Talk:Charles Fox Parham

Dispute Tags

I placed a "dispute" notice here because the assertions that Parham was a KKK member and other charges need a proper and acceptable source to reference to.

The historical accuracy and POV of this article really needs some work. Stating that someone in one of his meetings was the first person to speak in tongues since NT times is riduculously POV.Coffeeboy 19:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't care enough about this topic to hunt out a WP:RS, but I have a well-referenced paper presented at an academic conference (on linguistics) that suggests that is the case. Rather than calling it "ridiculously POV", you might wish to consider that "truth is stranger than fiction". --Limegreen 22:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Much of what people hold as truth is disputed by others: the creation, evolution, that green tea heals all manner of ailments, and that exercise will heal many eye problems. We are not here to dispute the validity of "speaking in tongues"; we are here to write what was said to have happened, as originally written by those who were there. Sources repeating that this is what are too numerous to name. The only way to dispute it is to find someone who said it did not happen at that particular moment, then give their point of view as well. Raina 01:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The validity of speaking in tongues is not in question, it is the claim that this was the first person to have done so in approximately 2000 years. There are plenty of groups that practiced it including the Anabaptists. Coffeeboy 18:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I did not know about the Anabaptists (in fact, this surprises me), but I know that various forms of "tongues" have been practiced for centuries among those of many different religions. Raina 08:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Parham was indeed a member of the KKK. I am going to remove the dispute tag and the npov tags because I rewrote the entire article and gave 6-7 references, including a credible news source. Эйрон Кинни (t) 23:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The issue of tongues is not something that was started in post NT times by the Parham people. The 3rd Century had a group called the Montanists who were the antiquated equivalent group of the Pentecostals. They also had the same issue of confounding scripture with personal experience and elevating them above scriptural and sound objectivity. --Zaphnathpaaneah 02:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC) _______________________

It is good to question.

I had written my comments based upon reading I had done, but the books were not mine. The following are a few Internet sites I found tonight regarding the subject. (I have edited them in order to avoid copyright problems):

1. www.israel3.com/article501.html [Em] 1910, o pastor Charles Fox Parham, . . . membro da KKK (Ku Klux Klan) Translation: "In 1910, Pastor Charles Fox Parham, an assumed racist, became a member of KKK (Ku Klux Klan)"

2. www.alumcreek.org/Bible%20Studies/HSAP.doc "Parham . . . to be part of the KKK."

3. www.spirithome.com/histpen1.html ; other. "Parham . . . was an example . . . problems . . . throughout Pentecostalist history : racism, authoritarianism, and sexual scandal."

4. http://www.jewishdefenseleague.org/pdf/terror_johnson1.pdf "In 1907, he [Parham] was accused of sodomy in San Antonio, Texas, . . . While the charges were later dropped, . . . Parham . . . confession: . . . did not remember what might have happened in his sleep."

5. http://www.bible.ca/tongues-encyclopedia-pentecostal-preachers.htm#parham "In 1907, Parham was arrested and charged with sodomy . . . and lost all credibility. . . ."

6. http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/pentecostal/moralfrauds.html "In 1907, Parham was arrested and charged with sodomy. . . . Parham was also a racist."

7. http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/910.htm "Parham . . . was involved in racism, . . and sexual scandal."

8. http://enterhisrest.org/entry_directions/his_rest_03.pdf "First, . . . Parham’s ministry . . . rocked by public scandal. Then one of . . . Seymour’s . . . workers . . . made off with the . . . mailing lists for [the]publication, setting up her own publication (with the purloined mailing list – still calling it The Apostolic Faith!) . . . . [No more] Seymour-authorized copies of the Azusa Street magazine went forth, . . . attendance fell off and the . . . Los Angeles work fell into decline."

I keep finding more and more references, but I will stop there. Raina 07:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The Ku Klux Klan was in decline from 1868 to 1870, and was destroyed in the early 1870s by President Ulysses S. Grant's vigorous action under the Civil Rights Act of 1871 (also known as the Ku Klux Klan Act), according the Wikipedia .org. The Klan wasn't revived until 1915. According to Wikipedia's bio on Charles Fox Parham, he didn't the join the Klan until 1910. The Klan didn't come into existance till 5 years later.

