Talk:Carretera Central (Puerto Rico)

unsourced material removed

"The highway encompasses the entirety of Puerto Rico Highway 14 and the northern third of Puerto Rico Highway 1."

Certainly adding a map to the article would be great. But is this true? How would you know? Why put unsourced material into articles in general. doncram (talk) 16:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Statements about a small list of municipalities also removed, twice i think. The Carretera must have traversed through a dozen or more municipalities. An accurate description of the route of the Carretera could indeed link to a number of municipality articles. However, this article seems a bit under attack with unsourced material being added and arguments for merger being raised at wt:USROADS, where i stated that I would remove unsourced statements. Repeated addition of unsourced statements, seemingly in response to my asking for no unsourced statements, seems unhelpful. doncram (talk) 20:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The wt:USROADS discussion was eventually archived at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_U.S. Roads/Archive 15#another merger candidate: PR-14 vs. Carretera Central. --Doncram (talk) 12:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

What I added was a list of municipios (more like counties on the mainland). Again this is quite obvious from reading the currently sole source. --Polaron | Talk 20:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting here and not just adding back an unsourced statement. I understand what municipalities in PR are, thanks. You've suggested to me a couple times in edit summaries or in comments at wt:USRD that I should consult a map, so I thought you had another source, too. And you also made specific assertions that the Carretera followed the course of two numbered routes. Do you have a map of the Carretera Central that you could share, or add as a source to this article? The PR Bridges MPS document does mention some municipalities but it is not clear on the route. It would obviously help this article to have a map and/or a description of its route. doncram (talk) 21:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, there's at least one specific deviation of the Carretera Central route vs. Puerto Rico Highway 14 and Puerto Rico Highway 1. The historic Arenas Bridge brings Puerto Rico Highway 735 across the Rio de la Plata, about half a mile from the modern PR 1 route, as can be seen from approximate coordinates in the Arenas Bridge article and specific information that it carries PR 735. For such an old route built with different grade and width standards from modern highways, it would be reasonable to expect many deviations. That the Arenas Bridge is close does seem to support the idea those modern highways follow the approximate route though, at least at that one point. doncram (talk) 23:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

routing decisions

It seems there was routing via Cayey, Puerto Rico while it could have gone via Cidra, Puerto Rico, from this google books snippet: "The economic literature of Latin America: a tentative bibliography‎ - Page 222, by Harvard University. Bureau for Economic Research in Latin America - Business & Economics - 1935 In El Fomento de Puerto Rico: vol. 2, pp. 131-38 (1864). 5224. Por qué la carretera central pasa por Cayey y no por Cidra. In Boletín Histórico de Puerto" Probably there was controversy; the building of a major road would have big economic effects of course. doncram (talk) 21:19, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

map and elevation profile

I understand an Open Source map of the route portion just listed on the National Register of Historic Places is available, I hope to see a map or link to it added here! (User:Werewombat, are you involved? I am not sure how to identify contributors within Open Source.)

Hey it would be really helpful if the article could have an elevation profile (currently a redlink) included, for the whole length of the highway or just for the NRHP-listed historic district portion (which does seem to go entirely up and over the Cordillera Central (Puerto Rico)'s passes.

I just learned that Google Maps does have an elevation profile feature, e.g. this Google maps "walking" mode view of a route from Caguas to Juana Diaz. But better profile-generators are available. See Comparison of bicycle route planning websites which shows mapping services having elevation profiles. E.g. I quickly generated Bikeroll's profile of a route from Caguas to Juana Diaz. Hmm, that profile is for a route mostly going from east to west (and somewhat south) in its orientation; it would probably be better to show a left-to-right profile corresponding to a west-to-east route instead.

Any which way, it sure would be nice to have both a route map and an elevation profile in the Carretera article! --Doncram (talk) 23:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

@Doncram: Check this out. Pages 37-40 have maps. You can then request a digital map (based on the text info on those pages) from the USRD wiki team. Mercy11 (talk) 00:22, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Wow, thanks! That source has a lot, and I see it is in Spanish language from page 1 to 41, but then most of the text is given in English, also, in pages 43 on. I learned about a map of the newly-NRHP-listed portion from User:Ipoellet (who might share more here?), i.e. this map on Open Source. Not sure, but it looks like "Werewombat" there might have mostly generated it, and I just sent a message to them within Open Source's message system. Hopefully someone might be willing to generate an image that can be included directly into this article, and/or links to Open Source can be given? It would also be useful to have map(s) of the complete route including in Ponce and in San Juan, not just the mountain portion covered in the NRHP listing. cheers, --Doncram (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Werewombat is me: different platforms, different username. I was going to build a "relation" (OSM jargon for the same sort of object I linked you to before) for the whole Carretera, but the NRHP nomination discussed several different routings for the "tails" of the road in San Juan and Ponce. In San Juan, at different times the starting point was regarded to be at La Fortaleza, the Marina, the Puerta de Tierra, so forth. Similar in Ponce, with routings going down to Playa or to the Port of Ponce. So I sort of gave it up in confusion, but if it's useful to you I can take it up again. The graphic used in maps in the NRHP nomination seems to run from Puerta de Tierra to Playa, so I can use that configuration. — Ipoellet (talk) 00:52, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

