Talk:Castleroid

This article was nominated for deletion on 8 June 2006. The result of the discussion was merge and redirect to Metroidvania.

I've done some reformatting for better readability. Also moved LoZ to other since there was only one game in the series mentioned. I believe some earlier Zelda games are non-linear too, but that's for someone who's certain to add.

Metroid Fusion - disputed entry, since the game has both explorational elements and a well-ordered plot

Comments like these shouldn't be in the article, it's better to make clear criteria for nonlinearity in a whole game and then discuss those. Since most adventure games strive towards nonlinearity the demands should be pretty high, I believe.

As for my additions I'm uncertain about Shadowgate, you can only pass the troll bridge twice and it cuts the world in half. Check it out and do as you please…

Arru 23:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Metroid Fusion, and the idea of nonlinearity in general.

I think Metroid Fusion definitely counts. Very few non-linear games can be perfectly non-linear, and certain things have to happen in some defined order anyway. Besides, Fusion has quite a lot of explorational elements in it, and can become very non-linear at the end; that's more than can be said of Castlevania: Circle of the Moon, which only really has two possible paths (through or skipping the sewers) plus the exploration component.

Come to think of it, most of these games aren't really all that non-linear. Apart from sequence breaking, the greatest non-linearity in games like these comes purely from the exploration aspect--the fact that you can take your character all around some area and "discover" where stuff is. Unlike games with well-defined levels where you take your character from the start to the finish, these games require you to figure out where you're supposed to go next. That's what I personally think makes these games fun. The fun is first wondering what I can do next now that I have the double-jump, or the anti-gravity jump, or the power bomb, and then discovering those places that I can newly access. Fusion offers quite a lot of explorational liberty--although probably not in chunks as big as entire areas of Dracula's castle, but in small pieces, but part of the challenge is to find your way out of plot twists where the computer doesn't give you directions. You're still forced to find your way around, and to figure out how to make things work.

Maybe it would be more useful to rename this genre simply "exploration" or something like that, without confusing it with other non-linear game genres like role-playing games. ~GMH talk to me 01:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

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I think "non-linear exploration" is pretty good. If it's just "exploration", what would set it apart from the main genre "adventure games"? Or is this article specifically about non-linear console games? In that case it needs a different title.

I do have a problem with the way the list is compiled; there are loads of non-linear adventure games but the list together with the "Castletroid" section gives the impression that the only non-linear exploration games are Metroid, Castlevania and maybe a few more, which is far from true! I would say that, at a minimum, half the games in Category:Adventure games would fit on this list. Perhaps then it would be better to give a few examples of (series of) games)?

Are there really any genre apart from RPG- and adventure games where linearity matters? I mean, Gravitar for instance is a non-linear arcade game but it is not such a desirable trait in this genre, it often makes the game less of a challenge. Perhaps it would be better to merge this with the main article on non-linearity as examples of notable non-linear games.

Arru 09:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"Non-linear exploration" or "Castletroid"

Following this definition

Non-linear exploration is a genre of video games (or a sub-genre of adventure games) whose main characteristic is allowing the player to explore (with some constraints) a complex, non-linearly-mapped world (either 2D or 3D) without being given a direction to follow.

this article applies to most or all adventure games that involve exploration, since it is pretty meaningless in a linear gameplay.

Because of the intense focus on console games, in particular the Metroid and Castlevania series, I get the feeling that this article is not about "good adventure games" (non-linearity is usually a mark of quality for adventure games) but much more specific: "games that are Metroid- or Castlevania-like". That is, platform-ish games with a strong non-linear exploration layout, and where the access to new areas comes from power items and not objects that have to be used in a certain, unknown way.

The expression "nonlinear exploration" is generally used for these games, but also for adventure games like Myst and this conforms with the definition. But, in this broader sense Metroid and Castlevania are just two game series out of an enormous amount of non-linear adventure games.