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= I have been interested in the Klan for years and have read the writings of many authorities on the Klan. One of the things they have emphasized is that from the beginning of the Klan, they have never died out at any time from their beginning. If I have time, I will find some of such writings. Raina

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== The following are exerpts from the first Internet site ("Klu Klux Klan": http://www.iupui.edu/~aao/kkk.html) I came across this morning. I don't have time to do further research at this time, so this will suffice for now. (Emphasis mine)

The section is "The KKK's First Death."

The leaders of the Klan realized that the order's end was at hand, at least as any sort of organized force. It is widely believed that Forrest ordered the Klan disbanded in January 1869, but the surviving document is rather ambiguous (some historians think Forrest's 'order' was just a trick so he could deny responsibility or knowledge of Klan atrocities).

Whatever the actual date, it is clear that as an organized body across the South, the KKK had ceased to exist by the end of 1869. That did not end the violence, however, and as atrocities became more widespread, Radical legislatures throughout the region passed harsher laws, imposed martial law in some Klan-dominated counties, and actively hunted Klan leaders. . . .

Hundreds of Klansmen were arrested but few actually went to prison.

These laws probably dampened the enthusiasm for the Klan, but they can hardly be credited with destroying it. The fact was, by the mid- 1870's white Southerners had retaken control of most Southern state governments and didn't need the Klan as much as before.

When I have time, I will pull out some of my other resources. Raina 16:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

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In continuation of my statement above: It was written here, by an unidentified person, that "under the Civil Rights Act of 1871 (also known as the Ku Klux Klan Act), according the Wikipedia .org. The Klan wasn't revived until 1915." While the above is true, I contend that officially ending the Klan on paper and to the general public did not actually end the Klan. I just happened to run across the following, in two Wikipedia articles, as I was looking for something else (emphasis mine):

. . . . Edward Douglass White (3 November 1845 – 19 May 1921), American politician and jurist, was a United States Senator, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, and the ninth Chief Justice of the United States. He was best known for formulating the rule of reason standard of anti-trust law. Along with Hugo Black, he is one of two Supreme Court justices known to have been members of the Ku Klux Klan.[1] . . . .

. . . .In 1915, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Edward Douglass White fondly recounted to Thomas Dixon that he had been a member of the Klan.[1] . . . .

Raina 15:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

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Truth can be very hard on people. Many churches and church members would rather live in and teach fallacies than truth, yet the L-rd declards that He is Truth. We should, then, value it far above our feelings and discomfort. The page definitely deserves the dispute now. With these edits, done by a nameless person, likely a sock puppet, who has only made two contributions (both to this page)with this number, I join in that dispute.

Furthermore, it was not Parham who started the Los Angeles Apostolic Faith Mission; it was William Joseph Seymour. From William Seymour, an article in Wikipedia:

William Joseph Seymour (2 May 1870 - 28 September 1922) was an African American minister, and an initiator of the Pentecostal religious movement.

Born the son of freed slaves in Centerville, Louisiana, Seymour developed a belief in glossolalia ("speaking in tongues") as a confirmation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As a consequence of teaching this, he was removed from the Los Angeles parish where he had formerly ministered. Looking for a place to continue his work, he found a run-down building in downtown Los Angeles located on Azusa Street, and preached his doctrinal beliefs there.

The result was the Azusa Street Revival. Seymour not only rejected the existing racial barriers in favor of "unity in Christ", he also rejected the then almost-universal barriers to women in any form of church leadership. This revival meeting extended from 1906 until 1909, and became the subject of intense investigation by more mainstream Protestants....

Raina 00:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

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Parham was certainly not the founder of the Los Angeles apastolic mission. It was founded by William Seymour and Frank Bartleman. Bartelman's autobiography, before going off into a ramble about the brethern movement is very clear on the role of Parham, and his doctrine that was in keeping with the views of the KKK. Rick Joyner, in his biograpy of Parham notes that he visited the mission, but it was about one year after the mission was started. He was however a mentor to Seymour. Joyner also notes the KKK connection.

