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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Active Service?

Has the J-10 entered active service with the Pakistani Air Force yet? I mean, they should have a few planes by now for operational testing but it's as if there's a drought of information regarding what the Pakistanis are doing with their J-10s. (Psychoneko (talk) 12:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC))

You must be confusing J-10 with the JF-17. PAF has 8 JF-17 already (some people say they have 16), they are "small batch production" aircraft (not production aircraft but not prototypes). They've been doing flight testing since 2007 and weapons integration since 2008, first squadron due to enter service later this year. Hj108 (talk) 13:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning up the article

I messed around with the layout, does it look any better? I want to clean up the engine section first, it is full of stuff that can be deleted or moved to the WS-10 article. Hj108 (talk) 12:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

OK so far, perhaps the speculative radar section could do with a cull after the engine section! MilborneOne (talk) 13:08, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Done. Moved all the rubbish in the Engine section to the WS-10 article, so I'll have to clean up that too. Need sources for it though. Deleted all the random radar stuff in Radar section. How does it look? Hj108 (talk) 15:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Looks a lot better, thanks for the hard work - want to try and have a go at some of the rubbish in Electro-optical systems! MilborneOne (talk) 17:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Done. Also sorted out the ECM and Airframe sections. Hj108 (talk) 15:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Re-written the HUD and flight instrumentation sections. There's just the development section left... Hj108 (talk) 11:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

NATO Reporting Name?

There is no mention of it in the article. Does it not have one? It would be unusual, since NATO assigns names to pretty much all Russian and Chinese aircraft, even if they have an official name of their own (for example, Russia's Su-47 "Berkut" is still given the name "Firkin", and the Ka-50/52 "Black Shark"/"Alligator" is still called "Hokum A/B"). So doesn't the J-10 have one, and if not, is there a reason for that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.136.240 (talk) 03:57, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Nobody knows, but there has been some discussion on the internet about it. Some believe NATO names are no longer being given. Others say that just hasn't been released by insiders yet.
Hj108 (talk) 13:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
ASIC (not NATO!) reporting names are still being given out, it just seems they're a lower priority than they were in the [insert qualifier here] old days. For instance the Yakovlev Yak-130 has been assigned the reporting name Mitten. So, perhaps the J-10 will get a name one of these days. (A lot of would-be pundits in threads on defense forums I've seen are, tongue-in-cheek, suggesting that Fanboy might be appropriate.)- The Bushranger (talk) 13:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
That would be hilarious. But my understanding of the purpose of assigning code names is that they were given because the Soviets/Chinese usually did not assign names of their own. The Yak-130 has no name other than its designation number, but the J-10 has "Vigerous Dragon" and "Vanguard", making a code name unnecessary. That is not a guarantee that no code name will be given though, since some aricraft have been given code names in adittion to their official ones (e.g. Su-47 Berkut was given "Firkin" and the Ka-50 Black Shark was given "Hokum"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.195.124.109 (talk) 03:48, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
The system was nothing to do with not having names - during the cold war the official designations were not even known by the west hence the need for a code name. MilborneOne (talk) 18:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Source on J-10 exports

China intends to export the J-10 after developing an upgraded version: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/09/30/332905/chinas-avic-steps-up-sales-push-for-fc-1-j-10-fighters.html --Hj108 (talk) 11:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Underpowered?

The thrust to weight calculation seems to be a bit off.

Loaded weight: 40,785 lb Thrust with afterburner: 29,101 lbf thrust/weight: 0.71, not 0.98

Hcobb (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

No reliable weight figures have been released, sources differ. Where figures are stated, the aircraft's configuration to achieve that weight (amount of fuel, weapons, etc.) is not known. Until a reliable number for empty weight + full internal fuel weight is found, it is pointless to try calculating a reasonably accurate thrust/weight ratio.
--Hj108 (talk) 20:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

CCTV comparison of J-10 and F-16C/D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XSq8wBmw_g

Summary:

J-10 and F-16C/D are on par with Avionics (generation, with J-10 leading slightly), and cost of purchase and maintanance (although F-16 is stated to be slightly Cheaper)
F-16C/D is superior to J-10 in BvR engagements * J-10's radar is less advanced as the F-16C/D, and lacks the range and simultaneous target tracking
J-10 is Superior to F-16C/D in terms of Maneuverability
F-16 is Superior to J-10 in terms of mission capability and readiness(i.e. extreme environments)

"Important note here is that J-10 apparently cannot operate under extremely hot temperatures, and cannot operate in extremely cold, and or snow/icy environments that F-16C/D can. This is by the state media, so it should count as some weight. I am not sure about the exact data as my Chinese isn't that good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.21.176 (talk) 01:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Crash rumours?