As I see it this article currently balances between two different meanings:

1. An article on Castletroid games, which needs a less general name, more specific definition (and removing Myst et. al.)
2. A very biased exemplification of non-linear adventure games (non-linearity without exploration does not make much of an adventure)

Or something I've missed, in that case please enlighten me!

Arru 09:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, the so-called "Castletroid" games are definitely a genre or sub-genre of something. I just noticed that no one had yet coined a term to refer to this type of game, so I came up with one myself.

As I stated above, this might not be the best term to describe the Castletroids. I would be open to suggestions on what else this genre should be called, since I also think it leaves loopholes for certain adventure-RPG games.

I've only played the Metroid and Castlevania games listed here (except Dawn of Sorrow, Prime, and Prime 2, which I trust to be similar enough), plus Eternal Daughter and LoZ:aLttP. I don't know what Myst, or anything in the MacVenture series is like. However, I don't want my grouping to be too rooted in Castlevania/Metroid traditions, so I try to keep and open mind about other games posted here, but there are certain thing that definitely aren't part of this genre--maybe a Potter Stewart-type test would be of use here--"I know it when I see it", he said of pornography. ~GMH talk to me 17:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge/delete

Some googling on "nonlinear exploration" shows, indeed, that it is a very general term used in its literal meaning and it does not seem to be tied to the Castletroid games in particular - not too much of a surprise since you came up with it yourself ;-) It is also a bit redundant since "linear exploration" wouldn't amount to much of a game.

Seems like Action-adventure game is the genre for these games, they are all listed there. Let's merge relevant parts of this article to that one.

Arru 08:25, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

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It seems the case is pretty clear that "non-linear exploration" is an unsuitable name for the game genre that appears to be identical to action-adventure game.

I've commenced the merger. Problem is, I'm unable to find much to merge into the action-adventure article. Some, I believe, goes into the linearity article though. I've redirected all (two) links to the linearity page. This article should eventually be removed, but I would like your (Mr. Harvey) approval before doing a delete.

Arru 22:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Name change + cleanup

The deletion discussion showed that several people disapprove of the name and content combination of this article.

I propose the article be moved to Castleroid and edited to reflect the more specific meaning of this term: an umbrella term for later games of the Castlevania and Metroid series only, whose gameplay can be considered non-linear.

Sources for this definition: [1] [2] [3] Arru 22:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The first is just someone's blog, the second was written by some student, and the third defintion only says it's "a nickname that was coined because it combines classic Castlevania gameplay with Metroid-style item and ability collecting". These sources have no merit. Guermantes 21:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm making the move to "Castleroid", the most used term of the three mentioned. I will also rewrite the page, complete with sources! Arru 14:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

This article is agenda pushing, full of misinformation

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past was not published on the NES. It is also not similar to "Castleroids" as it PREDATES them. Castleroids would be similar to it. (This game and a few other games are quite simply not "very similar" to the Castleroid formula, in my opinion.)

It's also rubbish to say the Metroid series is a type of Castleroid because, let's face it, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night took the formula from Super Metroid. The term "Castleroid" is quite simply not applied to the wide range of games that are listed in this article. One cannot take a term and make up things about it. The fact is that sources can never be cited to support all these erroneous statements. No such (reputable) source exists! The term is just a slang word used by the Castlevania fan community and a few publications (quite often Metroidvania, in fact) with the intent to show that the style of game was inspired by Metroid.

This article is a gross misuse of Wikipedia, and should be nominated for deletion again. It's willfully spreading misinformation written by Castlevania fans that have a "pro-Castlevania " agenda to push! (That agenda? To re-appropriate the Super Metroid formula for Castlevania and downplay Metroid's significant role in shaping every 2D Castlevania game beginning with SOTN. And to extrapolate the influence of said games beyond realistic bounds.) Guermantes 21:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