I'll fill in more details once I get all the info together, but it seems to me fairly clear the roles that Seymour, Bartleman and Parham played in the Azusa Street revival, and the formation of the Pentecostal movement.

mykuhl

It seems obvious that Parham was the key influence to Seymour's establishment of Pentecostalism. In addition, it's not right to call this article biased against Parham, merely because it cites information that paints him in an unfavorable light. There is no doubt that Parham was racist and a member of the KKK. I would like to mention that the abuse of the NPOV rule has created only favorable content in articles with varying levels of controversy. It is not right to cry "bias" whenever one sees an article mentioning something factual about someone we like or admire. The Mormon articles on Joseph Smith are perhaps the most extreme examples of this abuse. --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

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Limegreen, I am sure you must mean well, but when you wrote that "William Seymour, having observed the phenomonen in Topeka, took the phenomenon to Los Angeles, but was locked out of the Apostolic Faith Mission because of their rejection of speaking in tongues. This lead to the development of the Azusa Street Revival. When Parkham came to visit Seymour in Los Angeles," it was in error. Reread the history -- it was a different church he was locked out of. When Seymour came to LA, he started the Apostolic Faith Mission, staying there until he died, at which time his wife headed the church. He was not locked out, and the Apostolic Faith Mission never rejected tongues but embraced it. The Apostolic Faith Mission was on Azusa Street and initially contained the so-called "Azusa Street Revival." When Parham (not Parkham) came to visit it, it was he who left it. Raina 16:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I am sure you must mean well. Good faith includes not being too condescending.

If you re-read your original edit of my edit [1], you'll see that you removed the wiki-link to Seymour and removed the link as to why Seymour was relevent to Parham (Seymour having been in Topeka before LA). I'm happy to accept that it was a different church that he was locked out of (I really have no idea about any of this). However, as you are someone who seems very interested in these pages, you might work to add some references to them. Good luck! --Limegreen 23:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry, Limegreen. It was in no way my intention to be patronizing; I have no reason to be so.

When I did my last edit, I was more careful than I was with the previous one, in an attempt to make sure that what was relevant and factual remained.

As I mentioned earlier, the books I had used for research were borrowed several years ago, and I no longer have access to them. I have, however, found several sites (some of which are listed above) on the Internet that say basically the same things.

Parham was just not that important, in my humble opinion, to merit a lot of mentions in historical writings; his importance seems to be limited to only those who wish to make a point with regard to his influence, whether positive or negative.

Again, I apologize for coming across as condescending toward you. Raina 04:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Your last edit worked better, and my only source was a webpage, so I apologize for my mistake. I'm not to familiar with this history, so I can't comment on Parham's significance in the grand scheme of things. As a linguist, his involvement in the revival of glossolalia seems notable, but beyond that I wouldn't know. --Limegreen 06:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem -- and thank you! Raina 23:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

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I have a copy of the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, Regency/Zondervan, 1988. The author of the articles PARHAM, CHARLES FOX and APOSTOLIC FAITH (BAXTER SPRINGS, KANS.) is James R. Goff, Jr. Ph.D., University of Arkansas - Fayetteville; Lecturer in History, Appalachian State University, Boone, North Carolina.

He mentions the sodomy charge, but not the KKK. Apparently, the sodomy charge happened in the summer of 1907 in San Antonio, Texas. The charges were dropped by the authorities.

It is also stated that the bad press against Parham came from a man named Wilbur Voliva, about whom I know nothing.

The bibliography includes a book called Life of Charles F. Parham by S. Parham (1930).

Hope this helps.

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This story gets stranger and stranger. Apparently Wilbur Glenn Voliva and John Alexander Dowie promoted the Flat Earth theory in their Zion City ministry. Both Parham and John D. Lake seem to have had some connection, though it may have been tangential.

How many of the founders of Pentecostalism, if any, agreed with the Flat Earth theory of the Dowie movement, is uncertain. But they must have known about it.

