Talk:Christianity in Iraq

Original Research

This source,[1], National Geographic Magazine, does not state, Christians are suffering from lack of security since the invasion in 2003.. This article is about Christianity in Iraq, not Christians in the Levant.

Also, this sentence, The vast majority of them live in the capital Baghdad and in Mosul, is not supported by the National Geographic article.

Both have been tagged for requests for quotations. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

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Changes

The entire section was written for propaganda purposes. A lot of unreliable sources were added, such as AINA, personal essays, blogs etc. Majority of them were deleted. Also, the section contained a lot of unrelated parts, mainly copy-pasted directly from other sources. The article was probably a target of hostile user who wanted to spread anti-Kurdish propaganda. You are free to comment and propose more edits. Ferakp (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Please explain how AINA is unreliable source and Kurdish news sources such as RUDAW are not? If you think AINA is not reliable then RUDAW news sources must also be unreliable. Please do not remove material again on false pretext, and without explaining why the source is not reliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.92.17.129 (talk) 19:41, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Rudaw is also not a reliable source, you are free to delete all those sections which use Rudaw. AINA is absolutely not a reliable source, it has been discussed several times on Wikipedia. Read WP:RELIABILITY page to understand the criteria.Ferakp (talk) 23:15, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

Dear user 81.92.17.129.

Sources you add are unreliable and are not possible to user as sources. Also, many sections you have added are not sources at all and they need usually multiple reliable sources, as they are very high claims. Ferakp (talk) 10:24, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Ethnicity and religion

It appears that there are editors who do not clearly understand the different concepts/categories of ethnicity on the one hand and of religious affiliation on the other hand. Kurds, Assyrians, Armenians, Arabs constitute ethnicities. "Christian", "Orthodox", "Syriac", "Catholic", "Chaldean", "Evangelical", "Muslim", "Sunni", "Shia" et al are terms for religious affiliation. While there apparently are empirical associations of concrete ethnicities with concrete religious affiliations, a serious article must not confuse the the two different concepts/categories. Please watch the language in editing. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 10:49, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

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Edits

The user added a lot of claims using unreliable sources such as AINA and Medium. Also, user involved in cherry picking and misinterpretation of sources. Majority of edits were against WP rules so, the only solution was restoring to the previous stable section. Thus, I ask the same user to use reliable sources and avoid cherry picking, misinterpretation of sources and removing sourced content. Ferakp (talk) 03:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Adding two more things to my comment: the user has also deliberately written claims that are not mentioned in his/her sources and also involved in WP:ORIGINAL.Ferakp (talk) 03:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Please give examples of what is cherry picking. Without giving examples of where exactly there is a problem and why you are just vandalizing pages.

And AINA is not unreliable, see here:

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_216#AINA_.28Assyrian_International_News_Agency.29

Please can you comment on the deletions of human rights issues by user Ferakp: @Attar-Aram syria: @Shadow4dark: @GGT: @Opdire657:@عمرو بن كلثوم:@Beshogur:@213.74.186.109:

AINA is just one of the sources you use, there are other sources like Medium.com.
One of your edit was duplicate.
Hasakah looting is using Medium.com as a source, which is not reliable. Another problem is that it's in Syria, not in Iraq which means it doesn't belong to this article.
Problem with your Helena Sawa paragraph is that, you didn't add everything(cherry picking). Your source says that the case is not solved and the another problem is that it's from 1998. When I added incidents to the article (for example to the Iraq section), I dropped all incidents that occurred before 2003. This is because Iraq before and after 2003 are not same. Also, incidents like this are less relevant than others. If I add similar incidents like this to the Iraq section, the article won't be readable anymore. That doesn't mean you can't add it to the article, you can add it by just simply making a new section for incidents before 2003 (my opinion).
Your The New York Times reported that after Christians had to flee.. edit is not related to the 2011 riots at all. It's not also supporting your claim. What you wrote is simply WP:ORIGINAL and cherry picking.
You have added an essay about 2011 Dohuk Riots while it has its own page 2011 Dohuk riots and it was already mentioned shortly.
You are cherry picking, involving in WP:ORIGINAL, deliberately misinterpreting sources and using unreliable sources. That's not all, you are pinging users who had previously problems with my edits(2015-2016) which means you have very likely been here for a while and either blocked or socketpuppeting.
Despite that, I am ready to help you with your edits.
Ferakp (talk) 00:22, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanations. I will check about medium.com. Consensus is that AINA is reliable source (link above). Finding out about your previous conflicts with other users needs only a simple wikipedia search. --87.189.128.73 (talk) 19:27, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Problems with newest changes

Dear user 87.189.128.73,

You had following problems with your edits:

[2]: This is already mentioned above in History and Post-war situation sections, more neutrally. It's a very big claim to say "Kurds took their land "and even their daughters". You are talking about all Kurds, be careful. Who exactly took Assyrians land, which tribe, militia or groups are you talking about? Tor Abdin is in Turkey not Iraq. You can't add Turkey-related incidents to this article.

