Talk:Celie Ellis Turner

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 16:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

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• ... that despite the classical music education her wealthy family had her study, Celie Ellis Turner chose to join comic opera and farce theatre over her parents' objections?

• Source: * "Miss Ellis is a graduate of the Villa Maria Convent of Montreal, Canada, and received her musical education under Mme. Kartel, taking a post graduate course at the Metropolitan College of Music in New York." - Celie Ellis, The Sentinel
• "She comes from one of the best families in New York, her father having been a Congressman from that State and her mother a near relative of ex-Gov. Seymour. Her family objected strongly to her going on the stage..." - At The Gardens, St. Louis Post-Dispatch
• "Miss Celie Ellis, who has been prominent in comic opera and farce comedy for a number of years..." - Dramatic, Minneapolis Daily Times

ALT1: ... that despite her classical music education and her family's objections to her becoming a stage actress, Celie Ellis Turner chose to join the theatre to perform comic opera and farce?

ALT2: ... that Celie Ellis Turner became a stage actress against her family's wishes, preforming comic opera and farce?

ALT3: ... that comic opera performer Celie Ellis Turner pursued a stage career against the wishes of her family?

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Hathumoda

Created by Silver seren (talk) and FloridaArmy (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 131 past nominations.

Silverseren^C 19:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC).

• Will review this. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Looks good. Nice work. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron, BeanieFan11, Silver seren, Fram, and Secretlondon: this nom has been reopened for further thought, following issues raised at WP:ERRORS (peramlink: [1]) about the hook / article integrity (article talks about an argument over theatre acting, not over comic opera specifically) and also a thought that linking the classical music education to the argument with the family with the word despite isn't supported by sourcing. Suggest a rework to make this more robust.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I made corrections to the article along those lines, but then forgot to go back and update the hook. that one's on me! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her)

Amakuru, this is, honestly, nonsense. Comic opera and farce is the type of theatre acting and performances she went into. They objected to her doing theatre acting and she did anyways, becoming a star in comic opera and farce theatre. Where is the contradiction? Silverseren^C 00:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

As noted, there are two issues that I can see with this. Firstly, the "despite" seems to be misplaced - comic opera is a form of classical music, so it's not like her musical education went to waste while she pursued something totally different. You're inserting a link between those things that isn't sourced. And secondly, the article text and the source specifically say it was stage acting specifically that the family objected to. That might have a logical corrollary that they wouldn't approve of comic opera and farce, but the DYK rules require accuracy in this matter. The hook, article and source must match in what they say, not require logical leaps. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 00:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Amakuru, is that ALT better since I've minorly rearranged things? Silverseren^C 00:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Re-review of ALT requested. Silverseren^C 00:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are ok with it, @Silver seren:, I would approve an ALT1b: ... that Celie Ellis Turner became a stage actress against her family's wishes, preforming comic opera and farce? There is nothing interesting about classically educated and being a comic opera actress, since comic opera is a type of classical music, and in fact the Sentinel article that is used to source her education seems to mention it to bolster her credentials. As such, the fact shouldn't be in the hook. Capish? Mach61 01:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I've added that as ALT2. Silverseren^C 01:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Silver seren: I hate to renege on what I said a few minutes ago, I really do, but I don't think I can approve this article. All the sources used in the body of the article (1-13, 14-30 just cite the plays she was in) are from over a century ago, and all but one specifically from the years 1885-1900, and all from WP:NEWSPRIMARY sources. I thought it would be easy, based on the volume of contemporary coverage she recieved, to find one book or article on historical theater from after her death mentioning her, but there really doesn't appear to be anything like that. Seeing as I'm not certain she's notable I don't think I can approve this article. Again, very sorry Mach61 02:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm really confused on your understanding of notability. There is no requirement whatsoever that there be modern coverage of an article. If that was the case, we'd end up eventually deleting almost all biography articles because coverage of them would eventually stop. And that's also not how NEWSPRIMARY works. Sources like this are significant coverage of the subject and her history. The play that is happening at the time would make the article a primary source on that if it was just mentioning that happening, but the article is about Turner, the main person who will be performing in that play and her history. Turner is not an event. Silverseren^C 02:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Silver seren: some responses