• this may also help with maps. Mercy11 (talk) 00:54, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ipoellet: I am very familiar with CC around Ponce, So don't give up confused and frustrated. Feel free to ask me any questions you might have. tc, Mercy11 (talk) 00:57, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! Not confused and frustrated so much as that OSM and Wikimedia have so much low-hanging fruit that when I come to ambiguous things it's easier to just move on to something else. Anyhow, that last document you linked seems to follow the same alignment as the NRHP nomination. I think (fingers crossed) it gives me what I need to build the relation, but it's good to know I have a resource! I might not have the relation ready til next week due to RL issues, though. — Ipoellet (talk) 01:05, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

I am just glad I could help! tc, Mercy11 (talk) 01:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Oh, okay, good, obviously I didn't fully understand before, and I am happy that Ipoellet is on the job! About how to show the route, it makes sense that there is ambiguity about the ends. The real job back in late 1800s was to build the one main road through the mountains and to cross the rivers, while multiple roads in San Juan and Ponce were developing anyhow and the exact official route at the ends, if there was one, might not have mattered much. Although perhaps it could matter to local merchants say in terms of which street got macadamized, paid by Spain, on its way to one final quay in a port vs. a different end point. So showing any one route, or showing multiple forking routes in one image, would be fine, as long as any specific known variation over time and any general uncertainty about exact routing is explained or asserted in footnoting or whatever. Thanks! --Doncram (talk) 13:48, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

@Doncram: you are right on the money with the historical perspective. To understand that road today, it's important to look at it in the framework of the years when it was being built. IAE, as for the northern and southern terminus, they may have changed a lot, but not enough to affect a map of the road as it exists today, bc such map will be crammed into a small (2"x 2"?) space in, most likely, the Infobox. Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 00:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

@Mercy11 and Doncram: I have completed a stab at marking the entire Carretera Central on OSM here. (The separate relation just for the NRHP listed segment still exists separately.) Please note the "description" and "source:name" fields for some discretionary calls I made along the line, although the details I was sweating over will not be visible at the map scale Mercy11 is talking about. @Mercy11: One spot where on-the-ground eyes will be very useful is the new PR-14 bridge under construction at the boundary of Coamo and Juana Díaz, which is too new to appear on Google/Bing/ESRI aerial imagery. Has the new bridge been completed and put into service? If so, what has been done with the old bridge and its approach roads? Or has it been held up in the aftermath of María? If you are able give me information to update the map it would be most useful. — Ipoellet (talk) 18:30, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Wow, that is great!

Tiny comment: Your description there is very clear ("Route of the XIX century Carretera Central, on historic infrastructure where open to vehicles, or modern roads on roughly the same alignment. "Connector" segments are off the historic alignment but enable continuous bidirectional travel.") That is where it would be good to include a caveat about the variation of the historic route. Perhaps add something like "The historic alignment varied over time in its definitions of exact end points in Ponce and in San Juan (see National Register of Historic Places nomination document), and in its exact routing through the Cordillera Central mountains; the displayed route here corresponds to one historic alignment as can best be figured out from sources named and available in 2019." Or maybe you could say that the exact route through the mountains as of 1898 is very well-known in these sources, or that the exact route through the mountains was very stable from 1898 through 19xx, because the road was extremely well-built and was limited by the expensive grade-cutting and exact placement of 17(?) bridges through the mountains, and there was not further significant investment in any route changes until 19xx, or that there is no record of significant investment which could have changed the route until 19yy. I don't know what your sources told you.

Awesome! --Doncram (talk) 18:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately the fields in OSM are character-limited. I was squeezing pretty hard to get in what I did. Personally, I'm inclined to think that if someone is that interested they will go to the source listed. — Ipoellet (talk) 20:36, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ipoellet: I would had loved to do a little physical eyes-on-the-ground survey for the bridge (I believe you meant the bridge over "Rio Descalabrado", aka, "Rio Cañas Arriba/Rio Cañas Abajo"). Unfortunately, I just returned from there and don't have a date for my next trip yet. Will keep you posted when I know for sure when, but it will likely be several months at this point and, by then, I fear any updates I might have could already be either obsolete or moot -- Sorry, kind of bad timing. However, if this helps, I just did some research on the digital newspapers that cover the area, and there was nothing. My assumption for now is that the temporary by-pass is still in place.

