Talk:Cherokee Nation

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Cherokee Seal Image

I am concerned that this seal is a forgery. First, the seal has the word "ᏣᏔᎩᎯ" while the actual real Cherokee Nation seal, visible on the Cherokee Nation government website and on their social media pages, has "ᏣᎳᎩᎯ". These are two entirely different words, and the one on this image is not the actual word on the seal. Further evidence of the forgery is that, in the file page for the seal there is an extensive edit history of the image. At an earlier stage the seal even had the word "ᎠᏰᏝ" which yet again is not found on the actual seal. Thus I am concerned that this image is a forgery. It should be replaced with an actual, authentic image of the real Cherokee Nation seal. 2601:152:C83:5020:B5A6:3F10:1AF5:E155 (talk) 01:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for coming to the talk page with your concerns. I've never looked at the seal that well on the article so bringing it to the attention of page watchers was good. I wouldn't call the image a forgery. The author is not trying to pass it off as an original, in fact they give credit to the original if you open the image. However, you are correct that it is wrong now that I have looked at it. I'm going to WP:BOLD and change it. --ARose Wolf 13:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record if anyone wants to know the actual words are "ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ". In Sequoyah's original syllabary order the "Ꮅ" looked more like a fancy "J". For more you can check out Wikipedia's article, Cherokee syllabary or visit the official website for the Cherokee Nation (https://www.cherokee.org/). --ARose Wolf 13:52, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

EDIT: Whoops, thank you for correcting this, Rose! ~~The graphic on this article has "Ꮃ" not "Ꮤ"; as you point out, it's fine.~~ Social media posts have pointed out that the new Mattel Wilma Mankiller doll [1] has a typo on the seal that apparently reads as "Chicken Nation." Yuchitown (talk) 15:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]

I'm not sure I see the typo. Maybe they are looking at it with low resolution or maybe it is a seal other than the one on the box behind the doll. --ARose Wolf 21:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the one on the box. And I didn't see errors on the seal in this article because I was looking at the version you had corrected—d'oh! Yuchitown (talk) 21:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]

Maybe it was different on the first versions and they changed it but on high resolution I can clearly make out the "ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ". I figured you were looking at an older version so I didn't say anything but I'm really glad the IP brought it up and I'm not sure why someone would alter it and include it in this article. Probably just a good faith mistake for the inclusion but the remake of the seal on commons is perplexing. --ARose Wolf 12:28, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The PNG version was correct and it looks like the error was introduced accidentally when the SVG vector version was made. I've flagged it on Commons; once it gets fixed, we can switch back to the SVG here. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 15:26, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for correcting this, I appreciate it very much 141.161.209.103 (talk) 16:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Section Tribal Heritage Groups: Mount Tabor Indian Community

I'm not sure that much of this section (especially the last paragraph) is relevant to the Cherokee Nation article, or at least to the Heritage Group section. MTIC doesn't consider themselves to be a Cherokee Tribe, and neither does CN (UKB and EBCI don't, either, incidentally). Nor are they of the heritage groups that CN does recognize. MTIC is a community of descendants of several Tribes and peoples, not specifically Cherokee, and already has its own article, and it appears that with regard to members of Cherokee descent, MTIC uses a different set of base rolls which are different from the rolls used by CN in any case. Pyrocatch (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tribes within tribes

The main difference between the Delaware Tribe of Indians, the Shawnee Tribe, and the Natchez Nation (unrecognized tribe), is that the Delaware Tribe and Shawnee Tribes left, and the Natchez Nation are still part of the Cherokee Nation. In the mid-20th century, the last fluent Natchez speakers and ground leaders were part of the UKB, but now (presumably due to blood quantum) they are part of the Cherokee Nation. I don't know of any of other tribes being absorbed by the CN. The Natchez-CN situation is a close parallel to the Yuchi being part of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation. Yuchitown (talk) 14:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. The Natchez Tribe is unrecognized because they were not a separate tribal nation at the time of federal recognition. They absorbed into the Cherokee, Chickasaw and Muscogee long before Gayarré (1854) and Mooney (1899) documented them. Even still I doubt this rises enough to be included in the lead. I concur with the removal of the mention of Shawnee from the lead too. Both are still in the article along with the Delaware. --ARose Wolf 14:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Shawnee and Delaware have their own section. However, the Natchez people (significantly those maintain the Natchez language program, ceremonial leaders, etc.) are part of the Cherokee Nation today. Certainly, there's tons of intermarriage among tribes, but the majority of Natchez descendants are part of the CN today. Regarding, "Cherokee accepted many such nations to be absorbed into itself", I'm not aware of other tribes absorbed into the CN besides the Delaware Tribe, Shawnee Tribe, and Natchez Nation. Yuchitown (talk) 15:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no further evidence additional tribes were absorbed either. As stated the Shawnee and Delaware weren't absorbed and gained their independence/subsequent federal recognition. And to clarify, all of these tribes are distinct culturally. The absorption I am discussing is political. Because we are dealing with individuals which constitute large tribal entities there is no way of saying that all identify with any of these particular nations culturally. That is, however, a personal decision. We know that politically, for the sum (majority) that settled in the Overhill towns, their descendants are citizens of the Cherokee Nation today. The question is not whether this belongs in the article. It is whether this rises to the level of being mentioned in the lead. Fully three sections of this article discuss the Freedmen in relation with the CN in great detail. Only the one section mentions the Natchez. --ARose Wolf 17:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Innumerable historical tribes are now parts of current federally recognized tribes, and they often do get a brief mention in the intro. Why I care that the Natchez are mentioned in the intro of this article is that increasingly numbers of groups claim the identities of historical tribes, and that a distinct the cultural core of the Natchez people exist today (as evidenced by their language program) and are citizens of this specific federally recognized tribe (just like Yuchi are mentioned in the intro of Muscogee Nation). Yuchitown (talk) 17:26, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't necessarily oppose nor will I remove if you re-add but I think it shouldn't be more than what was already there. I think we move into the realm of giving one topic more weight than others as determined by the content in the article body if you do. Again this is not related to a subjects historical, political or cultural relevance only what is written in the Wikipedia article. If the section on the Natchez were to be expanded in the article to equal that of other topics discussed in the lead I can see the unequivocal justification for additional content in the lead. --ARose Wolf 18:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good! Yuchitown (talk) 18:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and restored. --ARose Wolf 18:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]