Part of the text says, "the rumoured crash has been denied...", but there's nothing to indicate what crash or rumours of crashes is being referred to. - The Bushranger (talk) 02:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Whats this then? http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2010/03/j-10-down.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.21.176 (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Export version designation

Hoping to head off a possible edit/revert war at the pass, I did a bit of googling, and found some interesting results. It seems there's a Yaesu antenna tuner(!) named "FC-20", and "FC-10" includes a Chinese fluorochemical alcohol company(!!), so I refined things a bit...

  • FC-20 228,000 hits, "FC-20" China 16,200 hits; "FC-20" China aircraft 7,000 hits
  • FC-10 338,000 hits; "FC-10" China 22,200 hits; "FC-10" China aircraft 1,630 hits
  • FC-10A 4,290 hits; "FC-10A" China 563 hits; "FC-10A" China aircraft 28 hits

...however confusing things is the claim I saw on a Pakistani defense forum, that "FC-10/10A" refers to the export J-10A, and "FC-20" to the export J-10B...

It seems that, until the Chinese actually start telling people what they call the export version of their fighter (which might help their sales!) "FC-20" is most likely to be the correct designation. - The Bushranger (talk) 13:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Protection

I have protected the article due to the edit waring over numbers in infobox, can editors please discuss and gain consensus on this talk page, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 06:55, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Protection removed following talk page consensus below. MilborneOne (talk) 11:05, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Sinodefence.com

I've raised the issue of whether or not Sinodefence.com meets WP:RS at WP:RSN. Once the community has decided whether or not that source can be used there should be no reason for edit warring over its use here amd hopefully protection can be removed. Mjroots2 (talk) 05:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Sinodefense.com was being used as to reference the number built as 168 to 196 at http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp :
  • The J-10 was first flown on 22 March 1998, with six prototypes produced for flight tests.
  • The initial batch of 100 examples in both single-seat and two-seater variants were delivered to the PLAAF between 2004 and 2006

So if it is a reliable source (although I doubt it as it is a WP:SPS) it can only support a build number of 106 I cant find any mention of 168 or 196 in the article. MilborneOne (talk) 10:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I reverted NoBiasPlease's edits primarily for this reason. He mentioned there were 6 regiments in service although the supporting reference only mentions three regiments so there is no way, 168-196 examples could be in service (going by the article and nothing else). Although, it's pretty apparent that said user's account is a conduit for PRC-fanboyism and when said user doesn't get his way, he resorts to personal attacks and edit-warring. Vedant (talk) 16:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
So this is what caused all the fuss at RSN? I believe when citing Chinese air force equipments, there are better sources than Sinodefence. Seriously did anyone even bothered to consult Janes and DOD intelligence reports before dwelling whether Sinodefence is reliable and open another can of worm on how to conduct PLA research as a whole? J-10 facts changes all the time because it is at best an educated guess, and you can find a million contradicting facts from a million different RS. It would take ages and lots of PLA expert opinions to actually form a guideline on how and where Sinodefence should be cited, isn't it better to try a better source?
The bottom line is that Sinodefence is very notable, but not always infallible/authoritative when you're researching Chinese air, naval, and missile power. Normally people use Sinodefence to cite ground force equipments because there are no better sources. But in the context of J-10, you can actually find better sources than Sinodefence. Jim101 (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
You know that the reason this article was protected was because someone (presumably a PRC-fanboy judging by his edits) took great objection to the fact that I provided a citation that gave a number he didn't like seeing. It's only after that he removed the AWST citation and replaced it with one from Sinodefence. I'm not disagreeing that Sinodefence.com is notable and I see that it is referenced in certain congressional reports. I'm just arguing that it shouldn't be used when a more reliable source is available. It's for the same reason that I don't reference other military enthusiast websites with the exception of this one edit. Vedant (talk) 20:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Next time, please provide context and the usage of source before bring in a discussion at RSN. I defended Sinodefence on RSN because it has been noted to be a very important source when conducting research on PLA, specifically the ground forces, thus declaring it as not reliable for all cases is completely wrong. But in this case, given J-10 is covered by better source than Sinodefence, Sinodefence in this situation is not reliable. Jim101 (talk) 20:18, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Next time, please review who actually brought the issue up on WP:RSN because it wasn't me. As you can probably tell by my contribution log, I do not edit many ground forces related articles and as such am not in a position to comment whether Sinodefence is or is not a reliable source for those matters. Regardless, your argument is logical and I would be inclined to agree with it, though I'm not sure why you're directing it at me. Vedant (talk) 21:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Not directing at you, but directing at the entire party involved in the dispute. RSN discussion on Sinodefence needs input and context from the dispute here to actually make some logical sense. Jim101 (talk) 21:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
So add it. Carping about it here really isn't helpful, and doesn't come across very well either. - BilCat (talk) 21:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I did, now just waiting for response from the dispute here. Jim101 (talk) 21:38, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
OK, good, and thanks. - BilCat (talk) 21:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Remember reading from several sources that the first 50 J-10 fighters was in service years ago, so the number 55 seems far to low to me. Walle83 (talk) 21:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