You know, I agree with you. I think it was kind of silly that there was no consensus last time. After all, the article is mostly the work of one particular person. Maybe a compromise is to rewrite the article rather heavily or merge it into, let's say, one paragraph of the action-adventure game article. I'd support that. Arru 11:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I've done an edit, and it's harsh: no statements without sources because this article is highly disputed among those who pay it attention - even its merit as a wikipedia article. Arru 12:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I have a question. Out of curiousity, where would Castlevania II: Simon's Quest fit in with all of this (being that Symphony of the Night is said to root back to Simon's Quest http://castlevania.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Games/sotn.html)? I realize the term 'Castleroid' was coined by 'the media' (years after NES games had stopped being produced) but I feel that the 'elements' associated with the current 'Castleroid' article are vaguely defined. In addition, why not include the Metroid series as opposed to just Super Metroid (Super Metroid isn't much different in gameplay than the first Metroid)? Due to the nature of this article, I share the notion of terminating it. Anataku Hikaru 02:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

That's just the thing, who is saying that SotN "roots back" to Simon's Quest? This article was heavily revised to reflect how the media envisions the term (which in based on the relationship between Super Metroid and SotN) rather than how fans (like the proprietor of the Castlevania Dungeon) define it. Including Simon's Quest or the first Metroid would contradict how acceptable sources (i.e. gaming journalism in print) have defined the term. To my knowledge, the term Castleroid (or it could have been Metroidvania...) has only been used officially by Konami once in a press release for one of the GBA games.

Basically, we cannot know:

1. To what extent Simon's Quest was influenced (if at all, they were released rather close together in Japan) by Metroid.
2. To what extent SotN was influenced by Simon's Quest over Super Metroid.

If we had something more than fans seeing parallels between games, the information could be included in the article. Without reliable cited sources, it's just speculation or opinion. The elements associated with Castleroids are vaguely sketched in the article because Castleroid as a genre or formula hasn't really been rigorously defined. It's not our place to do so, as original research is not acceptable as a source of information on Wikipedia. Guermantes 05:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge to Castlevania

Since the consensus on what constitutes a "Castleroid" has changed from "any Metroid-like game" to "any Metroid-like Castlevania game", it now makes more sense to merge this article into the main Castlevania article, since it refers exclusively to a specific subset of Castlevania games. Luvcraft 22:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

There was no such consensus made, or any shift in definition. Wikipedia is not the place for fans defining a term (i.e. original research or theorizing) it is a place to write encyclopedia articles with cited sources. This article was written to reflect how the media envisions the term, not random internet gamers. If you want to define Castleroid, I suggest you write a scholarly paper on it and have it published in a reputable periodical.

I'm split on merging this article into the Castlevania article. I think it can belong there, but the Castlevania article is already rather long. Also, there's obviously enough information to have an entire article devoted to the term. Guermantes 02:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Reading through the discussion above, which you were part of, I interpret events like this:

1. This article was originally created to refer to all 2D, exploratory action-adventure games, under the name "Non-linear Exploration"
2. It was determined that "Castleroid" would be a better name for the article, and it was renamed.
3. It was decided that "Castleroid" should refer ONLY to "Metroid-style Castlevania games", which is what the text of the article currently reflects. Any attempts to broaden the term were reverted. I created the article Metroid-style game to encompass ALL Metroid-style games, not just Castlevanias.
4. Since this article is now strictly about a subset of Castlevania games, I suggest that it should be merged into the main Castlevania article.

Also, looking through the article's references, I have found NO use of the word "Castleroid" in the print media. If you feel that print media usage or a "scholarly paper" are necessary for defining a "Castleroid", then by extension this article shouldn't exist at all, or should exist only as a footnote in the main Castlevania article as "things fans call Metroid-style Castlevania games". Luvcraft 15:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Revision in my user page

As the recent discourse has shown, it would probably be best to merge Metroid-style games, Metroidvania, and Castleroid into one article. I've revised the three articles into one slightly longer article under the name of Metroidvania. It's a quick and dirty job for now, but it's on my User Page. Comments would be welcome. Lankybugger 23:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)