Talk:Chinese chicken salad

History: suggest change in premise/attribution

I tend to disagree with the seemingly dominant premise that is forwarded in the "history" section of this article, which states: "The Chinese chicken salad may have originated from Pan-Asian cuisine pioneers, such as Wolfgang Puck, rather than having actual roots in Chinese cuisine, as salad is a dish of Western origins." [1] The section of the article provides other theories, such as when it continues to say "However, many 'non-Western' world cultures also have salads of various sorts as part of their traditional cuisines"; but, it nonetheless appears to give much or most of the credit to Wolfgang Puck, as opposed to these other contributions. Ironically, even the book reference "Fashionable Food: Seven Decades of Food Fads" (pg. 109-110) seems to take less significant authority than the attribution to Wolfgang Puck, as well as a book called "Hollywood Dish." Just because Puck may have made a popular version of the salad, or that he has led a prominent career, does not mean that it should be attributed to him or even the Hollywood scene at that time. Indeed, just looking up the topic of "chicken salad history" on the internet will bring several contrary results, none of them attributed to Puck or necessarily to the Hollywood scene of his fashionable time. The origins of this salad are probably not much different than other similar "American" salads, such as the "taco salad" and so on. In fact, I have an older book simply titled "Salads" by Sunset Magazine, which had been re-published from 1937 to my own version's date in 1979, thus far preceding Wolfgang Puck et al. and what Wikipedia calls California cuisine. It's more so attributed to what Wikipedia calls Cuisine of California and not to be confused. Indeed, Sunset's first issue was in 1898! Sunset magazine was transformed primarily after the World War II, when it also started publishing articles about food, travel and so on, much in the style of Better Homes and Gardens (est. 1922). Better Homes published the "New Cook Book" in 1953), with an entire section on such types of salads. Aside from that, I also have an original copy of Lizzie Black Kander's "The Settlement Cookbook" which was published in 1901, also with earlier versions of similar type salads. That's wherein most of these ideas and recipes are founded. Sunset has several chinese-style-chicken salads: Chinese Chicken Salad, Citrus Chicken Salad, Hoisin Chicken Salad, Oriental Turkey Salad and many more just like and including taco salads, etc. Another example would be Hearst Corporation's Good Housekeeping "Book of Salads" (1958) with a Mandarin Chicken Salad as well as other chicken salads with cabbage, mustard vinaigrettes, herbs, etc. Although chicken is most popular, a chinese salad can also include seafood variations and other combinations; that is, aside from ham, won-tons, rice stick noodles/vermicelli etc., all of which add to the diversification and development of this salad dish. By the way, I also don't subscribe to the premise that Puck's restaurant acumen made the salads what it is today. There were many, many restaurants and chefs that contributed to this idea, including successful places like Trader Vic restaurants to a myriad of mom-and-pop establishments. (Ca.papavero (talk) 21:06, 28 June 2012 (UTC))

Noted that as of 01:11, 1 March 2013‎, a user named Muneo21 removed the appropriation to Wolfgang Puck; that's where it priorly read, "The Chinese chicken salad may have originated from Pan-Asian cuisine pioneers, such as Wolfgang Puck, rather than having actual roots in Chinese cuisine, as salad is a dish of Western origins." Ca.papavero (talk) 04:06, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Further editing completed on this article as of Thursday 23 to Friday 24 April 2015, such as with points made in the above. Editing included changes to tone and certain generalizations, therein making it more substantiated, nuanced, articulated and cited. A few changes in word choices were also employed, so as to use American style English (since the dish is primarily American in popularity) and other common food terminology and imagination. Ca.papavero (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Added new sections to the article, per my said notes in the above. This now embellishes the earlier history of the salad, namely showing how it developed not only differently from authentic Chinese and asian cuisines, but from early main course salads and other bound (mayonnaise based) chicken salads in the U.S. This makes Chinese Chicken salads an interesting anomaly in the culinary world, especially with all things salad (or restaurant pantry station) of the culinary/restaurant world. The new additions may well need a few finer editing decisions, such as with punctuation, proper citation styling, sentence structure and so on. So, please make suggestions, if you notice. I'll probably come back, myself. Otherwise, I think most of this article is done and complete, for the most part. I cannot think of any more major things to add. Make a suggestion in that regard, if you can. Ca.papavero (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Many of these citations since cleaned-up, with the addition of others, so as to prevent link rot and standardize form. More attributions to be added to the article, such as found with verification of existing citations. See talk below, specifically relating to Lovegreen's mention of Johnny Kan.Ca.papavero (talk) 05:50, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Citations: failed verifications