That's probably true given that its active duty status was disclosed about 4 years ago. Even if they manufactured 20 aircraft a year (which in itself is a low estimate), they would have around 100 aircraft by now. However, given that this is WP:OR and/or speculation, I don't think it's correct to include it. Vedant (talk) 23:08, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

This paper, which cites a Jane's estimate published in 2008, gives a number of 80. I think this number is as reliable as it can get. Jim101 (talk) 19:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

That's fine, I've no problem with this source. I think it should also be used on the JH-7, J-11, Su-30 and PLAAF articles as well as it seems to be a more recent number. Vedant (talk) 22:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I took the liberty to be bold, and changed the number on J-8, Su-30/Su-30MKK, KJ-2000, and J-11 according to the Jane's estimate. Correct me if I'm wrong. Jim101 (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal of non-neutral references

The first reference above, titled "J-10C Ground Attack Aircraft", claims "It appears that the J10 does not perform as well as the Su-27 for air combat, so the Chinese are reconfiguring the aircraft as a fighter-bomber." I don't see how this article can be accurate when it includes such speculation in its conclusion, how can the author know how the J-10 performs if the aeroplane has only been seen flying in Chinese news agency videos, a flying display at the Zhuhai Air Show and in photographs by Chinese enthusiasts?

The second reference, "China tries to hide J-10 fighter crashes", states that "the pitfalls of reverse engineering without paying royalty and truly understanding the technology are high accident rates, a fact that China has hushed up with its lack of media freedom." Firstly, nobody except the manufacturers and the Chinese military know how much of the aircraft is reverse-engineered and how much is Chinese-designed and the article does not elaborate on this. Secondly, claims that the aircraft's development was assisted by Israel (cite: Richard Fisher's article stating the FBW system was developed by Israel) indicate that the Chinese must have paid the Israelis for their assistance, not simply reverse-engineered foreign systems "without paying royalty" as the article states. Thirdly, the article cites "StrategyPage.com" as a source and my above comments indicate this also is not a reliable reference. Fourthly, the article cites the website "FighterPlanes.com" as a source, which appears to be an amateur website claiming in its J-10 article that "Some US military analysts believe that J-10 could pose a serious challenge to the F/A-18E in terms of maneuverability" but the defpro.com article doesn't mention this, rather it claims that the aircraft is badly designed.

I believe the above two references should be removed and more respectable references found. --Hj108 (talk) 17:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Well it seems that the 'experts' all have contradictory view on this plane. We have to face the fact that there is very little data out there on this aircraft because the Chinese are not giving any. Just try to find a updated photo of the cockpit on the internet. The data in this article are mostly outdated and speculative we don't know what improvments there has being made over the year's on the plane just like in the west each bagde of production is an improvment on the previous. The data in this article are 5 to 6 year's old and may not reflect on current versions of the J-10. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.214.42 (talk) 10:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Specifications Change

I'm changing the specifications to those in this picture: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?172920-J-10-fighter-enters-international-market-at-40-million/page4 Most of these pictures have been corroborated by other news reports, and I'm fairly sure that these details are correct. Instr (talk) 12:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/dti/2010/01/01/DT_01_01_2010_p65-188015.xml&headline=Chinese%20Chengdu%20J-10%20Emerges

This article by Richard Fisher corroborates the length, width, and combat radius figures. They're not as extreme as the China Defense Mashup ones, but consequently they're more reasonable, as well as being superior to the very low 550 km figures some Western sources provide.