BTW, I had all the "WOW!" comments Doncram had about the map. It's awesome! One small observation: are the road segments listed under "Members" supposed to be in spatial order as you travel the road from either SJ to Ponce or from Ponce to SJ? ...because they aren't. Mercy11 (talk) 00:03, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Too bad! Somewhere I had gotten the impression that you actually live in PR. The members are not in spatial order, or any other order that I have ever figured out. I have yet to figure out what criteria OSM uses to order the members of a relation. So the members list isn't terribly useful to the casual user, but someone with more sophistication and tools than me should be able to do useful things with it. — Ipoellet (talk) 00:40, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

@The Eloquent Peasant:, Please see the eyes-on-the-ground request above. Any chance you will be anywhere near Juana Diaz this weekend? Thx, Mercy11 (talk) 14:19, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

@Mercy11: I just saw this message today. Hope you're all doing well. Maybe next time I'm there.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 04:33, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@The Eloquent Peasant:, great! Mercy11 (talk) 12:26, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Ipoellet: Hi. I saw the map on openstreetmap and it looks very good. Should we put it up on this infobox?--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 22:42, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

@The Eloquent Peasant: I have no objection to putting it in the infobox. And thank you for the compliment. — Ipoellet (talk) 01:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ipoellet:I'm not exactly sure how to do it but maybe I'll just make a screenshot of it and upload it. I see there's another way that you and others have added OpenStreetMaps to infoboxes but I've yet to figure that out.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 01:33, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

List of historic sites along Carretera Central

Hey, how about a list-article covering historic sites along the Carretera Central? Actually this could look a lot like the José A. Mari Mut's "DE SAN JUAN A PONCE POR LA CARRETERA CENTRAL guidebook which Mercy11 linked to above. That features, repeatedly, a map of sites which looks like a Google maps output, which is similar to the output of the GeoGroup "Map all coordinates" feature (now available only in OSM output, slightly different) in most NRHP list-articles.

I worked on List of historic sites preserved along Rochambeau's route, which covers 35 NRHP-listed and other sites along the route of French general Rochambeau in 1781 and 1782. Not the best example, perhaps there are better/other ones to serve as a model? Corresponding to that is Category:Historic places on the Washington–Rochambeau Revolutionary Route.

E.g. Teatro Tapia, Arenas Bridge, etc. Maybe the existing articles could be put into a category, perhaps Category:Historic sites along the Carretera Central? --Doncram (talk) 00:14, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea, but strikes me as pushing very close to the boundary between Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. If you pursue it, keep an eye out to keep it encyclopedic. But such a thing with a more guidebook flavor would be an excellent addition to Wikivoyage, too. — Ipoellet (talk) 00:43, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I see your point. Hmm. Narrowing it to structures strictly or arguably part of the Carretera Central would be more obviously encyclopedic, perhaps. Structures of the Carretera Central could be directly included in a section in the article, or naturally could be split out to a separate list. To include the bridges and the maintenance worker housing structures including the "Casilla de Caminero" in Ponce and other similar buildings covered by José A. Mari Mut.

Is Cayey Bridge, built in 1891, part of the Carretera Central?

Hmm, seems like NO. From the NRHP nomination: The Cayey Bridge is "in use over the Guamani River on kilometer 1.0 of Route 15, on the old highway from Cayey to Guayama [...]. ... The Cayey Bridge served as part of the 19th century highway between Cayey and Guayama. It became the only highway to reach the eastern coastal region of Puerto Rico during the Spanish sovereignty. The bridge was fabricated by the prominent firm Nicrisse & Decluve of La Louviere, in Belgium for 19,343.78 pesos.".

General Mendez Vigo Bridge, near Coamo, is. YES.

General Norzagaray Bridge in San Juan, built 1855, well before 1898 completion of the route, was part of it. YES.

La Liendre Bridge (1877), probably. YES. Cites Historic bridges of Puerto Rico MPS document.

Puente de las Calabazas built 1882. YES.

Puente Río Portugués in Ponce, rebuilt with metal in 1876, was part of the Carretera. YES.

Maybe some of the other bridges in List of bridges on the National Register of Historic Places in Puerto Rico, i am not sure.

Based on their coordinates viewed in OSM, perhaps one or both of the following new draft article items:

• Puente No. 6 (aka La Concepcion Bridge, 1856). From its NRHP doc, "It was built as part of the Rio Piedras-Caguas highway program" I am not sure if this might be on the Carretera Cental. YES, based on zooming in upon its location in OSM, and comparing to User:Ipoellet's "relation" map.
• Río Matón Bridge (1886). YES.

I created several of those bridge articles, was probably inconsistent about noting about Carretera Central.

--Doncram (talk) 12:30, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Ipoellet, for creating the "relation" map. It just now enabled me to determine that Puente No. 6 was part of the Carretera Central, and it already allowed me to easily and definitively rule out many other PR bridges in List of bridges on the National Register of Historic Places in Puerto Rico based on their locations seen in the GeoGroup OSM map for them all.

Okay, I think I will add a short list of these bridges into a new section of this article. It is not enough to split out into a separate list-article, but it is relevant to include into this article, IMHO. --Doncram (talk) 01:02, 18 May 2019 (UTC)