• There is no requirement whatsoever that there be modern coverage of an article. If that was the case, we'd end up eventually deleting almost all biography articles because coverage of them would eventually stop My concern isn't that there aren't sources some arbitrary number of years close to the present day, which would lead to the problem you describe, but rather that there aren't sources distanced from the timeframe where she was actively preforming (to the point where we her date of death isn't even stated). An obituary from the 1940s, or a mention in a journal of theater studies from that same time, would both suffice on that front. If I saw evidence such sources existed at all, I would be fine approving the article and adding {{refideas}} to talk, but they don't appear to.
• And that's also not how NEWSPRIMARY works. Sources like this are significant coverage of the subject and her history. You're right, I should not have said all the sources were primary. I guess that I turned to that essay as a poor surrogate for explaing my concerns about an article based almost entirely on late 19th-century newspaper clippings, which are that
  1. Newspapers that far back were just a lot worse at fact-checking and had lower standards compared to now, in a much more significant way then newspapers of, say, the 1970s (hell, some people might argue that newspapers were better in the 70s comparted to today because the internet and corporate consolidation hadn't hollowed them out)
  2. Such an article can't place its subject in its proper historical context, particularly when it comes to the end of the subject's period of covered activity, so the end of the article will just be whatever random thing the last clipping talks about and their fate from then on is totally unknown.

These aren't really issues that can be cited to a part of the notability or DYK guidelines specifically, but more fundamental value concerns with what I think is necessary for a good encyclopedia article. The ideal way to test if I actually have a point in holding up the nomination over this would be to start an AfD, but that would probably force WP:DYKTIMEOUT which isn't fair, so I'll bow out and ask for another reviewer on WT:DYK Mach61 05:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

. Going to sleep right after this, if you want a response from me don't expect it for another several hours Mach61 05:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mach61: Applying WP:DYKTIMEOUT is a matter of editorial discretion, so it's never really "forced". jlwoodwa (talk) 01:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jlwoodwa: It isn't, but there's no way to ensure a reviewer won't invoke it. May as well avoid the risk (and it's not as if every possibly non-notable article needs to be AfD'd immediately). Mach61 01:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• I suggest alt3 because it more closely matches the source ... that comic opera performer Celie Ellis Turner pursued a stage career against the wishes of her family?

The source is about the English Opera Company's summer season of comic operas in which Turner was a cast member. It states that her family opposed her "going on the stage" (ie stage career). This should allay the overly pedantic concerns of the editors who pulled the hook. Additionally, the sourcing is absolutely fine. The interpretation of WP:NEWSPRIMARY is completely offbase. In my opinion Alt3 should be able to be given a tick of approval immediately.4meter4 (talk) 00:39, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added that as an option ALT as well. Silverseren^C 00:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

ALT3 checks out; I believe that's the only thing that needs ticking off, but do ping otherwise.--Launchballer 00:28, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Marriage and death

@Silver seren: I saw this on DYKT and had a look

• Ancestry has a marriage on 26 Jul 1894 in Manhattan, New York between Celia G Flannagan and Charles W Turner. Could you find any press coverage? Turner seems to be a married name so she was not born Celie G. Turner.
• According to Variety Mrs. Cecilia Turner, known as Cecilia Ellis, died on 2 October 1924. It looks like the same woman, her age may be incorrect, again there may be further press coverage.

TSventon (talk) 09:32, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• Also, according to his obituary, her father Richard R. Flannagan was a coroner rather than a congressman. I can't find him in Biographical Directory of the United States Congress, 1774-2005. TSventon (talk) 10:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

  TSventon, I can't find anything on the marriage. Though obviously it's difficult to search with different potential name variations. As for her death, that Variety source is definitely about her and I also found this, further confirming it. As for her father, you're right, I misunderstood the reference already used there and have corrected it now. Silverseren^C 00:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Silver seren, I found the Variety article quoted in Silent Film Necrology via Google books, which had hardly any further information, so a full Wikipedia article is useful. I think that congressman came from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reference, but coroner seems more credible. I wonder whether the marriage to Henry Blake in 1887 happened, all we are told is that it was planned. If she was 50 in 1924 she would have been 13 in 1887, so her age is probably wrong. Thank you for checking the Turner marriage, the variant names are indeed a complication. TSventon (talk) 06:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sure she lied about her age. I've found that to be very common for actors in the early 1900s, since many of them preferred to get younger or child roles even when they were already in their late teens. It's kind of annoying. Thanks for the changes you made! Silverseren^C 03:12, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Silver seren: I had another look at Ancestry and found her in the 1870 and 1880 US censuses with Richard Flanagan (assemblyman aged 34 and ex-coroner aged 45) and some other Flanagan children. Her age was 5 in 1870 and 15 in 1880, so she must have been born in 1864/1865. Now all I need to do is work out how to cite a US census. TSventon (talk) 16:45, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help with this. Silverseren^C 20:30, 30 November 2024 (UTC)