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Talk:Caucasian Shepherd Dog

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Height-Weight changes

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Source for the constant changes (and in some cases insane claims)? ". The preferred height at the withers is in the range 67–70 cm for bitches, and 72–75 cm for dogs. The minimum heights and weights for registration are 64 cm and 40 kg for bitches, and 68 cm and 50 kg for dogs.[5]" Preferred by who? The numbers are a good range but also have been changed by a few kilos up and down which is odd so source pls. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Preferred by the FCI who publish the standard for the breed. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some people are constantly trying to claim this breed as Russian

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Some people are constantly removing the essential information about the history of Caucasian Shepherd Dogs described in the book of Russian cynologist Aleksander Mazover. The Caucasian Shepherd Dogs are native to the countries of the Caucasus region, especially to Georgia. The source by Aleksander Mazover is reliable and confirms that. However, some people are constantly trying to claim this breed as their own, and label it as a Russian breed in the description. Please, stop them from disruptive editing.Caucasian Man (talk) 20:15, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Caucasian Man (talk · contribs), there are certainly some reliable sources that state the breed is not just Russian, but found throughout the Caucasus, Desmond Morris in his Dogs: the ultimate guide to over 1,000 dog breeds states the breed is found in “the Caucasian mountain range in south-western Russia and neighbouring countries”.[1] Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 04:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
Hello Cavalryman (talk · contribs), thank you very much, I agree. The Southern Part of the Caucasus region is where Soviet breeders took most dogs from, because Caucasian Shepherds have been most widespread in the South Caucasus, especially in Georgia. Multiple sources confirm that, most notably the source by Aleksander Mazover. Mazover was the first cynologist who scientifically described Caucasian Shepherd dogs, and titled Georgia as a central region of Caucasian Shepherds' distribution, both in terms of numbers and quality.[2] Besides, even though North Caucasus has been a part of Russia since the 19th century, they have their own distinct culture and history. Just like we can't label Tibetan mastiff as Chinese, so can't we label North Caucasan dogs as Russian, the same way we can't call Papakha hats Russian. I think this needs to be emphasized more. And since Caucasian Shepherds are predominantly South Caucasian (where independent countries reside), it's very ignorant to label this breed as Russian. Best regards, Caucasian Man (talk) 19:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Caucasian Man, Cavalryman, I suppose the principal reason for describing this dog as "Russian" would be that it was bred in the Soviet Union and is acknowledged as Russian by numerous sources including the FCI. Does Mazover actually state that the breed was not created in the Soviet Union (sorry, my Russian is very shaky, please verify this one way or the other, giving page and line number). According to him, where was it bred, by whom and for what purpose? Janet Dohner is absolutely clear that it was "bred by the Soviet Red Army and other state-run or factory kennels for use as guard and patrol dogs".[3]: 68–70  I don't think there's any question that it derives from dogs taken to Russia from the Caucasus region, but that does not mean that it is not a Russian creation. Perhaps we can find a way of stating that without denying its Russian origins? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Justlettersandnumbers, thank you for your interest in this breed. First of all, I'd like to say that Caucasian Shepherds were not bred. You cannot find any sources that claim that Caucasian Shepherds are a result of cross-breeding between several dogs. They were developed from aborigenal dogs of the Caucasus region through selective breeding. Also, FCI never stated that this breed is Russian. It states that it's from the Soviet Union. The USSR was a large country, and included 14 countries that are independent today. It wasn't only Russia. Hence, not everything Soviet is Russian. As for the Caucasian Shepherds, they originate from the Caucasus mountains and belong to the Caucasian people. Soviet Cynologists standardazied this breed and registered it in the FCI as a Soviet breed, because Georgia was a part of the Soviet Union at that time (Georgia's Sovietization was involuntary, but that's irrelevant to this discussion). However, that doesn't mean that this breed is Russian. Caucasian Shepherds are a creation of Caucasian people. As for the sources, the entire 3rd page discusses how Caucasian Shepherds were systematically bred in the collective farms located exclusively in Georgia. I provide the reference to this page.[4] The book even provides a scheme including the names of the dogs that have been used for selective breeding. The page also mentions the names of collective farms where major work on selective breeding had been carried out. All of them were located exclusively in Georgia. Don't worry if you aren't comfortable with Russian. If you are using chrome, you can use the translate feature of the browser to translate the page in English. The translation is very good, I checked it. Hope that clarifies everything. Thank you. Sincerely, Caucasian Man (talk) 22:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Morris, Desmond (2001). Dogs: the ultimate guide to over 1,000 dog breeds. North Pomfret, VT: Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 399–400. ISBN 1-57076-219-8.
  2. ^ Aleksandr, Mazover. Племенное дело в служебном собаководстве (Breeding of working dogs). pp. 2, 3. Retrieved 27 August 2020.
  3. ^ Janet V. Dohner (2016). Farm Dogs: A Comprehensive Breed Guide to 93 Guardians, Herders, Terriers, and Other Canine Working Partners. North Adams, Massachusetts: Storey Publishing. ISBN 9781612125923.
  4. ^ Aleksandr, Mazover. Племенное дело в служебном собаководстве (Breeding of working dogs). pp. 2, 3. Retrieved 27 August 2020.

Georgians think they invented everything

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The dog clearly has connections to Tibetan Mastiff so claiming that it originated specifically in "mountains of Georgia" or by russians is funny to me. Its unfortunate that Caucasus region doesn't have better sources because people write whatever they want so shamelessly Cherkezy (talk) 13:16, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Cherkezy (talk · contribs). The connections to Tibetan Mastiff have never been proved. These are just speculations. Caucasian Shepherds originate from the Caucasus mountains, particulary the Southern slopes, i.e. the Georgian part. Therefore, yes, it is not Russian. Mazover is perfectly clear about this. Thank you, Caucasian Man (talk) 16:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are proving my point Cherkezy (talk) 18:36, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see your point here Caucasian Man (talk) 00:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reason banned

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Nothing currently about behavior, temperament. FWIU they can be quite dangerous, should have something on that. 98.4.112.204 (talk) 12:51, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The ban in Denmark and restrictions in Russia are mentioned in the article. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:43, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Someone keeps mentioning Russian republics as the origin of Caucasian Shepherds

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We must keep in mind that Caucasian Shepherd is an old breed and predates Russian invasion of Caucasus. It is not correct to say that "Russian republic of Dagestan" is one of the regions of origin, as Dagestan was not a Russian republic when Caucasian shepherds were spread across the Caucasus Mountains. Same with the other Republics.

The breed was standardized and refined under the selective breeding program in the USSR, but the origin is Caucasus. Majority of the dogs used in selective breeding were taken from Georgia, but a notable amount of Caucasian Shepherd specimens were taken from other regions as well. Caucasian Man (talk) 21:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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