Talk:Catholic Church/GA1

GA Reassessment

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Per the GA criteria, this article currently fails 1, 4, and 5. It fails 1 because it's anything but well-written: it's filled with choppy prose and it fails WP:MOS on many levels, including an ugly and bloated TOC. It fails 4 because several editors have raised important and valid objections about its neutrality (see the article's talk page). Finally, it absolutely fails 5 because it's been the subject of massive revisions and edit wars in the last few weeks. To call this article "stable" would be a joke. I recommend that it be removed from the GA list.UberCryxic (talk) 02:06, 11 March 2010 (UTC) GA Reassessment review and comments Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch This article no longer meets the Good Article Criteria on several grounds. The article is not well-written. It fails to inform the reader and is little more than a hodgepodge of lists or an apologetic tract. The article is not factually accurate. There are misleading sentences and numerous instances of sketchy sourcing. While the coverage is exceedingly broad it goes too much into unnecesarry detail. There are subarticles on every topic in every section, yet these subarticles do not go into the level of detail that the parent article goes into. Simply put, this piece is not written in Summary-style The article is plagued with POV issues, which would be unneccesary if it were not written down to the level of detail that it finds itself, in. The article is plagued by edit-warring and ownership. There are image copyright issues as well The only criteria which it does not fail is on the use of images.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 02:13, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Well hang on there Mike. It might actually fail images too because I couldn't verify the source for one of them during my revisions, raising copyright issues.UberCryxic (talk) 02:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Yes take a look at the photograph of Pope Benedict. The external link is broken; source can't be verified. My oh my it fails them all. It's a home run!UberCryxic (talk) 02:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Comment. Hmm. When i first came to the article late last year, i could understand why someone might query its GA status, as I had thought it did not meet at least a couple of the criteria. At the same time, i thought the intensive level of work on the article, and the careful (if not always reliable) footnoting, suggested that a GAR would not be productive. While I am inclined to agree with Uber on this, I think UberMike may wish to make some comments here on how s/he intends to handle the GAR process in light of the temporary stop on editing in the article space, and on how the GAR would proceed if the alternative framework for the article becomes the base for editing, instead of the present one. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Question. UberCryxic, are you sure that you followed the correct instructions to initiate this as a community GAR rather than as an individual GAR? So far this sub-page hasn't shown up over at GAR. Please check to see that you've followed the correct instructions; if this isn't cross-posting to WP:GAR it needs to be fixed. Thanks, Majoreditor (talk) 03:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC) I did not start this GAR. Mike did. I only suggested we needed one. I think the method is appropriate, but I'm not fully sure. Since he started the process, it's up to Mike to determine whether this article stays as GA anyway.UberCryxic (talk) 03:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Sorry, it looked like you had because your posting is at the top. In any case, this is best handled as a proper community GAR. Mike, can you switch this over to community so it cross-posts at WP:GAR? Thanks, Majoreditor (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Comment. This article does not presently meet GA criterion 5 (Stability). It is proper to delist it for now; once edit warring and the like have settled down it can be re-nominated at WP:GAN. However - and this is important - involved editors should not move to delist this article. Let this go to community GAR for an uninvolved party to close. Majoreditor (talk) 03:36, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Mike can speak for himself too, but I'm actually going to preempt him because I'm on solid turf when I say he has not been that involved with editing the actual article recently. I think it's more than appropriate that he started the GAR.UberCryxic (talk) 03:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Majoreditor, I have no idea what you're saying: I don't speak GA, and every time I look, it's changed. This article is not GA; how can it be delisted? I had to do MOS cleanup at five different FACs, so I show as a contributor even though Nancy & Co had me doing secretarial cleanup every time it came to FAC. I have never entered any discussion here other than to advocate that the article is too long, nor have I edited any content. Am I considered "involved" for GA purposes? Should I delist? What happened to speedy delist? This article is not GA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC) (ec) Sandy, this article appears to be currently listted as a Good Article; see the top of this talk page. It will be best for this GAR to run its course as a community GAR. Please let Geometry guy ensure that it's properly posted at WP:GAR. I will contact him. Thanks, Majoreditor (talk) 03:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Ok. I'm just not exactly sure what should happen. Mike, since you started it, do whatever needs to be done so that this article gets proper attention from GA reviewers. Or Major can handle it too if that would be faster.UberCryxic (talk) 04:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Thanks, Uber. I've contacted Geomentry guy for his guidance, given his experience with the GAR process. I think that you, Mike and Sandy are rightfully concerned that this article no longer meets GA criteria, but let's ensure that the GAR process is open to the greater community and that it's closed by an uninvolved party. Cheers, Majoreditor (talk) 04:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Sorry, just got in from training. I have been a major contributor to this article, mostly reverting vandalism, I have not been that active recently on it, but I think my name still shows in the "Top 10 list"; so I want to make sure there is no COI. I thought I clicked Community, but Uber may have hit enter a few seconds before me, so I just followed what he did on GA1. What do i need to do, this is new territory for me, I'm usually trying to get articles promoted?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Well I don't think it has to be a community reassessment. They give you the option for an individual reassessment and leave the ultimate decision up to the person who initiated the process. That's my understanding of it.UberCryxic (talk) 04:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC) (ec) Majoreditor has asked User:Geometry guy, one of the most experienced editors with the GA process, for advice. It's probably good to wait what he has to say. Ucucha 04:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Sounds good to me. I can wait.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC) (undent) Comment Revert to stable version. Protect. KEEP GA. Are there admins watching for trolls and POV warriors here? • Ling.Nut 02:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC) It is a very bad article; it makes assertions unsupported even by the sources it quotes; it is (and has been for months, if not years), the product of revert-warring, chiefly for the (often avowed) purpose of speaking "positively" about its subject (three of the faction involved dared say so to ArbCom). It is unstable because the present text is long, bloated, inaccurate, and partisan - and some people want it that way; there is no stable version, unless revert-warring can constitute one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:16, 12 March 2010 (UTC) In short, it is a huge freaking poster boy for flagged revisions. Or flagged revisions and then some. Meanwhile, however: I'm not saying it is the Correct Version; I'm saying pick the best recent version (immediately after its most recent FAC, perhaps), revert, and protect. • Ling.Nut 07:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC) It failed FAC; the dubious claims and POV defensiveness were already included before ever it came there. In order to get rid of them, we would have to go back to the last period of stability, two years and more ago, and even then edit extensively; otherwise FR or protection would freeze in the propaganda. The propagandists want it frozen - but without a tag to suggest to the reader that their version may lack something of consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Joint GAR