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I have just had a look through James R Goff's, Fields White unto Harvest: Charles F Parham and the Missionary Origins of Pentecostalism University of Arkansas Press, (1988). In it there is referenbce to Parham's racial ideology (particularly segregation and supprt of the Crow laws) which by contemporary standards would be labelled racist however he notes that it was nothing out of the ordinary. Goff concludes that "his concern was paternalistic but, in the context of the day, he could hardly be considered a 'racist' (p 107-108).

Regarding the KKK Goff does not make any claim that Parham was a member although he does state (p 157) that Parham's experience at Asuza Street hardened his views and by the 1920s "Parham felt no qualms at offering high praise for the reorganized Ku Klux Klan ... Parham admired many Klan leaders but considered their efforts ultimately fruitlesssince they lacked a purely spiritual agenda".

Hope this helps.

Mightyfish

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I am always troubled by opinions and speculation being presented as though they were fact. I found very little verifiable information in this article and it immediately presented itself as a citation of opposition instead of an historical accounting. There are too many might have beens, could have beens, and possiblies to give any credibility to this article.

Plagiarism

This former version of the article was plagiarized from http://charles-fox-parham.biography.ms/. So, I rewrote it, with references and footnotes. Эйрон Кинни (t) 00:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It was not plagiarized. I wrote it after consulting several works. Raina 06:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The page content was copied from Wikipedia (which is acknowledged in the small print at the bottom of the page -- actually an image rather than text, however). And please assume good faith, everybody can make mistakes!

--Limegreen 22:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I apologize. I was mistaken, I did not see the fine print. Эйрон Кинни (t) 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you.Raina 04:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The former. Эйрон Кинни (t) 20:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Baiting and switching

I took these comments out:

"For these comments, Parham has been deemed a racist." and "Another widespread belief relating to Parham's racial attitudes is that he was a Klansman."

These comments are reflective of a tactic known as weasaling[2]. The use of the words in a seemingly neutral fashion only to pre-emptively prop up a POV stance. In this instance the stance is decidedly against the data that suggests that Parham was a racist. The facts alone (which are left in the article) are sufficient to speak for themselves, and do not need preliminary " say it ain't so" commentary. --Zaphnathpaaneah 12:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Remove it if you want. It doesn't matter to me, but I'd just like to make clear I was trying to be neutral on that issue. Aaрон Кинни (t) 03:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

This article needs help

I added the Tone Cleanup tag to the "Allegations of Racism" section.

Someone needs to take the initiative and clean up this article. It is too complicated, and the "Controversy" section in particular is long, complicated, contradictory at points, and difficult for someone who is unfamiliar with this topic to understand. I don't have the knowledge to rewrite this article, but someone who does know something about it needs to rewrite it. Also, the "Controversy" section needs to be rewritten from an unbiased point of view, giving both sides of the story but not endorsing either side. The readers of the article don't need to know every bit of evidence for and against either side, they just need to know that there are two sides to the story, and they need to know the basic premise of each side's argument. Right now, it is very clear that people on both sides of the argument have been editing and re-editing this section until it is basically a jumble of nonsense. Thanks, Sherlock (talk) 04:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The real founder of pentecostalism

Beyond any doubt, the racist, gay and pastor Charles Fox Parham was the real founder of pentecostalism. In countries such as Brazil, El Salvador, Mexico, [[pentecostalism] is the second biggest religion.Agre22 (talk) 18:19, 12 March 2009 (UTC)agre22

The above post by user Agre22 is just the sort of unsupported POV that is being discussed here as being a problem: <"Beyond any doubt, the racist, gay and pastor Charles Fox Parham was the real founder of pentecostalism."> This is against Wikipedia's Talk Page Guidelines, which state, "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject," "Stay objective: Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their personal point of view about a controversial issue," and "Deal with facts: The talk page is the ideal place for issues relating to verification, such as asking for help finding sources, discussing conflicts or inconsistencies among sources, and examining the reliability of references."