The source is professor Martin Bruinessen, an established authority, and the sentence refered to one city (only to the Kurds at that city).

[3]: 1) Again, you are not clear here too. "Kurds seized their land" is wrong, you need many reliable sources to support such claim. Your source is written by Michael Youash who is secretary of armed militia. Your source says: Many ultimately became refugees because Kurds had seized their lands and the Kurdistan Regional Government would not implement any decisions requiring the return of land to original Assyrian inhabitants. and it's based on Youash's own research, which is simply based on two interviews and synthesis: These comments represent a synthesis of the types of comments made by Assyrian refugee families interviewed by IDSP over two weeks across Amman, Damascus, and Beirut.. Wikipedia doesn't allow WP:SYNTH and Youash is a secretary of armed militia(not reliable at all). I am not however going to delete it, I will edit it to be more neutral.
2) This is original research and it's not allowed -> Many incidents of Kurdish authorities discriminating against minorities were reported in 2007 when minorities were arrested without due process, services were denied to some villages and schools pressured to teach in Kurdish.

It is not OR, it is from M. Youash.

3) Other attacks against Assyrians according to a US DOS country report include rapes, abductions of young girls, murders, attacks on Churches and clergy, cultural and linguistic persecution, and land expropriations by Kurds. Your state.gov source doesn't talk about abduction and AINA is not a reliable source. Rape incident is still not solved and it doesn't belong to the section you added. The state.gov doesn't also talk about destroyed "churches" at all.
[4]: This is clearly duplicate, it's already mentioned above.
[5]: This edit has many problems: 1) ..Kurds were "responsible for most of the atrocities committed against the Assyrians.. This claim has been refuted by a numerous of sources. For example, this claim had been added to Assyrian genocide article but it was later deleted due to its conflict with other sources.

it should not have been deleted. When reliable sources disagree, then both views should be mentioned.

2) The Patriarch of the Church of the East is not related to this article and it's history. 3) In more recent times, northern Iraq, the area of "ancient Assyria, Kurdish expansion has come at the expense of the Assyrian population". You reliable sources to support this claim. 4) Due to both Arab and Kurdish intimidation policies, especially on the part of the Kurdish Democratic Party, the Aramaic speaking Christian population has been much reduced. Source for this? Other sources in this article disagrees with your claim. 5) It was reported that Kurds have raised impediments to acquisition of international aid for development, attempted to prevent the establishment of Aramaic language schools and prevented the establishment of Christian Assyrian schools, You need a source for this claim too and this is almost duplicate, it has been shortly mentioned above. 6) There were also attacks on Christians by both Arab and Kurdish Islamists groups such as IS and the Kurdish Ansar ul-Islam IS is not a Kurdish Islamist group and Ansar al-Islam doesn't exist anymore, and it has never been active in Assyrian populated areas...Ferakp (talk) 02:30, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Needs to Be Flagged for NPOV

I don't have a horse in this race (I'm an American of Spanish/Latin-American origin), I was merely interested in the topic of Christianity in Iraq, but I found a serious anti-Kurdish bias throughout, particularly in the History section. I'm not sure how to flag an article for NPOV (I've looked but I haven't found a simple how-to and don't want to mess anything up), so if anyone could help or offer suggestions I would be really thankful. I'm including below the first paragraph of the History section to illustrate what I'm talking about:

