Talk:Chandala

Redirect

Chandal is a separate community .Plz don't redirect it to Dalit.Its a wrong redirect.Holywarrior 09:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 17:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[Chandal, Sudras]

Arniban Ssej 10:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC) The Namasudras of Bemgal were called chandal ,this is true .But at that time except the Brahmin-caste all other higher castes were known as SUDRAS. Brahmins told that they have brought them as their servants and later they took or adapted different professions. The HEARSAY GOES THAT THE NAMASUDRAS WERE MADE OUTCAST BY A KING THUS THEY BECAME CHANDAL DUE TO THEIR DEFYING NATURE. EVEN THE SUBARNA BANIKS OF BURDWAN WERE DECLARED CHANDAL OR OUTCAST >SRI UDDHARAN DUTTA BARGAINED WITH THE KING TO RESTORE THEIR SOCIAL POSITION. THESE things may be found IN BANGALIR ITIHAAS ADI PARBA BY DR.N.R.RAY.

LAST ,NOT THE LEAST, THE NAMASUDRA COMMUNITY THEMSELVES HAVE NOT ADOPTED THIS NAME NEITHER HAVE THEY PROPOSED IT.BUT ITS TRUE THEY FOUGHT FOR THE SOCIO-RELIGIOUS BANNING TO BE OVERRULED BY THE THEN RULERS OF BENGAL.

HOWEVER WHO PROPOSED OR IMPOSED THE NAMING IS NOT KNOWN.TO THEIR LEADER THE THEN RULERS OF BENGAL ACTUALLY TOLD THAT THE MATTERS TO BE SOLVED BY THEIR UPPER-CAST COUSINS BECOZE IF THEY DONT ACCEPT , THE NAMING CANT BE SOCIALLY IMPLEMENTAD BUT IF THEY CAN PROPOSE ANY NAME THAT THEY MIGHT DISCUSS WITH THEIR SOCIAL ELITES.

AFTER THE NAME ANYWAY GOT IMPOSED DIFFERENT PEOPLE REACTED DIFFERENTLY. SOME NOTED ANTHROPOLOGIST IGNORED IN THEIR LITERATURE COMPLETELY ,EVEN SOME TOLD ITS A BRAHMINICAL SOCIO-POLITICAL TRICKERY . NAMASUDRAS WANTED THE CHANGE, THEY CHANGED THEIR SURNAMES BUT NOT THE CASTE NAME THEY ADOPTED THE IMPOSED NAME .RECENT HEARSAY GOES THEIR PROPOSED NAME IS NAMASSEJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arnibanssej (talk • contribs) 10:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Is Ezhava very lower-caste in Kerala?

Comparing aborginals of Kerala Ezhava is higher.But, now Ezhava became a progressive community in Kerala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.254.136.112 (talk) 14:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of this article

The article itself describes that this is an abusing term used to marginalise different isolated tribes and also communities.It is a social sanction typical of Indian culture.There is varna and caste classification in Indian society.Those who remained outside it were termed as outcast and were abused as chandala.The article itself maintains that it is a slur. This is Indian version of worst kind of apartheid used by Indian Hindu Kings and Priests or Pujaris .Many communities had been completely mesmerised and pushed to oblivion.

So there cannot be any article or discussion of any population group under this Name .Simply the meaning of word is sufficient. Some communities could manage to regain the permission to be socially acquainted as they were, some could not.They had bear the hatred and apartheid.

If any community be mentioned as such ,I think it should out-rightly be banned. Not only this I would like to ban the article "sudra" also .Under the disguise of religious discourse Hindus actually practice slavery de facto by these words.

Immediate actions should be taken in this respect.Only meaning is sufficient.There may be articles In The Name Of The Communities Not under the Apartheid Banner of "Chandal" or "Sudra" .In the name name of Pseudo-religion Wikipedia should not allow de facto Practice of Theory Of Apartheid -In-Disguise.ThanksRayorpheus (talk) 17:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based in the United States, where we respect the freedom of speech. Your approval for this article is not required, and if you have a problem with that, then I suggest you remove yourself from Wikipedia altogether. We don't need any self-appointed language police here. 2601:647:4F00:3C16:5930:230D:DBB2:F12A (talk) 05:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed 108.39.84.90 (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Then debunk them add a section in this article possibly challenging the narrative the sword of knowledge wins over force any day regarding information. 108.39.84.90 (talk) 04:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Hindu Apartheid

I think there should be one article under this banner and the whole issue of chanadal or untouchable come under it.That is more appropriate.Rayorpheus (talk) 15:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

The Picture

Original source shows two pictures both of Ghasi caste .The person who wrote the subtitle made a mistake .Brahmins brought the Ghasis but not the Chandalas .That error has somehow crept into.So it is better not to use the picture.117.194.205.97 (talk) 09:33, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Vedas?

The article states: "Varna was a hierarchical social order in ancient India, based on the Vedas. Since the Vedic corpus constitute the earliest literary source, it came to be seen as the origin of caste society."

I am note sure about that. Upinder Singh writes: "Although there are no clear indications of the practice of untouchability in later Vedic texts, groups such as the Chandalas were clearly looked on with contempt by the elites."

