know of any current working examples in the UK? Linuxlad 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of any but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence...I'll ask around. --Stlemur 23:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

(Statistically it is :-). ) Search on 'cider house halmore' to track down the last example I knew locally - this was still working in the early to mid 70s. Please edit my addition, but don't remove totaly, becasue the basic drift is certainly correct Linuxlad

First of all there's the article's other statement that cider houses are alive and well in the Basque Country. Second of all, if we're using your definition of "a farm cottage set in its own orchard; the cider was brewed on the premises, and cider was all it sold", then there are a couple of examples in Wales, depending on exactly how strict you want to be about "cottage". A lot of these places don't publish internet addresses, though, but have a look at [[3]]. This is just Wales; I can't address Somerset or the West Country personally. --Stlemur 09:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[4] Ralph's Cider in Powys maintains a cider house. --Stlemur 09:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well there's no doubt that most have now gone around here (I phoned the other one advertising in Halmore to check :-) - even in this case she only had an off-licence, in recent years, I gather. The point I think is that until 1970ish they didn't need _any_ licence to sell their own cider in their front parlour. So there's a good reason why they folded. I've re-edited. Please try and reach a compromise which gets the point over, rather than just rm'ing Linuxlad

With all due respect, the claim you were making was simply untrue. You've shown that one cider house you used to go to has closed, and you're using that to say "there's no doubt that" they're gone now. Could you clarify, maybe, what you're trying to say? --Stlemur 10:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

We're editing at cross-purposes here! Firstly this is in a UK context, and more specifically a West Country one. In that context, I think my statement that is now there, 'there existed many cider houses, most have gone', is correct - albeit this is based on limited data, but it is not based on one point as you claim. Moreover, (and as an astrophysicist I'd hope this would appeal,) there are good theoretical reasons why this happened - as I understand it you didn't need any licence to sell cider in your parlour until the early 70s. But I'm repeating myself :-) Linuxlad

So what is that data, other than your personal experiences? --Stlemur 12:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In essence in this area there are lots of 'the old cider house' cottages which aren't that now and that I know of the last locally (but alas never drank there) and have often discussed it with others who might have corrected me. But, let me put it back out you - OK I'm wrong, there are really lots of old-style cider houses down here and I'm just not sufficiently old or well-travelled to know of them - make me an edit that reflects _your_ different position.Linuxlad

The information we have comes down to "There were cider houses. There may be fewer now, but there may not be." In light of that, I think we should just be silent on the matter until we have something definitive to point to. --Stlemur 15:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Pear cider

I had this last night. Apparently it's Swedish. "Kopparberg" or something. [5] Don't know if there should be a separate article or this one should be amended. GiollaUidir 14:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, see Pear cider. GiollaUidir 14:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Spinning off list

Should the list of brands of cider be spun off into its own article? --Stlemur 22:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The Channel Islands -- where?

Where do we put the information on the Channel Islands?

• Legally they're part of the United Kingdom, more or less.
• In terms of cidermaking tradition the text seems to imply that they're more Norman.
• At the moment they're in their own section.

I'm inclined to favor putting them as a subsection under France, because of the stylistic similarity and linguistic commonality. I think being on their own doesn't make sense as they're not an independent state, and this breaks with the standard presentation of the article; and putting them under Britain doesn't make sense because there's so little common heritage.

On the other hand, French cider from the southwest is more like Basque and Spanish cider (well, it is Basque cider) than it's like Norman cider. --Stlemur 14:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Legally and constitutionally, the Channel Islands are not part of the UK; culturally and historically, they are part of the Duchy of Normandy. Of course, Channel Islands is only a geographical term as politically they are two separate self-governing bailiwicks. Unfortunately, a British Isles geographical grouping would make sense from one point of view but would not be acceptable to the majority of the Irish. Man vyi 14:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Swedish Cider

Sweden has a LARGE market for cider as it is very popular here. Why is Sweden not on this list? It seems comprehensive, but needs Sweden added. Perhaps an expect can do this? If not, perhaps I will.

American Apple Cider is not Apple Juice

This article must be about both hard apple cider, as used in the UK with its population of 60 million, and non-alcoholic apple cider, as used in the US which, with a population of 300 million, has the majority of all natively English-speaking people on the planet.

Apple cider is not apple juice. Any American can easily differentiate the two in a blind taste test. While it does not have alcohol in it, apple cider is "soured" in the process of its creation, for a dramatically different flavor. --Kaz 22:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a difficult issue for Wikipedia. We need there to be two equally acceptable terms, one for the fairly universal alcoholic stuff, one for the almost-purely-American non-alcoholic stuff. Such terms don't exist (because, outside the United States, the term "hard cider" seems slightly ridiculous, and, in the United States, why should people say "non-alcoholic cider" if they don't want to)?

I say almost-purely-American because, when I was a boy (too young to drink English cider) there was a non-alcoholic equivalent in Britain too, and I liked it. But it wasn't called cider. I knew it only by its trade name, Cydrax, and I don't know whether it ever had a generic name.

The simple argument about majority of English speakers, incidentally, doesn't work. A great many of those 300 million are not native English speakers. And English Wikipedia isn't for native English speakers only. But the problem you pose is still a valid one.

