Talk:Chipewyan

Irrational close

"This outcome will be disappointing to those who support using the names preferred by the people themselves, and I sympathise with that view. However, as a tertiary publication, Wikipedia follows the usage in reliable sources rather than leading change. That inevitably means that our nomenclature will sometimes lag behind popular usage."

Really? Because I seem to remember this feces-flinging festival of a discussion back in October... what was the crux of that? MOS:IDENTITY. We identify people based on what THEY want, no matter what the sources claim, since they are possibly outdated. But I guess that just applies to the squeaky wheel of LGBT groups, huh? - Floydian ^τ _¢ 18:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The closure exactly follows MOS:IDENTITY. There's a big difference between calling an individual "he" or "she" based on their identity, since every English speaker is familiar with both pronouns, and calling a nation by a name that few readers have ever heard. I suspect that if a person demanded to be referred to by Spivak pronouns, they might get pushback from editors, IDENTITY or not. — kwami (talk) 19:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It went beyond pronouns and it results in BLP articles changing names (getting moved) within an hour of a person announcing that. I fail to see why the policy can be held to one standard for one community of people, but yet to a different standard for another community. The name preferred by the people should be used, no matter what other sources say. Same arguments used in the Bradley Manning debate ad nauseam. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 20:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

So you think we should rename "German people" to "Deutsche volk" and "French people" to "Peuple français"? User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Apples and oranges; we do not use "Duetsche Volk" (German nouns are capitalized, if you were unaware of that) or "Peuple français" in English; Denesuline like Mi'kmaq and St'at'imc and Kwakwaka'wakw and similar *IS* used in English. Your comment is as specious as are so many others, and point to evasion and is just a red herring.Skookum1 (talk) 02:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The editor who started this thread should consult a dictionary about the meaning of the word "irrational". A line of reasoning with which you disagree is not the same thing as the absence of rationality. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:12, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

