Talk:Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges

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A fact from Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 December 2022 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges, which is claimed to have inspired the "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard", is featured in a James Bond film?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2022/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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... that the church of St Giles, Stoke Poges, is featured in Judy Garland's last film and a James Bond film?
- Reviewed: Chili crisp
- Comment: From WT:DYK :)

Created by KJP1 (talk). Nominated by Theleekycauldron (talk) at 19:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Bond ... Theresa Bond.

Surely there's some way to work in the fact that James Bond's wife is buried there (see img). EEng 21:23, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @EEng: I just went with the hook suggested, but that might be a good AFD hook stand-alone :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:29, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- ALT1: ... that Tracy Bond, wife of James Bond, is buried in the churchyard of the Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges?
  I'm ashamed to say that I just noticed that (apparently) the headstone is a prop. Maybe the article should make that clear. (Or maybe not!) E Eng 21:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  I mean, you didn't actually think a fictional character was buried there... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:33, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  It is indeed a prop. I was amazed to find that Commons had a image! But I think you might have hit on a better hook than any I suggested. KJP1 (talk) 22:47, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  
  I had figured some guy actually named James Bond had a deceased wife. Anyway, we've got a problem in that apparently this object isn't actually in the church (see the img descr pg); it probably needs to be removed from the article, and I'm afraid I've taken us down a dead-end path. (I thought of the idea of an April 1 hook, but I don't really see it working.) E Eng 23:04, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We had "Did you know... that James Bond has died?" in 2016, so his wife six years later sounds about right. Edwardx (talk) 00:50, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting building with cultural relations, on excellent sources, no copyvio obvious. The hook would work if these facts were in the prose, with a reference, - not only in footnotes. However, I think if the elegy is what the place is known for, why not that? Perhaps the elegy and one film? The image is licensed and shows fine. - In the article - just some suggestions, not needed: The first line has the word church four times, - any way around it? Even later, every now and then it could just be "it" instead of "the church ... the church". - I could imagine to first have basic history (built when where by whom ...), then description, and only then the poem, in an extra section. Even if you don't want to go that far: consider to first link the elegy in the prose and then speak about it, with a connection to the author. - I am no friend of a quote box sandwiching the text, - perhaps just have the text as a poem quote? - I think the gallery is a bit "mixed", and the lovely painting gets lost in there. I'd normally propose a packed mode, but not for here a gate, there a painting ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt: how about: theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 19:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- ALT2: ... that the Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges, is featured in a 1750 elegy and a James Bond film?
  That's a good idea, but no Bond film is mentioned as yet in the prose. Also: the elegy would need a link (for me, as famous enough to have an article), and perhaps also the film. I understand that the article isn't quite finished. KJP1 would be the one to ask first, anyway. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  @Gerda Arendt: I've taken the relevant prose out of the footnotes. As for the links, I don't believe it's necessary for users to understand what's in the elegy, or what it is, before they click through to the bolded article. The bolded article provides more than enough context for the story – if users want to learn more about the elegy, they'll be able to find the link there as well :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 20:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  Thank you for the prose. I disagree, as you will have expected. The bold article is just some church, not interesting without contect. Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard is a wonderfully poetic wording, and for me so interesting that I'd click the church, but "a 1750 elegy" would leave me cold. What I think doesn't matter, though, - I'd like to hear from the authors how they feel about ALT2, and if the article is now as they want it. @EEng:? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  I’ve having some trouble with the transclusion here. I earlier suggested, but it appears not to have been picked up: “DYK that the churchyard of St Giles, Stoke Poges, inspired James Bond, Judy Garland and Thomas Gray. “Inspired” might not be quite the right word…? KJP1 (talk) 21:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  It's a bit catching by great names, perhaps. How would you feel about this?
  