Wikipedia sometimes handles such issues by disambiguation rather than by saying an article "must be". Will disambiguation work in this case? Andrew Dalby 09:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, since people in the US refer to it almost exclusively as apple cider, I did already split the apple cider of the apple juice article (which consisted disproportionately of hard cider advocates' edits oriented toward proving apple cider is not cider) off into its own apple cider entry. Since "cider" is any strong drink, it's always struck me as strange that brits call the alcoholic variety just "cider". Perhaps "apple cider" is too complicated to say if you've had too many pints of it, a problem which doesn't occur with the American variety. --Kaz 14:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, both usages are slightly odd historically (after all, American apple cider is not "strong drink" at all)! Andrew Dalby 19:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure it is...it can be almost like strong lemonade in impact, compared to mere apple juice. --Kaz 19:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's still a "soft drink" though. violet/riga (t) 22:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be exact, "Cider" (the word) always refers to an alcoholic beverage- it is from the Middle English term "Cidre", in turn from the Late Latin "sicera"- which means literally: "intoxicating drink". Patch86 18:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Futher mild digging even got me the etymology of the American usage- during the prohibition, it would appear a company called "Martinelli's" produced a specifically "non-alcoholic cider"- the term seems to have evolved from there. Patch86 01:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the term "American cider" can be used here. A very common ingredient to the cultural experience in Michigan and perhaps the entire US are autumnal trips to the cider mill where people buy cider and donuts. Pasteurized cider is far more tart and tangy than just plain unfiltered apple juice.. unless it's the unpasteurized, straight from the press variety. Nonetheless, the term Cider in America means something entirely different although no doubt related to the millions living in the US. Thus a term differentiation is in order. --68.22.19.194 21:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It's already done: look at apple cider.--Boffob 21:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Great! The Apple Cider page does a perfect job of describing the American style beverage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.22.19.194 (talk) 15:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

spinoff to List of ciders by country

A lot of the information on regional characters of ciders should be here, IMO; a list of brands of cider deserves a seperate article, of course, but the current division goes too far. --Stlemur 15:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

ingredients

Unregistered user claims, UK commerical ciders are made from fermented glucose syrup and chinese apple concentrate. Without references this is a little dubios, a few mins at bulmers web site suggests even in strongbow and blackthorn the vast majority ingredients is fermented apple jiuce with a bit of water, sugar and an acid stabaliser, hardly 'real cider' but still apples, the vast majority of which are grown in the UK or irleand. Bjrobinson 17:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

According to a cider maker I know, Magner's uses actual apples, but they use a variety called the Norman which is nearly flavorless but very economical. --Stlemur 17:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Freeze Distillation

"In freeze distillation, hazardous concentrations of methanol and fusel oil may develop." I would recommend this be removed for FUD; AFAIK both methanol and fusel fuels are created during fermentation, not the distillation process. Yashy 11:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The alcohols develop during the fermentation (especially during warm fermentation), but only reach harmful concentrations after the freeze distillation. --Stlemur 20:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Stlemur. The statement could be reworded to be a bit more clear, but it's factually correct. -MalkavianX 20:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps "As the alcohol by volume is increased with freeze distillation, it is possible a hazardous level of fusel fuels could be concentrated as well". I would also like to see the addition of an easy way to test this level of fusel fuels for the experimenter, as I believe this is a fairly rare occurance? Yashy 09:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Beefsteak myth

There's been a small edit war between Gonky and the others about the "beefsteak myth." Please leave some discussion here about why this section should or shouldn't be here. bibliomaniac15 01:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

It appears completely irrelevent and is written in unencyclopedic style. That's why I reverted it twice now. Hopefully I won't have to do it again...--Boffob 01:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

For some reason, though the article is without that contentious section, my second revert doesn't appear in the article history (or my contributions history). Is this a local problem or is it some global wikipedia bug?--Boffob 01:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I asked Gonky to leave an explanation. Hopefully, they'll reply soon. bibliomaniac15 01:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Should not be included surely. Strange myth to enter into this article... i have however heard about the one using a dead rat Bjrobinson 09:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

We apologize, it appears we were carried away by cider. The light of day has brought us into agreement with the consensus which believes the section should be deleted. We've attempted to delete but the pernicious material still shows. User:Gonky

Bug in the page?

I reverted edits by Gonky a second time but this edit never showed up on the history page (though the page appears to be as I last edited it). To make sure the change did occur, I tried reverting to the 17:00 January 8 version again, and yet again, nothing was logged in the history page. Has anyone else tried to edit the page since? The history page still states that the 01:17 January 9 Gonky version is the last edit. Does anybody know what is happening here?--Boffob 15:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I just tested and normal editing seems to be working. Is there any explanation why a revert would not appear in the edit history?--Boffob 20:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It happens to me too. I believe it happens when the browser is using an outdated cache. bibliomaniac15 03:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Lead in cider:

User:84.71.153.214 claims: It wasn't just the lead in the presses that was the problem, lead was also used to sweeten vinegary cider its poisonous properties disregarded in the pursuit of profit.

I find this dubious but it could be true. Is there supporting information? --Stlemur 13:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what period we're talking about, but it's difficult to imagine a period of history when lead would have been a more profitable sweetener than honey or sugar. In any case, I can't see that any sweetener would effectively mask the taste of vinegar. Andrew Dalby 14:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, now I see it was the 17th and 18th centuries. It is true that before the danger of lead was understood, the flavour of products that happened to be made in lead containers was liked. The sentence by User:84.71.153.214 seems to me to mislead with the words "also used" (implying that lead was intentionally added) and perhaps with "disregarded in the pursuit of profit", for which one would want to see a citation. Andrew Dalby 14:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The big "Cider history" edit

This edit here could, I think, be turned into useful content if we can confirm the source. --Stlemur 03:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Pint of Thatcher's is captioned different in two places in Wiki

In the cider entry is is labelled: "Thatchers traditional scrumpy cider in a pint glass"

But in the Thacther's entry in wikipedia the same picture is used, but is labelled: "Thatchers Traditional Dry Draught Cider in a pint glass, as served in a pub"

So which is it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.178.180.5 (talk) 17:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

As a regular Thatcher's drinker I am pretty certain it is scrumpy. --Cheesy Mike 17:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

By far my favourite tipple. I would say dry draught... its a bit crisp for scrumy, and a commercial brew. Bjrobinson 15:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Is "scrumpy" the same thing as "real cider"?