A line of reasoning which sets aside guidelines (Self-identification, including not using derogatory exonyms) and POLICY (TITLE/CONCISION/PRECISENESS) is highly unreasonable and very illogical and clearly biased - and is a demonstration of your inability to decide anything rationally when your personal bias against the nominator is so clearly on display.Skookum1 (talk) 02:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Since we have accepted Tłı̨chǫ over Dogrib people, Sahtu over North Slavey and so on and so on, I think to suddenly not accept Denesuline over Chipewyan people seems out of the ordinary.-- Kayoty (talk) 04:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:CONSISTENCY has been regularly ignored, or set aside or otherwise rationalized away, in the course of closes like this one. And re invoking COMMONNAME, it's clear that not all of that guideline's points were addressed (or even read?) by the closer, see User_talk:Skookum1/TheOldConsensus#UCN_.2F_COMMONNAME: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." i.e. that numerical counts of sources are not relevant when a name is inaccurate; that section might as well add, though it's elsewhere in the guidelines, when a "most common usage" (here by an underwhelming margin) is also derisive or derogatory in nature, which is indeed the case with "Chipewyan", as its exonymic etymology demonstrates. CONSISTENCY was a cornerstone of the "old consensus" that has emerged in the bulk of RMs other than "this group" of them, which were not closed by the same closers as the mass of others, and has been devalued in favour of a misreading of COMMONNAME. This title is derogatory in origin, and though still official with some bands in Alberta, and re the official languages of the Northwest Territories, still in legal use; but it is out of line with parallel titles e.g. Dane-zaa, Tsuu Tina, and countless others to be found in Category:First Nations and its categories. ****The link provided above goes to a summary of the "old" consensus, which was never codified formally before people drifted away; points of it are currently under filibuster at WP:NCL, which was revised in Feb 2011 to mandate compulsory addition of "people" and "language" to titles which do not and did not need it; attempts to address the points of TITLE and NCDAB and other points above are being confounded by the author of the passage in question, who also was an adamant opponent of all these RMs, and the first to oppose them per the copy-pasted vote in the RM above and in copy-pasted identical votes across dozens of others.@CJLippert:Skookum1 (talk) 06:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• • • • The the juxtaposition of the Bradley/Chelsea Manning case as some kind validation for this, that's so far out of the ballpark and unrelated to names for indigenous people I don't really have a word for how UNDUE it is.Skookum1 (talk) 06:35, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
    • the Squamish titles are also out of CONSISTENCY with their categories, whether it's Category:First Nations in British Columbia or Category:District municipalities in British Columbia, per the MOSTCOMMON use and PRIMARYTOPIC of that name being the District of Squamish (=the town). Similar are the closes for Comox, Bella Bella and Bella Coola and certain others where the PRIMARYTOPIC/MAINUSE *and* COMMONNAME were ignored in favour of unsubstantiated claims that the parallel primarytopics are the people-names that are no longer in use; in both case the peoples use those two terms for the towns where they are located, not for themselves. The obvious meaning of that was discounted and set aside and "no consensus" declared despite ample provisions of view stats and googles......and credit was given to UNDUE comments by oppose votes that the small population of these places somehow meant they were insignificant, despite in fact being the main regional centres in otherwise mostly-empty regions; this RM wasn't the only one that was irrational or where guidelines were used out of context, or not in their full context. All these will have to be revisited by more informed debates in future, but any such action right now would likely be pronounced "disruptive" as upsetting an already-overturned applecart. @Floydian:, @Themightyquill:, @The Interior:Skookum1 (talk) 06:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Kayoty: worth noting that among other parallels here, since you mention Tlicho, is that was moved on Jun 28, 2011, by the same editor who moved this to Chipewyan, with edit comment saying, incorrectly, "per English and CommonName; lit. translation" ..... "Dogrib" is *NOT* a "literal translation" of "Tłı̨chǫ". The "ENGLISH" excuse shows up in native-name discussions/moves all the time, part of that {{systemic bias}} noted on the IPNA talkpage and quite at odds with the current state of Canadian English. It appears that more than a "dictionary" is needed when evaluating "irrational" and also "truth". The same editor also moved other indigenous-preferred endonyms to older/obsolete/disused names, as noted repeatedly re St'at'imc], Nlaka'pamux, Secwepemc, Ktunaxa, Tsilhqot'in, Shishalh, Dakelh, Wuikinuxv and more; all examples of the CONSISTENCY which this close/r ignored and/or discounted, or was just oblivious to. rather than acknowledging Floydian's issues with the close, she did not take the opportunity to change her mistaken close to "do the right thing" as someone quipped about another such endonym RM (which was closed correctly, not wantonly with disregard to modern reality or self-identification as was the case here), she threw a jab about consulting a dictionary about t he meaning of "irrational"; {{Floydian}} was right, as are you and I and others. Being told to take it to move review, where citations and issues/guidelines are not even at issue, only relisting something, is fine and dandy to say, but WP:SHRUG should not be a response to people who dispute a bad close; nor should vilifying them and complaining about their "verbosity" in t he course of an incredibly long close with much "irrationalization" going on. I'm at risk of provoking yet another round of official harassment for speaking my mind, but this, Squamish/Skwxwu7mesh, Tsuu Tina/Sarcee language and Slavey and more are all issues that IPNA and Canadian Wikipedians are going to have to wrestle with in future, as someone unfamiliar with the ground, who was unaware of the surrounding contexts, and been dismissive and even hostile to those who criticize bad decisions, was who closed this, rather than Cuchullain or BDD or Xoloz who closed the bulk of the parallel RMs correctly and rationally. "go consult a dictionary" is just arrogance and smuggery from someone who needs to read up and get with the times, rather than make excuses as to how Wikipedia should remain behind the times because out-of-date sources outnumber (marginally) more modern ones.Skookum1 (talk) 08:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

The original documenters of these people did not record their endonym properly. Their name for themselves is not one word - Chipewyan. It is a compound word: Chi-Pew-Yan (pronounced chee-pyoo-yan) Odonanmarg (talk) 09:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Dënesųłı̨ne

I'm noting the RM discussions above, and they seem to have this page titled as "Chipewyan". I'm not exactly sure what the idea is behind this edit and this edit, but if an explanation were to be provided it might make a bit more sense as to why we're not using the article title to name a group. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)