As of now, I'm going to try to revise the thrust-to-weight ratio. Instr (talk) 12:41, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2009/11/j-10-and-4th-generation-news.html

Includes "normal take off weight", which I assume is loaded weight. Matched by pictures. Instr (talk) 13:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately forums and blogs are not reliable sources of information. If you can find this information elsewhere from more reputable sources then it would be more appropriate. -Nem1yan (talk) 13:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Let's please discuss this here before an edit war breaks out. The length, width, and combat radius information are provided by Richard Fisher, the defense analyst. As far as the other material goes; the forum is a direct link to a picture of a placade at a Chinese aviation museum outside Beijing. The third picture is from Chinese government information provided with their August 1st airshow team. If you want me to hunt down the primary material instead, I can go to that. 24.90.32.167 (talk) 16:03, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
The information from aviation week is fine, but the blog source cant be used. Also if you could find a better image of that poster (one that showed the entire poster instead of just one section) it could be added to the page. -Nem1yan (talk) 03:40, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Fake footage

The section about the faked footage isn't directly about the J-10 aircraft. It may warrant inclusion in the air force article - if it was their fakery - and / or the television channel which aired it. I have removed it. (Hohum @) 21:54, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Originally I was more for keeping it, but you have a point. It isnt really all that notable either way. -Nem1yan (talk) 21:59, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
How about some advice on where to put the material before deleting it. The 2011 in the People's Republic of China timeline is linked to here currently. Benjwong (talk) 03:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
As (Hohum @) suggested it should either be included in the air force article or the television channel that faked it. There is fake media of Su-37s and Su-47s taking down Raptors but that certainly isnt worth noting in the F-22 article. Also every scrap of media isnt exactly notable. The video clip in question wasnt even of high quality, practically anyone could scrap together that film. Unless there is information showing that Chengdu was involved in creation or distribution of the clip then there is no reason to include it here. -Nem1yan (talk) 03:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Leave the BS out of PLAAF and stick it to CCTV. Please note the chinese proverb: "黑狗偷吃，白狗当灾". A civilian might have produced that crappy/fake video clip but was there any direct involvement from PLAAF? And until a reliable source is produced, please keep it on article page of CCTV instead. BTW, this is the not the first time that CCTV is involved in these kind of "masquerading" videos, we know them all too well. Thank you, best and out to all. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 16:51, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Conformal fuel tanks

There are ongoing tests for conformal ful tanks for the J-10.

http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2011/02/chinese-j-10-fighter-with-conformal.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.212.187 (talk) 12:52, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

How is a blog run by "YASIR007.IN@GMAIL.COM" a WP:RELIABLE source? (Hohum @) 13:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
This photo is available in enough places to suggest that they are indeed testing it. I dont know whether or not it should be added without a better source however. -Nem1yan (talk) 14:29, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
All information needs to be reliably sourced. (Hohum @) 15:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Technically isnt the image by itself somewhat reliable? As long as the wording is clear ("images have surfaced of a J-10 wind-tunnel model with conformal fuel tanks") for example. While I agree that sources need to be reliable and of decent quality an "all or nothing" stance with Chinese articles would leave a lot of blank pages, especially since their airforce seems to be explicitly against any sort of formal statements about their business and technology. -Nem1yan (talk) 00:58, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Conformal fuel tanks - how do we know, the problem with using images as a source is we dont actually now what the model represents or what any non-standard feature is and we are assuming that the image is a J-10. All original research. MilborneOne (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The J in J-5/6/7/8/10/20

  • For the laymen out there, please note that:
  1. Fighter aircraft = zh:战斗机 is the term used by the Chinese speaking world-at-large while zh:歼击机 is the term used mainly in mainland China and is often transliterated as "Annihilator" instead of "Fighter".
  2. Interceptor aircraft = zh:拦截机 is the term used by the Chinese speaking world-at-large while zh:截击机 is the term used mainly in mainland China

Another good example to illustrate this type of subtle difference is:

  1. Aircraft = zh:航空器
  2. Airplane = zh:飞机

Since this article is about a China-made aircraft, it naturally has to follow their naming method. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 02:20, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

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Chinese characters

Normal to show in the lead the names of aircraft in the original language but I dont know why all the other names in the article are also in chinese as well, I will go through and remove them soon but thought I would mention it first in case I missed why this article is an exception? MilborneOne (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Dave but I couldnt see much point - but then I have been known to be wrong. Finished a tidy up but it could do with somebody else checking that it still makes sense, removed a lot of guff and tried to make it read better but some bits still need descent references. MilborneOne (talk) 20:24, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

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J-10B

This is not the Super J-10.