I'm a little confused about the definitions here. Many cider drinkers seem to be of the opinion that scrumpy is "the real McCoy" and that conventional ciders are a pale imitation. However, this doesn't appear to dovetail with the CAMRA definition of "real cider". Some questions:

• Is "scrumpy" the same thing as "real cider"?

If not:

• Is "scrumpy" always "real cider"? Is it possible to make scrumpy that is not "real cider" by CAMRA's definition?
• Is "real cider" always "scrumpy"? Is it possible to make cider that is not scrumpy yet still fits the CAMRA definition of "real cider"?

217.155.20.163 14:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a really good question. Let me add my US$0.02 - Scrumpy is real cider made here in the south west of England, with the proviso that all the scrumpy that I have seen (and drunk!) has been unfiltered and cloudy. So for me a crisp definition of scrumpy would be "unfiltered real cider made in the south west of England". --Cheesy Mike 15:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Bouché cider fits the real cider definition. but wouldn't be classed as scrumpy. To my mind, scrumpy would be non-sparkling rough cider. Man vyi 15:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

While we at what is or isn't scrumpy, "scrump" is a much more widely used term for stealing apples than "local dialect" implies. Web-found definitions tend to label it British and we used the word in London (well, more tree-laden Middlesex) over sixty years ago. SilasW 18:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Beer

I just removed the Wikipedia:WikiProject Beer link. Cider is not beer. It is brewed from different ingredients, using a different process, tastes different and looks different. I would be interested to hear why the person who put Cider into the beer project feels that it should be so. --Cheesy Mike 06:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It often gets lumped in with Beer (being a much larger category) by association- that is, they're both served by the pint, served on tap, and it is drunk by the same people who drink lager, in the same situations. The fact that they're entirely different in almost every important way rarely puts people off this- take the Campaign for Real Ale, for example, and its inclusion of ciders in its dealings.

In this instance, it's handy because the Wikiproject Beer can give this page a lot of well needed attention; and seeing as it doesn't fit in to any larger project any more comfortably... Patch86 19:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this reasoning. In the US and UK both, cider and beer appear side-by-side far more than, say, cider and wine; I think this might be true in France and Germany as well. The association is quite close although it's a fair point that as drinks they are entirely different (apart from that one style of cider with hops in it). --Stlemur 20:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Here in Belgium, cider is always stocked on retailers' shelves with sparkling wine, never with beer. IMO cider is much more closely related to wine than to beer, for the following reasons:

• cider never contains hops, and is never bitter;
• cider has the same categories of sweetness as wine: sweet, demi-sec, brut, etc.;
• cider is always sold in champagne-like bottles.

I for one would never associate cider with beer, they're just way too different. People who lump them together (Yanks & Brits) are just philistines ;o) --Targeman 21:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Cider is a wine not a beer the process of making cider is the same as making wine and is not the same as beer reff http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/twu/cider I would suggest putting under the wine category Ctjohnst 02:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

CAMRA include cider in their remit not because they think it is a kind of beer (they know it isn't), but because both drinks are the product of a local craft tradition, which should be defended (as they see it) against the large-scale producers. 62.25.109.195 13:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

West Country

Under the West Country section of the UK section it talks about Herefordshire and Worcestershire, which are not considered part of the West Country (although they make up the Three Counties with Gloucestershire, which is normally (although not always) considered in the West Country). Not sure how to reorganise best though, any thoughts?137.138.46.155 14:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

cite?

Overall, the UK produces five million hectoliters (110 million imperial gallons) of cider per year.

can this be cited? just seems like alot

This line caught my eye. Is hectoliters a common unit in English? It just looks weird to me. Why not say five hundred million liters, or half a billion liters instead of using hecto, which as far as I know is rarely used other than with the unit gram? /85.228.39.223 03:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hectoliters are what the EU has, for whatever reason, chosen to measure alcoholic beverage production, as well as the UK's alcohol regulations. --Stlemur 05:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

tooth

"It can be very acidic and contain high sugar levels. Excessive consumption can therefore erode the tooth enamel rapidly."

This sounds absurd to me; the same (debunked) claim is made about soda pop as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.45.200 (talk) 22:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I think cider can be acidic and may contain high sugar levels, but this depends on the apples and how it is made. I have removed this line for now. If it can be referenced it should be put back in. Beechhouse (talk) 12:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that apple juice is acidic (similar pH as soda IIRC), I'm pretty sure cider is as well. But the tooth erosion claim, if true (one has to define "excessive" and "rapidly"), is not specific to cider, and holds for all drinks with similar pH (and possibly sugar content) (here are some numbers). So I'm pretty sure it's unnecessary, as it would be similar to adding a warning on the excessive consumption of alcohol in any alcoholic beverage article.--Boffob (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Re citation needed about Basque cider houses

Someone before me added a comment on the way a visit to a cider house runs. I can assure you that what has been stated is absolutely correct, so I don´t think citation needed should remain there. Iñaki LL (talk) 13:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Related Drinks

Spotted deletion of my admittedly unreferenced text. Rather than delete this stuff which I humbly suggest is relevant, I've found references. Hope this is ok. Can't see that it's correct to delete passages just because references have not been found immediately. Of course, if the references do not meet Deiz's exacting standards, I accept his superior perspective and of course he should delete again. --Baggie (talk) 02:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Alcoholic vs. non-alcoholic

The opening paragraph seems to be too definitive when it states that "Cider... is an alcoholic beverage...." Even outside of the US/Canada, there are enough references to non-alcoholic Cider to merit a different wording. Might I suggest: "Cider... is a beverage made mainly from the juice of apples, though pears are also used;[1] (in the UK, pear cider is known as perry). In most of the world, cider is an alcoholic drink. However, it may also be non-alcoholic, as is the case in the United States and parts of Canada, where the term almost exclusively...." Zhiroc (talk) 23:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Another data point: in Sweden, there are several well-known brands of non-alcoholic or low-alcohole cider: clear, carbonated, apple- or pear-based; used as a more mature and slightly less sweet alternative to soda soft drinks. My guess is that these have been popular since the early 20th century. They don't seem to match the Apple cider article very well. The term cider is also used for sparkling wine-like alcoholic ciders, and for alcopop-like sweet ciders, which have become a popular way to get drunk in recent years, for people who don't like the taste of beer. JöG (talk) 20:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