As to Agre22's unsupported charge of racism, the 1906 revival in Los Angeles, California, (the Azusa Street revival), was begun by a black woman, Lucy Farrow (who had the "tongues" experience), sent, with funds, by Charles Parham from his school, (then in Houston, Texas), and a black man, W. J. Seymour (who had not yet had this Holy Ghost baptism with "speaking with tongues" experience, but did later ), also sent, with funds, by Charles Parham and his school, (at Lucy Farrow's request for help), ; '. Lucy Farrow also returned to preach at the Houston "Apostolic Faith Movement" Camp Meeting, at which "Brothers Parham and Carrothers were in charge," in August, 1906, as eyewitness Howard Goss recounts in his wife's book, The Winds of God , "Fresh from the revival in Los Angeles, Sister Lucy Farrow returned to attend this Camp Meeting. Although a Negro, she was received as a messenger from the Lord to us, even in the deep south of Texas."

As for Agre22's unsupported charge of homosexuality, per revival-library.org : "In July 1907, Parham was preaching in a former Zion mission located in San Antonio when a story reported in the San Antonio Light made national news. Its headline read: 'Evangelist Is Arrested. C. F. Parham, Who Has Been Prominent in Meeting Here, Taken Into Custody.' The report said Parham, about 40 and J.J. Jourdan, 22, had been charged with committing ‘an unnatural offence’ (sodomy), a felony under Texas statute 524. Faithful friends provided $1,000 bail and Parham was released, announcing to his followers that he had been framed by his Zion City opponent, Wilbur Voliva. At the time of his arrest Parham was preaching at the San Antonio mission which was pastored by Lemuel C. Hall, a former disciple of Dowie. The church had once belonged to Zion, but left the Zion association and joined Parham’s Apostolic Faith Movement. Parham pledged to clear his name and refused suggestions to leave town to avoid prosecution. Subsequently, on July 24th the case was dismissed, 'the prosecuting attorney declaring that there was absolutely no evidence which merited legal recognition.' Parham’s name disappeared from the headlines of secular newspapers as quickly as it appeared. There is now overwhelming evidence that no formal indictment was ever filed. There is no record of the incident at the Bexar County Courthouse, as the San Antonio Police Department routinely disposed of such forms in instances of case dismissal." (emphasis mine) Dword2Dwise (talk) 21:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)Dword2Dwise

Hey Dword2Dwise, just to let you know, User: Agre22 was indefinitely blocked back in January 2010 for repeatedly adding POV and original research to articles. So, no need to worry about his POV anymore. Howicus (talk) 22:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

References

Admission of Homosexuality

The assertion that "Parham at first admitted his actions, but then denied them." is disputable, as the reference makes absolutely no mention of this. The only reference made to this incident in Synan's book is: One possible reason why Seymour rejected his authority was the rumour that Parham was a practicing homosexual, a charge often made and repeatedly denied by Parham (footnote #43) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iskuo (talk • contribs) 11:57, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

References

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Charles Fox Parham/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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I am new to leaving comments on wikipedia and i am also largely ignorant on the history of this particular topic but there was some questions that i had from a biblical viewpoint of Charles Parham. Firstly, my understanding is somewhat biased. I am not Pentacostle nor am I Charismatic. I heard in a seminar by Terry Arnold, based on the history of this situation as presented in the book 'Fields White Unto Harvest' by Goff, a different course of events that took place around the introduction of 'tongues' into the christian church. Terry talks about how Parham wanted his bible college students to have the same spiritual experience as the disciples had in Acts chapter 2, in which the Holy Spirit gave them the ability to talk in 'tongues' so that they could express the Word of God to the many different languages that were in the crowd. He believed these 'tongues' to be known languages so that his students would be able to witness the Word of God in foriegn countries. The important part is that, to what i have understood and heard, he did not intend for these 'tongues' to be unknown languages as they are in modern Pentacostle churches today. I'm not trying to present my question with bias, but wanted someone who had a more sound understanding of these events to found out if Parham actually condoned the new 'tongues' that was spreading through the church. Terry says that Parham was "shocked" to find out the tongues was an unknown language. TheNewGuyOnTheBlock (talk) 15:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 15:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 11:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)