Never trust Chinese forum speculation.

The Super J-10 is a twin-engine, 2-tailfin variant of the J-10.

Dark Liberty (talk)

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I agree with the statament.--Bolzanobozen (talk) 14:09, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

4 Sept 2015

Concerning the use of these sources:

  1. http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/j-10b-%E2%80%9Cvigorous-dragon%E2%80%9D-fighter-jets-are-full-set-soon-be-regiment
  2. http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.ca/p/fighters-ii.html
  3. http://www.grandestrategy.com/2009/04/559695923848203-dragons-new-claws-j-10b.html

Typical of articles in the Eastern Arsenal series, (1) makes many claims and fails to say where these are from (); my guess is these are likely drawing from enthusiast sources (i.e. non-expert, and haven't been vetted by experts.) This is a problem since Popular Science isn't a publication which can be regarded as an professional/expert in the topic area. Of the two authors, only Singer seems to have notable publication history, although it doesn't seem to indicate any particular expertise in the Chinese military hardware developments. Lin is complete no-name. PopSci should be used as a jump off point to locate reliable expert sources, not used itself; in other words, if there's something to what it says, an expert publication should have it. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 02:34, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

(2) is a self-published source by a non-expert, and is obviously no a reliable source.

(3) lists its sources at the bottom of the article; they are all enthusiast discussion forums (non-expert, self-published etc.). The whole site just looks like a general topic blog with a grandiose "About Us" mission statement. On the front page there is a section at the top labelled "Evaluation Criteria" with a mark breakdown. On the side, "Recent" articles are listed as:

  • Could Gog & Magog be Underground?
  • Raza Nadim and Asghar Bukhari Lay it on About Chapel Hill Sh...
  • Response to Mazin Abdul-Adhim on Nouman Ali Khan's Khutba
  • GMO Failures & Man's Attempt to Play God

"Popular" articles are:

  • Analysis of the PAF vs. IAF - Air Combat Over the Subcontinent
  • Legal Justice Failing in America: The Case of Nu Science & the Henkel Family
  • Tafseer Explanation of Surah At-Takathur in English
  • Prophecy of the Euphrates Drying Coming True
  • Limited & Superficial Comparison of Air Assets of the PAF & IAF
  • Black Banners From Khurasan
  • The Bible, The Qur'an and Science Maurice Bucaille

grandestrategy.com has no indications of being an expert on Chinese military developments. It's hard to see it as being a reliable source for anything, actually. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 02:34, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

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February 2022

Concerning this edit/readdition by Special:Contributions/119.74.167.46:

1. The additional link to the J-9 article is unncessary per MOS:REPEATLINK; there already exists a link in the body text to the J-9 article a few paragraphs above.

2a. The addition that reads "the idea for this configuration came from the Saab Viggen" is associated with this source. From what I can tell that source says that China developed the dual-canard layout independently, being one of many countries looking at that configuration at the time. Presumably this is why the SITC article Research, Development, and Acquisition in China’s Aviation Industry says the J-10's layout is "Viggen-like", and not something like "Viggen inspired". So the addition seems to be original research (Wikipedia:No original research.)

2b. The addition was apparently pulled from the J-9 article, per the edit summary of a prior edit [1]. There are two problems with this. First, it assumes that Wikipedia is a reliable source which, per WP:CIRCULAR in Wikipedia:Verifiability, it is not. Second, the claim cannot be verified as the J-9 article is completely unreferenced (which is a problem unto itself, a problem that is best not allowed to leak into the J-10 article.)

3. I would also opine that the connection text "But this was clarified by members of the J-10's design team" doesn't work, since what follows is not solely from the design team. The SITC article does not attribute its claims to the design team in its historical overview. With what follows the SITC-sourced part, the connection text is inappropriate where it is, and unnecessary afterward. Perhaps just replacing it with "However" would make it clear that what follows the first sentence is the response.

Given the above, a revert seems to be in order. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 06:45, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

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