This was discussed before (see Archive 1) with the idea of resolving the differences in naming of cider, hard cider, apple cider and apple juice by moving content to separate pages. In the end, this page (Cider) was used for the alcoholic drink. There is a note at the top re-directing people looking for the non-alcoholic variety to Apple cider. The Swedish case above shows that there is no easy way to define any of these terms. My own impression is that it's best to keep the introduction as concise as possible and avoid overlapping of definitions where possible. Beechhouse (talk) 09:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Scrumpy

At the moment the article says that scrumpy is a name for cider in the west country. It doesn't mention however that scrumpy is also a type of cider (cloudy, flat, sharp and with sediment). Some mention of this should be made. Smartse (talk) 21:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Kopparberg

It says citation needed... I see them on the shelf everyday but is that own research? ; ) How do you cite something like that? Akerbeltz (talk) 14:00, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You can get some kopparberg in bottles in pubs in the UK 134.36.93.46 (talk) 07:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Theres at least five others popular brands of cider in Sweden as well, Rekorderlig for example. If not more brands is mentiond as well I think this counts as commercial and should therefore be deleted or rewritten. --Christoffre (talk) 21:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, there should be more on cider in Sweden and no particular brands mentioned. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 23:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Use of beef in cider

My grandfather comes from a Welsh farming community. He worked on farms and in farming for most of his working life apart from 1939-1945. Cider-making is part of Britain's agricultural tradition, as farmers would provide cider to workers. My grandfather has told me all about the cider-making process, including a particular and peculiar detail which is missed in this article... Traditionally, when cider is too acidic, a large piece of beef is thrown into the vat. The acid goes to work on the meat and is neutralised, to the point that there is no evidence of the meat in the remaining brew. Unfortunately I can't find any info on this on the net, does anyone know of any referable resources we can use to include this information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.35.235 (talk) 00:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this site http://www.devon-calling.com/food%20and%20drink/cider.htm any use to you.MidlandLinda (talk) 22:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Magners and Strongbow?

Can someone replace the pictures of Magners (ugh) and Strongbow (meh) with some nicer ciders? :-) I would but I don't have a nice camera. 155.198.65.73 (talk) 17:53, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Disputable health benefits

I notice the health section mentions there are positive health effects because of antioxidants and so forth, but claims like this have been long disproved in clinical trials. To quote from the antioxidants page already linked to in the section (which has plenty of references you may want to check).

Antioxidants can cancel out the cell-damaging effects of free radicals.[1] Furthermore, people who eat fruits and vegetables, which happen to be good sources of antioxidants, have a lower risk of heart disease and some neurological diseases,[133] and there is evidence that some types of vegetables, and fruits in general, protect against a number of cancers.[134] These observations suggested the idea that antioxidants might help prevent these conditions. However, this hypothesis has now been tested in many clinical trials and does not seem to be true, since antioxidant supplements have no clear effect on the risk of chronic diseases such as cancer and heart disease.[133][135] This suggests that other substances in fruit and vegetables (possibly flavonoids), or a complex mix of substances, may contribute to the better cardiovascular health of those who consume more fruit and vegetables

I suggest at the very least removing the antioxidants reference and possibly the entire section. Suggesting that something as obviously harmful to your health as an alcoholic beverage has health benefits (which don't exist) is pretty irresponsible. --Davey McDave (talk) 21:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Can we get an actual citation to all these supposed studies of yours disproving the efficacy of apple cider's various constituent molecules, antioxidants and the like as a promoter of health? From a quick Google check it would seem that moderate alcohol consumption promotes a longer life span and that the antioxidants in apple cider are well metabolized in the human body, including a study that they act upon colon cancer cells. --Rarian rakista (talk) 06:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

References

The full antioxidants article describes a much larger complexity of effects, and does not dismiss their effect in full. The paragraph you quote is also backed up by RS. Moreover, alcohol also has (some) benefit (see Long-term effects of alcohol). So I wouldn't be so blunt in removing it, but thanks for let us notice the issue. --Cyclopia^talk 21:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Needs a history section and a brief overview at the beginning

The current opening is a long winded mish mash of various facts and figures, IMHO it should be a concise historically grounded introduction to cider. It just seems too wonkish right now.

Here is one to start on http://www.drinkfocus.com/articles/apple-cider/history-of-cider.php

--Rarian rakista (talk) 06:12, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

While I agree the article needs improvement, there is no way that site can be considered a reliable source. --Simple Bob (talk) 09:16, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced elements and possible POV.

The country sections, especially the Australia section, are largely unsourced and as such, some claims may be considered WP:POV or WP:OR and might have to be removed from the article. This refers most specifically to claims about market shares, market and producer growth, and consumer appraisal of the products. --Kudpung (talk) 04:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

"The term pear cider is not recognised by CAMRA"

CAMRA is not an official body, it is a lobby group, and its judgements are therefore partisan - especially in this case, where we simply have a matter of changing use of language. If the change is to be alluded to, the disapproval of a very small number of pedants can be noted elsewhere, without giving CAMRA's POV undue prominence. 92.13.246.182 (talk) 15:33, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. The Defra / EU definition of Herefordshire Perry (a PGI) states that up to a specific percentage of apple juice is allowed. CAMRA is a long-standing organisation, but its position on perry vs. pear cider is just an opinion not anything official. I think it is given undue weight in the intro to cider, and the topic is covered in sufficient depth anyway in the Perry article. I'm going to delete it from here. --Simple Bob ^{a.k.a. The Spaminator} (Talk) 17:13, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Mulled Cider