There are concerns that the article does not meet GA criteria for stability and other issues. User:EyeSerene and I will conduct a joint GAR, and any decision regarding delisting or keeping will be a joint decision. Due to stability concerns this GAR will run until at least 13 April 2010; if there are disruptive edits between now and the end of this GAR the article will be delisted as unstable. As there are significant positive edits and changes being made to the article at the moment, this GAR is put onhold until 20 March to allow editors to proceed unhindered. EyeSerene and I will start to look closely at the article after that date, and make observations as to how we feel the article meets GA criteria. SilkTork *^YES! 18:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

• As editing is still in progress, and a RfC is in place, the outcome of which will impact upon the article, we are extending the hold period for another 7 days. This is in line with Wikipedia:Good article criteria, in particular the footnote to criteria 5, the relevant part of which reads: " Nominations for articles that are unstable because of constructive editing should be placed on hold."
• Our view is that while there is a dispute in place, so far this dispute is being carried on appropriately on the talkpage or in other locations, and has not seriously impacted the article itself recently. Edits to the article appear to us to be constructive and in good faith; though we haven't closely examined the article, so we are not making a comment on the current contents in relation to meeting GA criteria, particularly NPOV, and our inaction should not be taken as an endorsement of the current version of the article.
• We are aware that there is some concern that an article over which there is a dispute regarding NPOV, should be listed as a Good Article, and that putting an article on hold indefinitely would not be acceptable, so when we look at the situation again in seven days we will be looking for significant progress on resolving this issue. SilkTork *^YES! 08:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Extend hold to April 13

The hold has been extended to April 13. This will be after the planned closure of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Catholic Church, and after the return of EyeSerene who is currently on a break. SilkTork *^YES! 14:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment

