Talk:Chalav Yisrael

Introductory paragraph

I have rewritten the introductory paragraph. The old introductory paragraph was a general introduction, not linked directly to the rest of the article. It was also lifted verbatim from the Star-K web site and a possible copyright violation. --Redaktor 15:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Subject

Surely the subject of this article should be Cholov akum (the main concept). The expression cholov Yisroel is relatively recent and is used to indicate that a product does not contain cholov akum.--Redaktor 22:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps there be on article on each term: Cholov yisrael, Cholov Akum, and Cholov Stam. On the hebrew wikipedia the article for this subject is Cholov akum [1] with the other terms like cholov Yisrael redirecting to that article. Shlomke 23:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds right. We should do the same here.--Redaktor 15:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chalav Yisrael

The change to 'Sephardic' spelling was made without any discussion. Most of the discussion on this subject is by people who use the Ashkenazi pronunciation,This is borne out by Google test: 25000 hits for Cholov Yisroel v 15800 for Chalav Yisrael. Please revert to the long-standing spelling. --Redaktor 22:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

-- It is actually not a case of Sephardic versus Ashkenazic pronunciation in this case: here, Chalav/Cholov is in the construct state and thus the vowelization is chataf-patach (under the chet) and patach (under the lamed). I have edited the page accordingly. - Hebrew_Grammar_Pedant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.136.133.212 (talk) 17:25, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article is currently entitled "Cholov Yisroel", so that's how it should be spelled for consistency--it looks silly to say the topic is "cholov" and then talk all about things that are "chalav" instead (see WP:ARTCON for this as a standard guideline). If a different spelling is more correct, feel free to file a move request. DMacks (talk) 17:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say this is compatible to WP:ENGVAR. When an article has been started in a particular spelling, strong consensus is required for a move. JFW | T@lk 19:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I now see that I moved this page to Chalav Yisrael in 2007 (that's 6 years ago, no surprise I needed refresh my memory). Having seen WP:ENGVAR in action, I now believe that Chalav Yisrael is the preferred spelling, but that the page should not be moved without consensus. JFW | T@lk 19:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fails most basic policies in its present form.

This article cites almost no sources and most of what is written is either highly controversial or debatable at best. I propose rewriting the entire thing after the lead section and including only sourced material.--Winchester2313 (talk) 01:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 31 December 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cholov Yisroel → Chalav Yisrael – The spelling in the article and the article title have now contradicted each other for several months. This situation is not allowed (articles can and should mention alternate common spellings, but need to be selfconsistent in general). It's long been out-of-sync, and I really don't care which way it gets resolved: revert the spelling changes in the article prose to match the title, or rename the article to match the spelling in the prose. Per the discussion a few months ago (#Chalav Yisrael on this talkpage), there is weak acceptance of renaming but no actual WP:COMMONNAME or other evidence or policy cited to support either choice. This is an administrative start of a discussion to sort it out, and I'll leave it to another admin to close and decide, even if by flipping a coin among positions that neither have actual policy support. --Relisted. — Amakuru (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2014 (UTC) DMacks (talk) 21:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Comment - I am relisting this, and also putting up a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism, to try to get some more input into the debate. — Amakuru (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Good question. I think the main thing is to make the spelling consistent. The easier way to do it is to rename the article Chalav Yisrael, since the rest of the article already uses that. And since Sefardim are among those who observe Chalav (or even Ḥalav—ch is a carryover from German transliteration) Yisrael, we should probably stick with that. But among Ashkenazim, most who observe this (i.e., don't drink chalav stam) are people who would probably pronounce it Cholov Yisroel. I don't care strongly, as long as the "other" one still exists as a redirect. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. On the whole, WP:JEW has generally been using Sephardi/modern Hebrew transliteration, as this is the spelling most likely to be encountered in daily practice by the average reader. JFW | T@lk 22:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support since modern Hebrew pronunciation is generally preferred. Debresser (talk) 23:49, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Printed sources are (as one would expect) evenly split between Ashkenazi "Cholov Yisroel products" since 1990 = 6x vs Sephardi/Israeli "chalav Yisrael products. But I note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) says "Never ch or kh" - similar to User:StevenJ81 comment above re Halav Yisrael being less Germanic. Support a move, but because of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) not sure about Chalav or Halav.

Also, whatever happens with move the lead really should identify "Ashkenazi" "Sephardi" not just use "or" - we wouldn't give British vs American spellings in a lead with just "or". A model lead would be good to include in Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (regional). At the moment there is no MOS:HEBREW. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - A Google test of Cholov Yisroel turned up 42,300 results while a Google test of Chalav Yisrael turned up 20,900 results. Also, all of the cholov yisroel products that I've seen use the Ashkenazi spelling, and I would think that a large number of people who are looking at the article would be people who see it on food packaging and want to know more about it. --PiMaster3 ^talk 16:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would reemphasize that whatever "wins", the opposite spelling must be present as a redirect. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This will certainly be the case. Currently there is a redirect Chalav Yisrael→Cholov Yisroel. If the page is renamed to the other one, the redirect would be reversed. DMacks (talk) 17:13, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Correct Hebrew pronunciation

As an anonymous user stated above, the construct state should be used here (meaning "milk of Israel"; otherwise the literal translation would be "milk Israel" – quite nonsensical, if you ask me) and thus the vowelization is chataf-patach (under the chet). However, the anonymous user is mistaken regarding the patach under the lamed. Rather, the lamed receives a tzere as in Exodus 23:19 לֹא תְבַשֵּׁל גְּדִי בַּחֲלֵב אִמּוֹ. I edited the article accordingly. See also similar discussions at Talk:Shalom bayit. -- -- -- 22:44, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Thanks also to User:In ictu oculi for your comment above. I edited the article accordingly. -- -- -- 02:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]