Uh, why does mulled cider redirect to this article? It should be redirecting to http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Apple_cider ... Unfortunately, I don't know how to change the redirecting things myself, or I'd do it already. Xander T. (talk) 04:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Part of the confusion Xander, mulling can happen with either non-alcoholic or alcoholic products, as in mulled wine - maybe 'mulled cider' should be directed to a disambiguation page to give you the choice Red58bill (talk) 03:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Just arrived here while looking for Mulled Cider. I always make Mulled Cider with alcoholic Cider here in the UK. I don't know how to sort out disambiguation - can someone else do this? Sue De Nimes (talk) 15:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Apple juice vs. apple cider

I suggest that this article change the reference in the introductory paragraph to 'apple juice' to 'apple cider' or 'apple pressings' (with necessary country caveats) since, as stated in the article on apple juice, apple juice is pasteurized (and thus will not by itself ferment). ('apple pressings' is more precise since the 'Pasteurization' section of the article on 'apple cider' implies that apple cider sold in U.S. grocery stores has been pasteurized.)Pegordon (talk) 23:00, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Apple juice is the stuff that comes out of the fruit when it is pressed. If it is to be bottled and sold as juice it must be pasturized to prevent fermentation. The difference between apple juice and cider is the same as the difference between grape juice and wine. You seem to be confused about the difference, I'm not sure how your suggestion would help clear up the confusion. "Apple pressings" sounds like the remains of the apples after the juice is pressed out. Roger (talk) 08:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Inventor / Patent in 1871

The inventor / patentee of "cider" is George Hamli, from Connecticut. http://ctinventor.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/connecticut-patent-of-the-day-apple-cider-season/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twillisjr (talk • contribs) 15:09, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Your link shows he did not patent cider. The patent is for "an improvement in cider-making." Cider was around looooong before 1871. Mrs smartygirl (talk) 18:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

availability by country

For example, in Finland and Sweden cider can be found from virtually any convenience store and restaurant. But, while England has cider traditions, there were surprisingly many restaurants in London which did not serve cider at all (though every pub seemed have some). And, I was told there was no cider available in the U.S. at all, at least in Las Vegas and New York City where my friends visited. 85.217.38.85 (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Somerset scrumpy image

An editor pixellated the image on the container to avoid copyvio, which i appreciate, but now we cannot be sure what the container really is. I dont think it should be used to illustrate any articles.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:39, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Biased Perspective

This article seems to be written from an American (or at least not international) perspective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.133.74 (talk) 16:46, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Short "history" section removed; "production" heading restored

I took out the very short "history" section. A history section would be a good idea, but this wasn't it. The main claims made --

The first recorded reference to cider is in Ancient Roman literature resulting from Julius Caesar's invasion of Britain in 55 BC. The Roman legions discovered the Ancient Britons fermenting crab apples. The legions brought the concept back to Rome and so to the rest of the Roman Empire --

are completely false. There's no mention of Ancient Britons making cider in Roman literature, and practically no evidence at all for cider in England before the Norman Conquest. I have added a sentence under "United Kingdom" lower down, citing a good source. If anyone thinks I'm wrong in any of this, please explain! Thanks Andrew Dalby 20:39, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Mr Dalby I have read over the books and found out you were wrong-there is evidence, much of it new, that cider or at least a relative was kicking around England at the time. The mistake in the sentence above implies that it was brought back to Rome from England when it was the other way around: Romans perfected the method of juicing apples and then spread it to Espagna, Franconia, Gaul, and when they finally got to England, they found Celts making a related drink: all they added was the sweeter apples. Even after the Romans left there was more than a fighting chance that the apples survived as they were likely cultivated by the monks and Saxons, and we know they could have imported the equipment from Franconia, one of their places of departure when they conquered the Celts (and yes, the Franconians had long learned how to make the booze.) I look out on my own native New England and I hate to break it to you but some of the apples the English planted in the 1600s (going on 400 years ago, mind) still are very much alive: grafting was not a popular method round this country until the 19th century when people could afford it, and yet apples for cider were up and running 60 years after Jamestown. Even a cultivated apple from time to time will sprout from seed-that Red Delicious apple at the supermarket is a prime example and there s no reason to believe it did not happen to the Saxons, in addendum to the sources I already provided for UK history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowkittie5460 (talk • contribs) 06:08, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Freeze Distillation and Methanol

I've been doing some looking around, and as far as I can tell discussions of the dangers of freeze distillation on the internet all lead back here. The fractional freezing, applejack, and ice beer articles don't mention it at all, and there isn't a citation for the information on this page. I've marked the sentence citation needed, but if anyone can shed some light on the issue I think we'd all appreciate it. 128.84.127.234 (talk) 06:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

What are the other 65%?

In UK law, it must contain at least 35% apple juice.

If i understand correctly the british cider is diluted with water, though i do not now if the water is added before or after fermentation. Strongbow Gold lists water, apple juice from concentrated apple juice, glucose syrup, glucose-fructose syrup, food acidifier: malic acid, anti-oxidant: sulphur dioxide, colouring agent: cochineal, burned sugar on its website. The the label of a german bottle of "cider" says that it contains 60% of "Apfelwein" (=apple wine), but, unusual for germany, no list of ingedients.--77.13.216.100 (talk) 20:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

A Suggestion

"In 2014, a study by The Daily Telegraph found that a pint of mass-market cider (Bulmers) contained five teaspoons (20.5g) of sugar, nearly as much as the WHO recommends as an adult's daily allowance of added sugar, and 5-10 times the sugar in lager or ale."

Boo, groan. So what if (some) cider is sugary? This sentence needs to be struck from the first paragraph.