I note that the RfC has now closed with a consensus to build on the existing "short" version. The article appears to be stable, though I note that there are several citation needed tags. After having this GAR on hold for over a month I feel that it is time for EyeSerene and myself to look at the article, give some comments and make a decision. SilkTork *^YES! 16:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the right place for comments, but I don't believe the article as it currently stands achieves Good Article status. 1) It is not yet stable, with many areas under construction. 2) Numerous elements of the text are disputed, as can be seen from talk page posts. 3) The article is not fully comprehensive, omitting large elements on Catholic beliefs and structures that were formerly detailed. In addition sections on important elements such as pilgrimage are absent, as well as material on the long-term cultural influence of the Church and its modern work including schools, charities, hospitals and missions. 4) The article is poorly illustrated. Xandar 19:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Review by EyeSerene

Per WP:WIAGA:

1. Prose and MoS compliance
   • Overall this looks pretty good to me and is almost at what I'd term GA standard. There are a few sentences that read as though detached from their surroundings but it's not a significant issue; probably the result of multiple writers and the need to summarise vast swathes of information for what is an overview article.
   • The lead section adequately does its job, although the presence of citation needed tags raises a small red flag (not so much regarding the text itself, but whether that text is in fact a summary of sourced information in the article body and, if so, why cites would then be needed in the lead too).
   • Nitpick re the last sentence of the lead, "...and that it is called to work for unity among Christians." Presumably 'it' refers to the Catholic Church, although I didn't parse it this way until the third reading. Can the sentence be made less ambiguous?
   • The Doctrine section came over to me as the weakest prose-wise mainly due to the amount of repetition of certain phrases (see Neutrality below). A light copyedit would, I think solve this.
2. Accuracy and verifiability
   • I think this falls within GA tolerances. There are a few {{fact}} tags, but not many (and I question the need for those in the lead - see above).
   • All external links seem good
   • My limited sample of those sources I can access seemed fine, though I did notice cite 173 (at time of writing, "Paragraph number 1233 (1994). "Catechism of the Catholic Church". Libreria Editrice Vaticana. http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm. Retrieved 12 May 2008.") appears to be sourced to a sourced footnote ("37 Cf. AG 14; CIC, cann. 851; 865; 866." here). Might sourcing the article sentence to the original source be better?
3. Coverage
   • Bearing in mind that the GA requirement for broadness is considerably weaker than the FA requirement for comprehensiveness, on reading the article I felt I came away with a decent grasp of the subject. The article seemed slightly uneven in places (the amount of detail in, for example, the Middle Ages section as opposed to the Contemporary section), but not enough to fail this criterion.
4. Neutrality
   • This is, I think, one of the two contentious issues as far as GA is concerned (the other being the criterion below). Thanks to the sterling efforts of the many editors involved, the article seems to me to be sufficiently neutral - in fact, I'd say in places there is perhaps too much qualification (for example, I lost count of how many times I read "The Church teaches..."!).
5. Stability
   • There have been over 500 edits to the article since this GAR was initiated and these have involved significant changes. This process still seems to be underway, so I'd like the advice of the article writers as to how close they are to settling on a 'finished' version before making a final decision here. However, on present form I'd say the article fails this criterion.
6. Images
   • Although not required at GA, for a subject like this images are very desirable and probably expected. If present images should be suitably licensed, captioned, and relevant to the topic. I have no issues here other than to say that a wider selection of illustrations throughout would be nice :) This is not a GA blocker.

Conclusion: I believe the major issue for this GA assessment is the article stability; I think at some point we must close this GAR, so my inclination is to delist the article for now with the recommendation that it be submitted for a new GA review once major work has finished. Please note, however, that this conclusion is tentative and subject to modification in the light of SilkTork's comments. I also sincerely wish the article writers well with its development and congratulate them for making such fine progress with this difficult subject. EyeSerene^talk 14:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Review by SilkTork