"In the period prior to the establishment of Abbasid rule in AD 750, pastoral Kurds moved into upper Mesopotamia from Persian Azerbaijan, taking advantage of an unstable situation. Cities in northern and northeastern ancient Assyria were raided and attacked by the Kurds of Persian Azerbaijan, "who killed, looted, and enslaved the indigenous population", and the Kurds were moving into various regions in east of ancient Assyria. The chronicler Ibn Hawqal spoke about the state to which the region of Shahrazoor had been reduced, describing it as a 'town, which was overpowered by the Kurds, and whose environs as far as Iraq had been enjoying prosperity'. Another contemporary source described the region of Adiabene thus: '[T]he plain of Hadyab was entirely inhabited by the Nestorians but the Kurds have occupied it and depopulated it of its inhabitants'.[15] Later, the Seljuks invaded Mesopotamia with the support of Kurdish chieftains and tribes. They "destroyed whatever they encountered" and captured and enslaved women. Mosul, historically a Christian city, was repeatedly attacked. The historian Ibn Khaldun wrote that 'the Kurds spoiled and spread horror everywhere'.[15] In time, Armenia and Assyria became "Kurdistan".[16] From the late 13th century through to the present time, Assyrian Christians have suffered both religious and ethnic persecution, including a number of massacres.[17] Northern Iraq remained predominantly Assyrian, Eastern Aramaic speaking and Christian until the destructions of Tamerlane at the end of the 14th century, when the ancient city of Ashur was finally abandoned by the Assyrians after a 4000-year history. Tamerlane rewarded the Kurds for their support by "settling them in the devastated regions, which until then had been inhabited by the followers of the Church of the East."[18] The Assyrian Church of the East has its origin in what is now South East Turkey and Assuristan (Sassanid Assyria). By the end of the 13th century there were twelve Nestorian dioceses in a strip from Peking to Samarkand. When the 14th-century Muslim warlord of Turco-Mongol descent, Timur (Tamerlane), conquered Persia, Mesopotamia and Syria, the civilian population was decimated. Timur had 70,000 Assyrian Christians beheaded in Tikrit, and 90,000 more in Baghdad.[19][20]" Mpaniello (talk) 00:11, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Rise of Islam

Non-neutral heading replaced. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

That section of the article is pure garbage; its only cited source is an anti-Kurd author from the 1980s. Kurds didn't raid Upper Mesopotamia after the rise of Islam. In fact, Kurds were already in Upper Mesopotamia when Muslims conquered the region, as written by Al-Baladhuri (died 892 AD). Arabs fought Kurds in the regions of Mosul.

Mosul

Nineveh and surrounding villages. ^Umair ibn-al-Khiattab appointed ‘Utbah ibn-Farkad as-Snlami giowraor of al- Mausil in the year 20. The people of Ninawa ^ fought with him, but he seized their fort (i. e. the eastern one) by force and crossed the Dijlah (Tigris). The people of the other fort made peace with him on condition of giving jizyah, with permission that whoever preferred, might depart with those who emigrated. He found in the territory of al- Mausil some monasteries the inmates of which secured peace from him by giving the jizyah. ‘Utbah afterwards: conquered al-Marj ^ and its villages, the land of Baihudhra,^ Ba'adhra,^ Hibtun,® al-Hiyanah,® al-Ma^allah/ Damir, and all the strongholds of the Kurds*. He advanced as far as Ban'atha® of Hazzah® and con- quered it. ArezKader (talk) 17:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@ArezKader: Thank you for opening a discussion of this matter. Now, please wait until the discussion has reached a consensus before making any further changes. As to the validity of the content, it is cited to Hirmis Aboona, a noted historian. You, on the other hand, have provided us with a relatively incomprehensible passage of text (complete with oddly placed carets ('^') and registered trademark symbols ('®'), but with no indication where this text comes from. Why should we accept this version over the properly cited version? WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

I'm afraid you are quite mistaken; Aboona is not a reliable historian. I have debunked some of his claims and shown that he has manipulated some primary sources, which I will demonstrate to you later.

Regarding the text I provided, it is from the book *Futuh al-Buldan* by Al-Baladhuri, who died in 892. It's the very first book written about Islamic conquests.

ArezKader (talk) 18:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@ArezKader: Wikipedia prefers to use recent scholarship rather than relying on primary sources such as Al-Baladhuri. As for the reliability of Aboona, you'll have to provide reliable sources (and not just your own research debunking his claims) for us to allow the removal of material cited to him. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

In his book "Assyrians, Kurds, and Ottomans," Hirmis Aboona claims on page 174: "Shaqlawa was one of their centers, where the Assyrian majority had given way to the Kurds; by then, however, only three hundred persons were living in the town.19"

However, upon checking the primary source, Ali Sido Al-Gurani's book "From Amman to Amadiya," or "A Tour of Southern Kurdistan," page 123 reveals no mention of Assyrians being the majority in Shaqlawa. Instead, it states that Shaqlawa had a population of 1,800, with 1,500 being Kurds and 300 being Christians. ArezKader (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Check A People Without a State: The Kurds from the Rise of Islam to the Dawn of Nationalism by Michael Eppel.