The wine article's header entirely fails to mention that wine is chock full of booze, and therefore prone to giving you cirrhosis, dementia, and esophageal cancer; in the interest of fairness to all beverages, shouldn't it be updated to reflect these facts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.198.30.48 (talk) 03:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Cider vs perry

This article suggests that cider is made from apples or pears. I always understood that cider is made solely from apples and perry is the equivalent made from pears. Shouldn't the pear info be removed from the introduction? Perry is dealt with further on in the article. 217.155.195.19 18:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that perry should be removed from the introduction as it is mentioned as a variation down the article. My understanding (based in UK) is that cider is made with apples and perry is made with pears in a cider style. In a similar way, wine is made from grapes, but apple wine is made solely from apples in a wine style. Pear cider suggests to me that the drink is made from pears using a cider production method. Beechhouse (talk) 12:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC

Weighing into the discussion, Perry is a type of pear cider made from specific types of pear. Pear cider is only perry if it is made from perry pears. See: http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Perry_Pears

It all depends on the type of perry also... per BJCP style 27 (homebrewing competition rules) found here, common perry is made from table/culinary pears, whereas traditional perry is made from perry specific pears (like the difference between table/eating apples and cider apples)... if we're not going to mention a specific type of perry, then there is no reason to mention a specific type of pear. Either way, I agree that pears should not be in the lead for cider, if perry is mentioned later... - Adolphus79 (talk) 02:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Respectfully, I think the anonymous user has misinterpreted the webpage he or she cites. I know of nothing in the literature which says that a drink fermented from pears other than perry pears is not perry. Meanwhile, it is the assessment of CAMRA that perry and pear cider are simply different names for the same drink.[6] --Killing Vector (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No, "Perry pears" just means pears that are particularly suitable for making perry. Just like you can make cider from any apples, but usually "cider apples" are used. 155.198.65.73 (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Personally I think perry should be mentioned so long as it is made clear that fermented alcohol made from apples is cider and from pears, perry. They should be mentioned together because the methodology to make them is the same and otherwise historically they went together like peas and carrots: wherever the English went, so went the pears with the apples. I speak from North America, btw-it is not really a joke. We have some incredibly old pears growing in the woods thanks to you guys that are so sour that the deer flee from them!!Shadowkittie5460 (talk) 05:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Swedish cider differences?

Most Swedish cider has little in common with traditional cider from other countries. Buyers beware of the difference between actual cider, and the cheaper imitation, which is very sweet and often berry or fruit flavoured, making it more like an alcoholic fruit soda.

Does this line not need revision or deletion? Comes across as typical beer snobbery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.122.198 (talk) 17:09, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

festivals: Halloween --> autumn

Hi. I changed Halloween to autumn because this reflects both the current use of the game (in the UK, at least) and its origins better. Here is a citation for the change: http://www.history.com/news/ask-history/what-is-bobbing-for-apples I didn't include the reference in the article because it doesn't actually contain the main claim made in the original sentence (apple bobbing is played because apples are plentiful) so I left the citation needed tag in place instead. GoddersUK (talk) 08:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Applejack

Fixing "applejack" which is distilled,either by ice or steam distillation. Mydogtrouble (talk) 09:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Good catch. I just moved it to the "See also" section, which is more appropriate. --Simple Bob (talk) 11:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the whole applejack business should be discussed in such depth in this article. Applejack has an article of its own, where all of this would be more appropriate. --BjKa (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

The article currently says: "Home production of applejack is not illegal in the US, but popular in Europe."
Well, both, the question of legality, as well as the question of popularity in different parts of the world are quite interesting and definitely worth exploring in the article applejack, but comparing the legality in one country with the popularity in some other continent is logical nonsense. --BjKa (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Fermentation

If anyone could find any more detailed coverage on this section, that would be great. For example there is nothing on the type of yeast used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatimmei (talk • contribs) 15:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I just like to say quickly that I am new to editing here on Wikipedia; however, I do have experience when it comes to micro brewing cider. I think it should be added that many breweries add artificial sweeteners to their cider to sweeten the ending drink. This has to be done because if you simply add more sugar to the brew the yeast in the cider will just turn it into more alcohol, and the drink won’t be any sweeter at the end of the process. This also kinda deals with the question below about what else is put in cider. Beatnik logan (talk) 22:06, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR

I've noticed an occasional back-and-forth happening with English spelling variations, such as this revert in October.

WP:ENGVAR states: "When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary."

The subject isn't any more strongly tied to the UK or the US, so I looked back in the history to see how this article began, and what regional spelling was established.

The earliest revision of this article that shows any establishment of regional spelling is from 18 December 2001 with the introduction of a misspelled American spelling of "pasteurized" as "pasturized". This spelling was corrected and wikilinked 3 days later, at which time the American spelling "unpasteurized" was also added.

Only American spelling variants remained in the article for about 4 years until 18 December 2005 when the British spelling "colourings" was added by an editor who, in the very same edit, inexplicably also used the American spelling "flavorings". The article remained in a mixed UK/US state for 3 years after that, using inconsistent spelling such as pasteurised/pasteurized in the same article.

Finally on 11 February 2008, all remnants of American spelling were excised from the article.

It seems that the original regional spelling of this article has not been retained in accordance with WP:ENGVAR, and gradually evolved to UK spelling without any real consensus one way or another. Consistent usage was American for years, and for the last 9 years there seem to be efforts to enforce consistent UK usage. I cannot find anywhere in the archive where this was ever discussed.

Possibly one solution is to align the spelling after whichever region is the largest producer of cider. That may be the UK, for all I know, in which case there's no problem. ~Anachronist (talk) 00:08, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Sources

The production section needs citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Talon bar (talk • contribs) 01:51, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2018

Under New Zealand

Able is unfined and unfiltered,

needs to be

Abel is unfined and unfiltered, Astru.design (talk) 02:40, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

 Fixed General Ization ^Talk 02:44, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Microbiology: Cider Yeast

Myself and Spencer Kendall are planning to add a section on cider yeast to the page:

Yeast

The selection of yeast used for cider production is critical to the quality of the final product. As with other fermented beverages, like wine and beer, the strain of yeast used to carry out the alcoholic fermentation also converts precursor molecules into the odorants found in the final product. In general, two broad categories of yeast are used for cider making: commercially developed strains and wild, or autochthonous, strains. In either case, the species tend to be either Saccharomyces cerevisiae or Saccharomyces bayanus. Commercial strains are available for purchase from numerous distributors, and their characteristics are typically outlined in manuals from the companies. Selection for fermentation may be based on a yeast's ability to ferment at particular sugar concentrations, temperatures, or pH. Some producers may also select for yeasts that produce killer factors, allowing them to out-compete other yeast in the juice, or they may select yeast that contribute mouthfeel or specific aromas to the cider.

