Talk:Chả lụa

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This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 20:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Leaf or leaves?

Is one banana leaf used to wrap a cha-lua, or more than one leaf? Badagnani (talk) 05:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's more than one leaf. Eistube (talk) 03:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Two leaves, then, per cha-lua? Are the leaves whole, or are they cut into strips? Is the center part of the leaf removed? Badagnani (talk) 03:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move proposal

Move to Chả lụa. Actual Vietnamese spelling and there is apparently no prevalent English spelling. Another editor attempted to do a cut-and-paste move, but such moves are not permitted at Wikipedia. Badagnani (talk) 03:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When I used the move button, it now gives me error because the page Chả lụa already exists. How can it be deleted to move this one over there? Eistube (talk) 03:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, when that happens (it happens often), that means that only an admin can move the page, because there's already something there (a redirect) at the title you want to move it to. You can put a move proposal here, or, to have it moved more quickly, at the page move request page (Wikipedia:Requested moves). That way, it preserves the page's history. But first, it's usually best to make a move request at the discussion page of the article, so other editors can comment. Badagnani (talk) 03:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So how long do we have to wait? Thank you for correcting my mistake.Eistube (talk) 03:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes I wait up to 1 or 2 years and nobody cares or does anything (if I leave a move proposal at a talk page that nobody looks at). But at Wikipedia:Requested moves, I think it should be just a few days. I think the page move seems okay, because most of the Vietnamese cuisine items are spelled with proper Vietnamese diacritics. Badagnani (talk) 03:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just did it at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Uncontroversial_proposals. Badagnani (talk) 03:56, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

Is this term originally of Sino-Vietnamese term or from Cantonese? The fact that the first syllable may be chả or giò makes me think so. Badagnani (talk) 03:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the second syllable may come from 縷. Badagnani (talk) 04:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will search for the actually "etymology" of the term, but what I meant was the literal meaning, which is strictly Vietnamese, unlike bò bía - popiah for example. Eistube (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, do you happen to have a very good Vietnamese dictionary that gives the origins of each word? Badagnani (talk) 05:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't. But what makes you think the first syllable come from Cantonese and the second come from 縷? I can't read any of the Chinese languages, but it seems the word means thread, or precise, which is not the same as silk or silky. Eistube (talk) 05:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I'm wrong; I am thinking of examples of recent Vietnamized foods like Sâm bổ lượng whose names are confusing because they're not of old Sino-Vietnamese origin, but instead are Vietnamized (corrupted) Cantonese. The use of the ả tone and the fact that there are alternate pronuncations also made me think the term might have come from one of the southern Chinese dialects. Badagnani (talk) 05:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Foods like that are strictly of Southern Vietnamese origin, hence their names come from Cantonese or Teochew dialects, like sâm bổ lượng, bò bía, xá xíu, lạp xưởng...These foods are virtually non-existent in North Vietnam or only recently introduced to North Vietnam in the past decades by Southern Vietnamese migrated to North Vietnam. Chả lụa or giò lụa have been in Vietnamese cuisine for a long time and exist throughout all regions of Vietnam, so its name cannot come from Cantonese or Teochew dialect.

The page about Vietnamese cuisine also says that Southern Vietnamese dish are more influenced by Chinese, Khmer, Cham, and Thai while Northern Vietnamese dish are more traditional Vietnamese, hence you see the phenomenons of food names like "sâm bổ lượng, bò bía, xá xíu..." in Southern Vietnam, but not Northern Vietnam. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 05:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding 縷, I see that it doesn't mean silk but thread, but it uses the silk radical 糸. I agree that it doesn't seem to make sense to have a sausage named after a thread. I'm not sure if this character was used as Han tu or Chu nom, or both. Badagnani (talk) 05:48, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I assure you that chả and giò are not two different pronunciations of the same word. They are two different words, like "sausage" and "ham". Chả is the southern Vietnamese term, giò is the northern one, and they are used interchangeably in this case. Similar to how "chả giò" and "nem rán" are two names for the same thing, but certainly not two different pronunciations of the term.

I see; I hadn't understood that. I think that should be made more clear, that they are different words with different meanings. Badagnani (talk) 06:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the pronunciation of silk 糸? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eistube (talk • contribs) 06:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just added the Vietnamese reading, which is mịch. Cantonese, Mandarin, and all the others are at the entry (just click it to see them). Badagnani (talk) 06:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just corrected the term to make it clearer. How can I add special characters for the pronunciation (as is done with Phở)? Thank you.Eistube (talk) 06:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Special characters? Do you mean IPA? I don't know how to add that. I have software for entering Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, and Russian, but I haven't done IPA. Badagnani (talk) 06:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you could try Help:IPA. I don't know how tones are done with IPA. Badagnani (talk) 06:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like at least some entries at vi:Wiktionary have IPA. See http://vi.wiktionary.org/wiki/ch%E1%BA%A3 http://vi.wiktionary.org/wiki/l%E1%BB%A5a Badagnani (talk) 06:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of Chả and Giò

Chả in Vietnamese is fried or grilled meat.

We have many dish with the name chả and they all involve some kind of meat that is fried or grilled. Chả cá is fried fish patty. Bún chả in North Vietnam is the equivalent of bún thịt nướng in South Vietnam (rice noodle with grilled meat). BTW, some people may think that chả must be fried chopped meat but I don't think so, because chả in bún chả isn't chopped, it's only grilled. So chả is just meat that is fried or grilled.

Giò in Vietnamese is soft minced meat. Bánh giò is the Vietnamese cake filled with soft minced meat. Please don't mistake this word with "giò" as in leg, foot. I believe they are homophones.

Chả giò is fried minced meat roll. Northern Vietnamese call it "nem rán." The word "nem" here simply means "meat." We have nem nướng (grilled meat), nem cuốn (rolled meat), nem chua (sour meat)...

Therefore, with the same food, but Northern Vietnamese call it "giò lụa" (silky soft minced meat) and Southern Vietnamese call it "chả lụa" (silky fried meat). Both are fine as the meat is both fried and minced. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 04:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Name

As the article said: "The most well-known giò/chả lụa comes from the village Ước Lễ, Thanh Oai, province Hà Tây", in Ước Lễ they call this delicacy giò lụa, not chả lụa (Southern dialect) so I change the name from chả lụa to giò lụa in order to avoid confusion (Ước Lễ also produces another speciality called chả, but not the one described in this article). Source (in Vietnamese). Grenouille vert (talk) 14:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]