Talk:Charles-Amable Lenoir

Year of death

Sotheby's says this artist died in in 1961, Christie's says this artist died in 1940, and we say he died in 1926. So, who has a reliable source that settles this matter? Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Both http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2003/Lenoir/bartoli_engllish.php and http://www.rehsgalleries.com/Charles_Amable_Lenoir_Bio.html which I've used as references state 1926 and mention the biography by Trebbi (in the further reading section) who is one of Lenoir's descendants. Given that (as well as as a general point) I'm inclined to trust the more in-depth biographies over single line listings by the auction houses, thus my use of that date in this article. Obviously more information would be better to settle the score, but I don't speak French to be able to try more localized web searches, nor have I been able to track down a copy of that book to reference it directly. VernoWhitney (talk) 00:59, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

There seem to be some uncertainty about his date of dying, though. Bibliothèque nationale de France just gives us a question mark. Agence Photographique Réunion des Musées Nationaux also gives us a question mark, but explains mayby why Sotheby's says 1961. In the author entry they added Vizzavona François Antoine (1876-1961). The French Wikipedia says he is a photographer. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Here is a page where they let him die in 1903, and in this book it is 1932. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I know it's not as clear as we'd like it to be, I looked through a lot of the sources before writing this piece up. Now I think we can safely rule out 1903 since there's an abundance of evidence to the contrary.

There's this book published in 1907 which lists him with a number of other master artists who "teach several times a week at different academies" and then gives his address in Paris. The Agence Photographique Réunion des Musées Nationaux you linked to says the painting was displayed at the Salon in 1911 (along with thesetwo), so there's some more evidence that he was alive until at least then. That same site also has one from the 1913 Salon [1] and two from the 1914 Salon [2][3]. There are some paintings sold at auction in 1915/1916 where he isn't listed as having died; deceased artists in that same auction are noted as such with dates.

I expect the 1903 date was chosen simply to coincide with the last major honor he received--the Legion of Honour (which wasn't given posthomously prior to WWI). On to the other options: I had thought Sotheby's had chosen 1961 just to make it a nice round 100 years, but your explanation of them using the photographer's year of death could be just as true. Of course all of the above sources say he was alive; proving when he died is a bit more difficult.

In further support of 1926, there's a nice photograph of his statue in Fouras which has it literally carved in stone. Page 48 of http://www.latribunedelart.com/IMG/pdf/Catalogue_Zuber.pdf uses that date as well, and also includes a reference to the book by Trebbi. This and the two bios I cited in the article could very well be all using the book as their primary reference, which makes them all possibly subject to repeating the same error, but that's hard to determine without looking at the book itself.

Now the best source for a different death date I've found online is http://www.mcnaughtfineart.com/euro-lenoir.htm which in turn cites 4 other presumptively reliable sources, but I haven't been able to track down any of those sources to see what they say. Anyways, like I said -- in the absence of further context I'm more inclined to trust the in-depth biographies over briefer ones.

Getting off-topic from when he died, where does fr.wiki say he's a photographer? I saw a redlink for him listed twice at fr:Prix de Rome#Peinture XIXe siècle but that was all. VernoWhitney (talk) 17:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I like the statue! You can't get a reference more solid than that, can't you. By the way, I meant fr:François Antoine Vizzavona as the photographer. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 18:13, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

But all in all, the conclusion is that there is not one absolute reliable source for a specific date. Objectively, we will have to add a line which adresses this, don't you think? Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 20:09, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I had misunderstood the part about the photographer, thanks for clearing that up. I'm of the opinion that the weight of the more reliable sources (including the statue!) firmly supports 1926, thus what I wrote in the article. That said, if you wish to edit in something about the uncertainty, feel free. I can always keep an eye out a stronger source for that detail will turn up and settle the matter one way or the other. VernoWhitney (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering how you were going to work an explanation into the text; using a footnote never even crossed my mind. I like it. VernoWhitney (talk) 13:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

And I didn't know the notes and references could be separated from each other, like you showed here. Thanks. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 15:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Jésus et le paralytique

I don't know this painting, but the more usual form of the title of this subject in English is "Jesus and the man sick of a palsy". Not correcting, though. Awien (talk) 17:03, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

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