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• I am doing this review independent of EyeSerene, and have not at this point read his comments.
• Prose is mostly clear and readable, conveying complex information in an understandable manner. There are places where it is abrupt and choppy - the Name section is particularly poor, as it a series of very short sentences that could be run together to make that section flow more elegantly. There are little mistakes which show a need for some copyediting, such as this misplaced comma - "The first known, state sponsored case of Christian persecution". There are some very short paragraphs in the Late Antiquity section, and why does Antiguity have a capital letter? The prose needs tidying up to gain an unambiguous Pass.
• MoS guidelines that apply to GA are not completely satisfied. There is an excessive use of unexplained WP:Jargon, such as "the Apostles" in the first sentence of the History section. There is a feeling that there is so much information that the editors are trying to cram in as much as possible in as short a space as possible and this is leading to such a tight compression that it is leading to a form of ellipsis for the less informed. I find the WP:Lead to be inadequate to the needs of the article as it stands, and certainly to the article as it should be when properly developed. The Traditions of worship, particularly the Mass, are not mentioned in the lead, nor is the Schism, and I feel the history of the church could be better presented than the throwaway sentence: "With a history spanning almost two thousand years, the Church is the western world's oldest and largest institution, having played a prominent role in the politics and history of Western civilization since the 4th century." The lead should be able to stand on its own, and that sentence is more of a tease than encyclopedic information. What prominent role? A few significant facts should be given here in summary form, such as the Reformation and Counter-Reformation which were the cause of various wars. Much work needs to be done in this area, and my experience is that this is unlikely to be done in a short period, though I would be willing to hold on evidence of solid work in the right direction.
• Referencing appears solid. The tags in the lead appear to be inappropriate and could be removed. The information in the "programs and institutions" sentence is scattered throughout the article, and each piece of that information I examined had an appropriate cite. In this modern age where many of the texts used as references are available on Googlebooks it is helpful to the general reader to have a direct link to that book. While it is possible to click on the cite number, be bought down to the References section where one can then make a note of the author and page number, then scroll down to look in the Sources section to find the book, note the name and then go to Googlebooks and do a search, it would be easier to include a direct link to the relevant page where possible. This is not, however, a GA requirement, just a personal comment. Ah! I see it has been done in places. I assume it has been done where it was possible to provide a direct link, and the other books have not yet been scanned. Anyway, I feel that
• Broad coverage is going to be a problematic criteria to meet and some common sense has to prevail. I found that I would have appreciated more information in the Early Christianity section, and I found it exceedingly odd that Jesus is barely mentioned. There is more mention of Jesus and his creation of the church in the Doctrine section. Indeed, that section seems disproportionally long, and on examination some of the material (such as "Jesus designated Simon Peter as the leader of the apostles by proclaiming 'upon this rock I will build my church'") can be transferred to the Early Christianity section. I haven't made a final decision on if the article is broad enough for the general reader as my feeling at this stage is that overall the article is not going to meet the GA criteria as there is work to be done, and I think I would rather examine the article more critically and thoroughly when it is in a more developed state.
• I feel that the article is worded and presented in an appropriately neutral manner. The tone is encyclopedic and reassuring. Admirably factual.
• The article has been stable during the period of the GAR even though a dispute was waging on the talkpage. The article has developed positively. The GAR criteria does not give a fail for productive changes. What should be bourne in mind however, is that this is an article which still needs a bit of work, however the work that needs doing is covered by other GA criteria - it currently meets the GA stability citeria.
• The images pass, though the WP:Captions are rather long and could be trimmed as per the caption guideline.
• I admire the development of this article, and the commitment of all those involved. Looking back at the earlier version there is much to admire, though some good stuff has been lost - I found the March 13 version of Early Christianity to be more informative. This article reads like a work in progress, and I feel there is too much work to be done within a short time to bring it to GA standard. Initially my thought was that it might be possible to get the work done while this GA was put on hold again, but given how development has slowed down during April I feel that it would be an unreasonable expectation for the amount of work needed to be completed within even a month. This is a big topic, and shouldn't be hastened. Working toward a GA status is more positively motivating than working to save a GA status. I will read EyeSerene's comments then consult with him on what to do. SilkTork *^YES! 11:20, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Conclusion

I have read through EyeSerene's review. Interesting to note the areas where we have different views and the areas where we concur. Our conclusions, though arrived at via different routes, are the same, that the article should be delisted at this stage as it is still being developed. As such I will delist. SilkTork *^YES! 11:27, 20 April 2010 (UTC)