A few citations in this article are being verified. In some instances, a source may not support what is contained in the article; otherwise, a source may not support what's specifically being said in the article, but it still contains useful information on the topic.

History reads as of 01 May 2015, "Origins of the so-called Chinese chicken salad are unknown, whereas it's believed to have originated from pan-Asian cuisine (or fusion cuisine) influences, rather than having actual roots in Chinese cuisine. Reasoning for that theory is that green lettuce salad is a dish of primarily Western origins.[1]" This is not specifically in the citation from Martin Yan (2000) Chinese Cooking for Dummies. The work simply states "…Chinese chicken salad, like a number of dishes common in American-Chinese restaurants, is actually a Western invention. Even so, its a simple, classic, and refreshing dish…" Nothing more is said by Martin Yan about the origins or invention of this recipe (dish). The source makes no mention of green lettuce salad being "of primarily Western origins."Ca.papavero (talk) 04:09, 2 May 2015 (UTC) The verification is made against the same edition so cited herein (i.e., Martin Yan, Dummies… (2000).Ca.papavero (talk) 04:14, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

History reads as of 01 May 2015: "Many 'non-Western' world cultures also have salads of various sorts as part of their traditional cuisines. In Fashionable Food: Seven Decades of Food Fads, Sylvia Lovegren writes, 'There are many different types of cold chicken salad in China, although most of them seem to originate in Szechwan. But the Chinese chicken salad being consumed ... by the fashionable set, probably originated in California.[2]" The source by Sylvia Lovegren, Fashionable Food: Seven Decades of Food Fads (verified against the 1995 edition) says nothing about salads in "Many "non-Western" world cultures…" There is a sentence of the paragraph that is missing between the words "...originate in Szechwan. But the Chinese…" A suggestion would be that this reference should be written in the article as "...Sylvia Lovegreen writes, 'There are many different types of cold chicken salad in China, although most of them seem to originate in Szechwan.' She continues 'But the Chinese chicken salad that was being consumed in such quantities — especially among rising young record and film producers on the West Coast — probably originated in California.'[2]" Next, the Wikipedia editor that originally sourced Lovegreen's work has omitted a notable reference made by Lovegreen, wherein the book states, "There is a similar chicken salad, known as so see chicken [sic], made popular at Johnny Kan's restaurant in San Francisco [emphasis added], but Kan's version omits the fried noodles." Further searches, from the internet, seem to validate Lovegreen's mention, if not take it further. Apparently, Johnny Kan (or related interests) has claimed some attribution for the salad; whereas, it's been debated at large. By the way, "Chinese Chicken Salad" also appears in Kan's book, Eight Immortal Flavors (1963), as appears to be confirmed by several internet searches, associating the title with mention of the salad. That book's "forward" was written by James Beard.Ca.papavero (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

History reads as of 01 May 2015: "In Hollywood Dish, Akasha Richmond writes, "Hollywood gave rise to more salads than just the Caesar and Cobb. The 1960s produced the Chinese Chicken Salad, which was made popular at Madame Wu's in Santa Monica. Cary Grant asked her to put it on the menu after eating it at another restaurant."[3] This is an inaccurate quotation and and jumbled paraphrasing of what the author Akasha Richmond said. An online insight to this passage of Hollywood Dish can be seen here for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ca.papavero (talk • contribs) 06:47, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

References