"Wild fermentations" occur when autochthonous yeast are allowed to carry out fermentation; indigenous yeasts can spontaneously initiate fermentation without any addition of other yeast strains by the cider maker. Autochthonous yeasts are wild yeast strains that are endemic to the specific location in which a cider is produced; this is the traditional method used for cider making, and many producers feel that the strains unique to their cidery contribute a sense of terroir to their product. Wild yeast populations can be incredibly diverse and commonly include species of Saccharomyces, Candida, Pichia, Hanseniaspora and Metschnikowia. Typically, the native yeast take up residence in the cidery, and can be important to the unique flavor of the product. Although it was once believed that the native yeast carrying out these spontaneous fermentations also came from the orchard itself, research has shown that the microbes cultured from apples in the orchard do not align with the microbes found during the various stages of fermentation, suggesting that the sole source of native yeast is the cidery. Indigenous yeast strain population dynamics are affected by climatic conditions, apple variety, geographic location, and cider making technologies used. These variables cause different regions to host unique endemic yeast populations. The particular composition of endemic yeast strains and the yeast’s activity during fermentation are responsible for the unique characteristics of ciders produced in certain regions. Unique autochthonous yeast populations promote different compositions of volatile flavor compounds, which form distinct tastes, aromas, and mouthfeel in finished ciders. Using wild yeast populations for fermentation introduces variability to the cider making process that makes it more difficult to generate multiple batches of cider that retain consistent characteristics. It is difficult to regulate yeast activity and maintain optimal fermentation conditions if the yeast strain being used in fermentation is unknown. In order to find a middle ground between commercial and wild yeast strains, some researchers have instead suggested culturing native yeast from fruits, testing their properties for alcoholic fermentation, then selecting particularly good strains from the cultured batch.

Aside from carrying out the primary fermentation of cider, yeast may also play other roles in cider production. The production of sparkling cider requires a second round of fermentation, and a second yeast selection. The yeast used for the secondary fermentation in sparkling cider production serve the same purpose as the yeast used in the Champagne method of sparkling wine production: to generate carbonation and distinct aromas with a fermentation that occurs in the bottle. The yeast are selected based on critical properties, such as tolerance to high pressure, low temperature, and high ethanol concentration, as well as an ability to flocculate, which allows for riddling to remove the yeast when the fermentation has finished. Some researchers have also suggested that non-Saccharomyces yeasts could be used to release additional flavor or mouthfeel compounds, as they may contain enzymes, such as β-glucosidase, β-xylosidase, or polygalacturonase, which Saccharomyces yeast may not produce.

Not all yeast associated with cider production are necessary for fermentation; many are considered spoilage microbes and can be a significant source of off odors in the finished product. Brettanomyces species produce volatile phenols, especially 4-ethyl phenol, which impart a distinct aroma called "Bretty", typically described as "barnyard", "horsey", or "bandaid". While these aromas would be considered spoilage odors in wines, many cider producers and consumers do not consider them a fault. Yeast species like Hanseniaspora uvarum, Metschnikowia pulcherrima,Saccharomyces uvarum, Zygosaccharomyces cidri, Candida pomicole, and Pichia membranifaciens have also been found to produce enzymes linked to generation of spoilage odors.

References

Spencer Kendall (talk) 19:22, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

TinselWolf (talk) 16:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Looks good to me so far. Interesting and well written. If you want to tighten it up, I'd say the last two sentences of the wild yeast paragraph are unnecessary for an encyclopedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anachronist (talk • contribs) 20:25, May 14, 2018 (UTC)

Cider Styles

Hi, we are planning to edit the section titled Appearances and Types. We want to change the name of the section to Cider Styles, and we plan to add the following information.

Geography and Influence on Modern, Heritage, Specialty Origins

Cider is an ancient beverage, though no one is quite sure when it was first made because of the geography of its main component, the apple.  In the cider market, the ciders can be broken down into two main styles, standard and specialty.  The first group consists of modern ciders and heritage ciders.  Modern ciders are produced from culinary apples such as Gala. Heritage ciders are produced from heritage, cider specific, crab or wild apples, like Golden Russet.  Historically, cider was made from the only resources available to make it, so style wasn’t a large factor when considering the production process.  Apples were historically confined to the cooler climates of Western Europe and Britain where civilization was slow to develop record keeping.  Cider was first made from crab apples, ancestors of the bittersweet and bittersharp apples used by today’s English cider makers.  

English cider contained a drier, higher alcohol content version, using open fermentation vats and bittersweet crab apples.  The French developed a sweet, low alcohol ‘cidre’ taking advantage of the sweeter apples and the keeving process.  These are the roots of the standard styles we know today.  Cider styles evolved based on the methods used, the apples available and local tastes. Production techniques developed, as with most technology, by trial and error.  In fact, the variables were nearly too widespread to track, including: spontaneous fermentation, the type of vessels used, environmental conditions, and the apple varieties. Refinements came much later when cider became a commercial product and the process was better understood. However, since there is growing popularity in ciders, the production of specialty styles has begun to increase.