Chapter 1. Kurdish Distinctiveness under Arab, Persian, and Turkish Dominance ArezKader (talk) 19:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I will state again: your own research contradicting Aboona is not allowed at Wikipedia. If you can provide an equally valid source (i.e. one written in the modern era of historical research rather than relying directly on sources from 1200 years ago), please do so. If, on the other hand, you feel confident in your own research, I recommend that you attempt to publish it in a suitable journal, allow it to be peer-reviewed, and then we as the Wikipedia community can rely on that peer-reviewed published source to contradict Aboona. But not now. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you blind or you're deliberately ignored my last reply, as I told you check. "A People Without a State: The Kurds from the Rise of Islam to the Dawn of Nationalism" by Michael Eppel.

'Chapter 1. Kurdish Distinctiveness under Arab, Persian, and Turkish Dominance' is partially available online, google it.

And I'll remove that section again cause there are enough evidence to debunk that nonsense section. ArezKader (talk) 20:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

So, we have two sources that may conflict. We must figure out how to resolve the conflict. However, just refusing to accept that there may be a conflict is not how Wikipedia works (and why there is now an administrative discussion of your editing here). WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@AresKader: As I begin to investigate this issue (now that the edit warring has been stopped) I find that your argument is wrong on its face. The text (cited to Aboona) does not claim that Kurds raided Upper Mesopotamia after the rise of Islam, but clearly states that they had begun to occupy the territory before the advent of the Abbasid Caliphate. It does not state how long before, but clearly this text agrees with your argument that Kurds were already present when the Muslims came. What's wrong with the text, then? WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

There's no specific date about when Kurds arrived in Upper Mesopotamia, 100 years 1,000 before Abbasid Caliphate. There's no source to back this claim when exactly when Kurds had arrived in Mesopotamia.

Can you provide me a source for this part?: "Cities in northern and northeastern Assyria were raided and attacked by the Kurds of Persian Azerbaijan, "who killed, looted, and enslaved the indigenous population", and the Kurds were moving into various regions in east of Assyria"

I'm waiting to provide me with a source back this.

About this part: "The chronicler Ibn Hawqal spoke about the state to which the region of Shahrazoor had been reduced, describing it as a “town, which was overpowered by the Kurds, and whose environs as far as Iraq had been enjoying prosperity”.

This is how Ibn Hawqal described the region:

"Shahrazur is a small city tha is dominated by the Kurds, and it is close to Iraq, and it does not have a prince appointed by the Sultan who was in charge of their affairs. He gained it from comfortable living, abundant cheapness, and goodness, as it is completely special in a wonderful condition and appearance."

Check Ibn Hawqal: The Fac of the Earth.

This Part:

Another contemporary source described the region of Adiabene thus: '[T]he plain of Hadyab was entirely inhabited by the Nestorians but the Kurds have occupied it and depopulated it of its inhabitants'.

This is from a 20th century source, here I'll provide you with a scholarly source that claims otherwise.

Check The tribal territory of the Kurds through Arabic medieval historiography by Boris James:

"Between the 12th and the 14th centuries the field of action the Kurdish tribes seems to reduce according to the arabic sources. Let me briefly cite some cities or regions still considered by geographers as Yâqût al-Hamawî (d.1229) or al-'Umari

(d. 1349), as being highly populated with Kurds at that period: Irbil, Tell Haftûn, 'Aqr, the Shahrazûr."

ArezKader (talk) 22:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@ArezKader: I still don't understand what the disagreement is here. The text of the article that you contend with refers to the populate of Kurds in the region prior to 750AD, while the text you cite here to refute the claim refers to the population of Kurds in the region between the 12th and 14th centuries. These are completely different periods of history; your fact in no way refutes the facts stated in the article. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Another contemporary source described the region of Adiabene thus: '[T]he plain of Hadyab was entirely inhabited by the Nestorians but the Kurds have occupied it and depopulated it of its inhabitants'.

This is a 19th century source that doesn't mention when Nestorains made majority of the Plains of Erbil and when and how exactly Kurds depopulated the Nestorians.