  ~~ALT3: ... that the Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges, inspired the Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard and James Bond~~? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  Works for me. I’ve taken out a comma. KJP1 (talk) 21:39, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  Doesn't that suggest that the entire James Bond franchise was inspired by this church, when it just made one appearance in a film? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  ALT4: ... that the Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges, inspired the Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard? - we could just drop the “and James Bond”? KJP1 (talk) 21:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  ALT4 (only, but not striking others, - someone else could approve those) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have to apologize -- I'll have limited connectivity for the next two weeks while I'm traveling up the Amazon, so I haven't been able to complete the article changes I embarked on, particularly those related to Mr Bond. I suspect I can work him in appropriately, when I'm back. Then perhaps we could have a hook re Gray and Bond both taking time to reflect there, something like that. But it will have to depend on the precise wording of the Bond source material. E Eng 22:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem with that for DYK is that we won’t meet the “New” criteria. But others will know better than I. KJP1 (talk) 16:29, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article needs to be new at the time of nomination. The various bits of content can be old as the hills. E Eng 17:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adding a (?) tick ot keep the bots at bay -- we're still working on this article. E Eng 00:23, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, it's been over a month, and no work has been done on the article since your post. I'd like to suggest that the hold expire on 3 December, two months after the work was to commence. Please let us know your plans. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:36, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Slavedriver. E Eng 02:51, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Im absolutely, positively getting to the today. E Eng 10:14, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've done some, and I'll finish tomorrow. E Eng 06:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done! Now, regarding hooks... The article now has text covering the James Bond bit, so I'd recommend ALT2. E Eng 04:38, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the additions. In ALT2, we just have "1750 elegy" which would leave me cold, - a link would be minimum. About the same for the film. The hook says nothing about the subject besides location and older that 1750. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:53, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know what you mean by says nothing about the subject besides location and older that 1750, but as you know, the new hook criterion is likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest. Here, the contrast between 1750 and James Bond provides the intrigue. E Eng 16:17, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Why would an old elegy intrigue if not this famous one. For ALT2, without any help to that information, you'll need another person to approve. If you link the elegy, I'd be ready, but would also like to know what KJP1 thinks. It seems to be granted that everybody knows James Bond and would be interested in a related church, - isn't that strange ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again, its the facial incongruity between the 18th and 20th centuries. Also, this way we pull in both English Lit aficionados and spy movie fans. And while we're on the subject, I tend to be against links in hooks other than the bolded link; if people aren't quite sure what a term or reference means, they can link on the bolded link and find out from there. E Eng 16:47, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I hear you and you may find one willing to approve that.

ALT2a: ... that the Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges, is featured in the "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" and a James Bond film? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I’m leaving this one to User:EEng but I cannot remotely see the point of obscuring the reference to Gray’s Elegy. KJP1 (talk) 18:53, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2a is fine as well. The important point is to juxtapose something stodgy-sounding (an elegy) against Cool Brittania James Bond. E Eng 19:04, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New reviewer needed to check ALT2a. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Approving Alt2a as that sounds good to me. Onegreatjoke (talk) 15:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possible use

[1]

KJP1 (talk) 22:30, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of things

EEng - On the issue of suitably scholarly cites for the churchyard/elegy claim, I get your point absolutely. I've now replaced them with a cite, and quote, from Robert Mack, Gray's most recent biographer. He's a professor at Exeter and it's published by Yale, so the credentials are strong. I hope it meets the need. Where we don't agree is over the image of Mrs Bond's grave. I don't understand why it can't appear in the article? I appreciate that the film prop is no longer at St Giles, but many articles reference and illustrate things that are no longer in their original positions. For example; the articles on the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, the Parthenon and Xanthos are all illustrated with images of sculpture now located in the British Museum. If the concern is that readers may be confused, I'd be happy to expand on the point to make clear the fictional status of Bond and Mrs B. I'm not so fussed about the DYK, although I think a hook along the lines of "DYK that the fictional spy James Bond visits the grave of his wife at the Church of St Giles, Stoke Poges in the opening sequence of For Your Eyes Only, is actually better than any I suggested, but I would like to retain the image in the article. Can you let me know what you think. KJP1 (talk) 10:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The new source is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind, but I'd be interested to see a fuller excerpt from Mack -- might let us make the article's treatment of the question more smooth. I'll also explain my thinking re the Bond image more fully, but that'll have to wait a day or two. E Eng 20:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No worries - and I’ve got the Mack on order, so should be able to work it up from the Google snippet when it arrives. KJP1 (talk) 05:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be largely incommunicado for about 2 weeks starting this Sunday, so if you haven't got the quote by then let's pick up after that. E Eng 17:35, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded, as the Mack arrived this afternoon, but no rush. KJP1 (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded where? All I see in the article is For let us make no mistake, the churchyard of St Giles at Stoke Poges must inevitably and for all practical purposes stand as the churchyard of Gray's Elegy, which I think is what was there before. I'd like to see (here, on this talk page) his larger discussion of the issue. E Eng 17:50, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is now an entire paragraph on the issue. KJP1 (talk) 18:54, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've started some article changes I haven't been able to finish, nor explain here, because of an interruption. My apologies, and please have patience. E Eng 03:12, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, gotta run, might not be able to get back to this for 2 weeks. E Eng 14:17, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm back from my trip up the Amazon. I'll get back to this presently. E Eng 23:33, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

...except I caught Covid, so there was slight delay. Better now. Stand by. E Eng 00:24, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, done! I added a source and gave it a light copyedit. Thanks for waiting. E Eng 04:30, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other claims

Weak on sourcing but the substance seems to be:

St Mary's, Everdon, Northamptonshire - TG stayed here when his uncle William Antrobus was rector (1729-44). Claim made by Rev. H Cavalier, based on textual analysis. Can't yet find any RS for this.
St Laurence's Church, Upton-cum-Chalvey - again based on textual analysis by William Menzies. This is in the VCH entry (note 3). KJP1 (talk) 09:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]