Modern Ciders

Modern ciders are made from culinary apples and are lower in tannins and higher in acidity than other cider styles. Common culinary apples used in modern ciders include McIntosh, Golden Delicious, Jonagold, Granny Smith, Gala, and Fuji. A sweet or low alcohol cider may tend to have a strong aromatic and flavor character of apple, while drier and higher alcohol ciders will tend to produce a wider range of fruity aromas and flavors. Modern ciders vary in color from pale to yellow and can range from brilliant to a hazy clarity. Clarity can be altered through various cider making practices, depending on the cider maker's intentions.

Heritage Ciders

Heritage ciders are made from both culinary and cider apples, including bittersweet, bittersharp, heirlooms, wild apples, and crabapples. Common apples used in heritage cider production include Dabinett, Kingston Black, Roxbury Russet, and Wickson. Heritage ciders are higher in tannins than modern ciders. They range in color from yellow to amber, and range from brilliant to hazy in clarity. Clarity of heritage ciders also depends on the cider making practices used and will differ by cider maker as well.

Specialty Style Ciders

Specialty style ciders are open to a lot more manipulation than modern or heritage style ciders.  There is no restriction to apple varieties used and the list of specialty styles continues to expand.  Listed on the USACM Cider Style Guide, specialty styles include: fruit, hopped, spiced, wood-aged, sour, and iced ciders.  Fruit ciders have other fruit or juices added before or after fermentation, like cherries, blueberries, and cranberries.  Hopped cider is fermented with added hops, common hop varieties being Cascade, Citra, Galaxy, and Mosaic.  Spiced ciders have various spices added to the cider before, during, or after fermentation.  Spices like cinnamon and ginger are popular to use in production. Wood-aged ciders are ciders that are either fermented or aged in various types of wood barrels, to aid in extraction of woody, earthy flavors. Sour ciders are high acid ciders that are produced with non-standard, non-Saccharomyces yeast and bacteria, which enhance acetic and lactic acid production, in order to reach a sour profile.  Ice ciders can be made by using pre-pressed frozen juice or frozen whole apples. Whole apples either come frozen from the orchard, dependent on harvest date, or are stored in a freezer prior to pressing.  When the pre-pressed juice or whole apples freeze, sugars are concentrated and mostly separated from the water.  Whole apples are then pressed in order to extract the concentrated juice and for the pre-pressed juice, the concentrated solution is drawn off while thawing occurs.  Although, according to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) cider producers can only label a product 'Ice Cider' if it is produced from apples naturally frozen outdoors.

Two styles not mentioned in the USACM Cider Style Guide are Rosé and Sparkling Cider.  Rosé cider can be produced from apple varieties that have reddish-pink pulp, like Pink Pearl and Amour Rouge.  Rosé ciders can also be created through the addition of food grade red dyes, previously used red grape skins, like Marquette with high anthocyanin concentration, red fruits, rose petals, or hibiscus.  Lastly, sparkling ciders can be produced through methods of direct carbonation, addition of carbon dioxide (CO2) or by Méthode Champenoise to re-create the traditional Champagne style. 

References

Specific Cider Styles

Specific Cider Style	Clarity	Color	Apple Type	Adjuncts	ABV
New World	Clear to brilliant	Pale to medium gold	Culinary, wild, crabapples	None	5-8%
English	Slightly cloudy to brilliant	Medium yellow to amber	Bittersweet, bittersharp	None	6-9%
French	Clear to brilliant	Medium yellow to amber	Bittersweet, bittersharp	None	3-6%
New England	Clear to brilliant	Pale to medium yellow	New England	None	7-13%
Applewine	Clear to brilliant	Pale to medium gold	Unspecified apple types	Sugar	9-12%
Cider with Other Fruit	Clear to brilliant	Color varies, color additives appropriate to appearance of added fruit	Unspecified apple types	Fruit or fruit juice	9-12%
Ice Cider	Brilliant	Gold to amber	Unspecified apple types, fruit is frozen prior to pressing or a frozen juice concentrate is used	None	7-13%
Cider with Herbs/Spices	Clear to brilliant	Color varies, color additives appropriate to appearance of added botanicals	Unspecified apple types	Herbs and spices	5-9%
White	Clear to brilliant	Very pale, nearly clear	Apples with pale juice, juice decolorized with charcoal filter	None	6.5-8.4%
Black	Unspecified	Range of Amber shades	Unspecified apple types	Hops, malted barley	Unspecified

References

Cbs278 (talk) 00:03, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Canadian Cider

Is it true Canadian cider must be no more than 13% alcohol by volume? This is only stated four times in the article which seems a touch ambivalent. Perhaps there ought to be a specific article on the strength of Canadian Cider, just to be sure...? Stub Mandrel (talk) 14:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

UK-centric and biased article

This article seems to be very UK-centric, as it mostly talks about UK ciders vs every other countries/types.

The following statement is also not sourced : "The UK has the world's highest per capita consumption, as well as its largest cider-producing companies." It may or may not be true but it needs a source.

Finally the "National varieties" does not include United Kingdom, not because it's been forgotten but because the rest of the article already explained everything about UK Cider. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihadtopickausername (talk • contribs) 12:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't see bias myself, but in either case, it is hardly surprising that the UK would figure highly in the article as cider, it seems, is such a quintessentially English drink... They do actually drink more of the stuff than the rest of us put together in the world

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/24/cider-around-the-world

Cider to the Brits, seems a lot like Stout to the Irish, Lager to the Germans, Wine to the French and Italians or rice-wine to the Japanese... I would imagine that in writing any article about Guinness, for example, it would be hard not to sound a little Irish-centric - but that wouldn't make it biased or inaccurate etc.

No, to me, the article reads fine, and doesn't seem slanted or inaccurate because of any centric/bised pov (full disclosure, I'm not British, I'm German but have lived and worked in the UK several times) M R G WIKI999 (talk) 16:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Article looks balanced to me, considering UK consumption vs rest of the world. Edwardx (talk) 21:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Also see archived talk page entry at Talk:Cider/Archive 1#WP:ENGVAR. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2021 (UTC)