Ambedkar believed the antyaja in the vedas were not regarded as either impure or untouchable and quotes Kane in his suport

References

It is probably not a great idea to cite Ambedkar because he was a political campaigner on the issue. As for Singh, well, books intended for school use are often considered to be simplistic in their approach and, of course, in the case of India there have been significant issues such as the NCERT controversy. I'm not saying that you are wrong to have doubts but these sources may not be the best to verify the point. We may also have to take WP:NPOV into account. - Sitush (talk) 12:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes for religious text Ambedkar is a horrible source and likely history as well I suggest using literal historical or religious sources instead. 108.39.84.90 (talk) 04:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Mention of dog

I don't see the point of the paragraph about the meeting with a man and a dog. The additional citation doesn't make things any more clear. - Sitush (talk) 12:09, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I completely agree with Sitush; I believe this story is irrelevant in the given context. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:04, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Shaggy dog story

I've just removed this. It has been in and out of the article in the past. I still can't see the point of including some random tale about someone meeting a man and a dog in the road. I've seen the story mentioned in several sources but not one of them explains the significance of it and without such an explanation it is obscure, confusing and pointless from the point of view of an encyclopaedia. Just because something is said does not mean we have to include it. - Sitush (talk) 13:49, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring

An IP has rewritten the beginning, removing referenced sources. I am neither bonded to the article nor well versed in the subject matter; I simply wanted other editors to comment. Ifnord (talk) 18:03, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

"Source"[1] does not support the information, much of it was original research, and Patridge publishing is a self-published source. Article had more unsourced addions in recent weeks. 122.170.21.91 (talk) 18:11, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

• @Ekdalian: I am not getting that why you are frequently disregarding the concerns raised above as visible in your edits.[2] Notion Press and Patridge are indeed self-published sources and thus unreliable. Since your source is printed from 2017 by "Satya Shri", it probably copied Wikipedia in terms of content and conclusion. Thapar's book is not supporting the content either. Read WP:SYNTH. I would also urge you not to add any categories[3] that you can't support with a WP:RS. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 10:27, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Aman Kumar Goel, do you really have any doubt about the content, or else, are you just concerned about the technicality of reliable sources? Other reliable sources can be cited to support the statements. Moreover, a senior editor like Sitush, who is considered as an expert in this subject, and is very particular about reliable sources, has edited the article, and this is the consensus version. I can't really figure out your concern; I sincerely believe, there is no issue with the content; we can add more reliable source(s) for supporting the facts mentioned. I was not sure whether the view of the IP editor is same as yours, and moreover, the heading was 'Edit warring'. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 11:07, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Other uninvolved editors (at least in this particular dispute) are not responsible for your edits. No single person WP:OWN any article here. I came here when I was reverting an editor who had made a number of problematic reverts across many articles[4][5][6] and also this article. Sources are self-published and thus unreliable. Issue is that we need reliable sources on subject and should add content without asserting our own assertions. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 12:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Aman Kumar Goel, I completely agree with you that no one owns any article here, and we need reliable sources supporting the statements, not any WP:OR. I would just like to point out that there is no dispute till now; we are working on a collaborative project, and we have a common goal i.e. to improve the article or its content based on reliable & verifiable sources. Please go through the following two sources, and let me know your opinion, so that we can work on these: "Source 1"[7] and "Source 2"[8]. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Added relevant content per the source provided. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 18:52, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your edit. I shall add some more relevant information from the source(s). Ekdalian (talk) 07:48, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Consider keeping the content relevant only to Chandala. The theories about caste, untouchability and other broader subjects should be kept out unless they are directly related to this subject. The most popular source here was merely giving descriptions about "The origins of Caste and Untouchability" than "Chandala".[9] Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 12:19, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

A few Edits and Suggestions

So I just slightly edited the text, because Varna is primarily outlined in Dharmashastras. I also propose adding the more positive mentions of Chandalas in later text at least religiously speaking. 108.39.84.90 (talk) 04:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

good manners of the Aryans. To be chanting the holy name of Your Lordship, they must have bathed at holy places of pilgrimage, studied the Vedas and fulfilled everything required. (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.33.6–7)

A Chandala who is a pure Vaishnava at heart and who decorates the eleven parts of his body with Vishnu-Tilaka and sandalwood paste is always worshipable, even by the best of Brahmanas. (Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda 66.84)

A Bramhana who is expert in studying all four Vedas is not dear to Me. But a devotee who comes from a family of Chandalas is dear to Me. He should be offered gifts and one should accept gifts from him. He is as worshipable as I am. (Hari-Bhakta-Vilasa 10.127)

If a devotee of Vishnu, even though he be a Chandala, is recollected, named, seen or touched accidentally by anybody, O dear madam, the former purifies them. (Varaha Purana 211.9)

Oh Lord at SriRangam! Even brahmins in the top caste, Learned in all the four Vedas and their six adjuncts, will become outcastes, should they decry Your devotees in the low caste. (Thirumaalai,43)

It is through deep love that the Chandala makes me his own, while without it the Brahmin is nothing to me. (Garuda Purāṇa 1.231.9)

“Keep in mind I don’t believe in any of these texts due to them being of latter authenticity, but still this shows a different picture of Brahmins as a whole.”

Unconfirmed Verses 108.39.84.90 (talk) 04:51, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Doubts having arisen on this point, O prince; of serpents, Swayambhuba Manu has declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the (other) classes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification, the latter do not conform to the rules of good conduct, O excellent snake! Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana.'

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-mohan/d/doc7458.html 108.39.84.90 (talk) 04:52, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

All these quotes are from ancient texts like the Puranas, which are not accepted here; read WP:PRIMARY. Please find modern scholarly work by reliable authors! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 11:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)