Check out this article by Mofek Nesko, a prominent Syriac Christian historian, he translated various Syriac texts from 1st century AD to 6th century AD.

He mention Kurdish Nestorian Christains numerous times, from plains of Erbil to Shehrekurd/City of the Kurds town between Daquq and Kirkuk.

https://www.ahewar.org/debat/show.art.asp?aid=489179

Should we rely on a 19th century source that doesn't provide any other information or a scholarly analysis from a few years ago that he himself translated primarily sources and mention the Kurds in this region? ArezKader (talk) 13:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Mofek Nesko: Jean Maurice Fiey the Dominicans says: Since the sixth and seventh centuries AD, the Nestorians themselves were referring to the regions north of Erbil, which are part of Hadiab, as "Beth Qardu or Beth Qardaya," meaning the land of the Kurds (Assyrian Christian Research, Middle East Studies Institute, Catholic Press, Beirut 1965-1968, Vol. 3, Research 22, 23, and 42). Fiey adds that there was a diocese west of the Lesser Zab called Beth Qourtwaye, meaning the land or house of the Kurds, from which Bishop Oudisho al-Qourtwayni hailed.

-----

Now we have several scholars claim Erbil region was dominated by the Kurds long before Islam, so when did Actually Kurds depopulated their Kurdish Nestorian brothers?

https://www.ahewar.org/debat/show.art.asp?aid=489179 ArezKader (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Some sections of this article are blatantly false

Non-neutral heading replaced. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:12, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Read this: "Timur (Tamerlane), who conquered Persia, Mesopotamia, and Syria; the civilian population was decimated, and the ancient city of Assur was finally abandoned by the Assyrians after a 4000-year history. Timur had 70,000 Christian Assyrians beheaded in Tikrit, and 90,000 more in Baghdad." ----------- For this paragraph, two sources are cited; neither of them says the city of Assur was abandoned. Neither of them claims Timur beheaded 70,000 Christians in Tikrit and 90,000 more in Baghdad. Interestingly, one of the sources states that Timur fought the Kurds and took Tikrit from the Kurds.

I hope someone the read the two cited sources and update the article. ArezKader (talk) 01:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

The consensus of the recent issue

I will create this as the section for debate, as witnessing the article, it seems like Aboona has heavy influence on the section. The only way to see if any other sources conflict his POV, editors must find sources which contradict what Aboona claims.

Do not create an edit in the meantime, place information here to avoid any wiki wars! Volkish Kurden (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2024

Change:"The patriarch Abraham was from Uruk, in southern Iraq, modern day Nasiriya..."
To :" The patriarch Abraham was from Ur, in southern Iraq, modern day Warka (near Samawah),"
Reasons: The author has probably mistaken Uruk for Ur , while both are ancient Sumerian cities, Ur is the one more typically associated with Abraham. It's also correct the Ur is within modern-day Nasiriya, unlike Uruk which lies within the borders of Wraka (close to Samawah). Sajjadalhusseini (talk) 16:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 16:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Qaraqosh / Hamdaniya Wedding Fire Is Another Evidence for Persecution of Christians in Iraq

This wedding fire was clearly deliberate, the Cardinal of Iraq (Sako), other Archbishops were clear talking about it in Arabic and English. The groom was talking about it in videos. Every Christian in Iraq knew that it is not the cold fire-works, rather an action deliberately done. However, the media including Wiki consistently denied that facts, removed many posts suggested that.

This 131 people dying in the heart of the last Christian (lost city) northern Iraq is another form of persecution of Christians in Iraq, while the government's do-nothing policy is not new, but the Militia (deep state) in Iraq has committed that massacre in the form of fire of cold firework. The investigation was done in 1 day only by the government, meaning there is a clear relationship between the militia and the government, committing to the persecution of Christians in Iraq.

There are videos showing the cold fire-works under nylon sheets, plastic bags and the curtain clothes causing no fire. https://www.kurdistan24.net/ar/tag/%D9%84%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%B3%20%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%83%D9%88/country/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%82 This is an official news channel of Kurdistan, they are siding with the Cardinals claim. watch?v=Ra-0n0ubFQc is the youtube of the Cardinal himself talking about it. So please don't tell me that this post is baseless, the media Wiki is basing it's bias upon in fact is. 2.50.150.3 (talk) 05:38, 12 June 2024 (UTC)