Talk:Carlos Loyzaga

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Mythical Five

Carlos Loyzaga's Individual Award was never called FIBA World Championship All-Star and FIBA Asia Championship All-Star ... the term FIBA Asia Championship All-Star alone clashes with the FIBA Asia All-Star events that took place from 1997 to 2000... Loyzaga's award is always called Mythical Five ... its not excuses... its presenting the proper name of the award... --peads (talk) 09:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Five Children not Four

The original listing of 4 children has led to widespread misinformation, Caloy has 5 children, Joaquin/Chito, Ernesto/Joey, Carmen/Princess, Teresa and Carla/Bing and caused distress to the family, including Caloy. Please stop reverting these changes. http://www.gameface.ph/showthread.php?28854-Carlos-Loyzaga-The-Great-Difference lists the nicknames of the 5 children as they were known in 1972 in the book "Philippine Sports Greats" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray Loyzaga (talk • contribs) 01:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Children

Source requested and provided

Can anyone source his children? The source I've duplicated on the applicable line states 4 children, but another editor is claiming a fifth, a daughter Carmen known as Princess. Meters (talk) 01:29, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've given you a citation above. here are more:

http://www.philstar.com/sports/619289/chitos-inspiration "Chito is the oldest of five children."

The problem with providing more references is that there are so many that are wrong, since they focus on the 4 that are somewhat famous. Princess shunned any limelight and mostly stayed home and supported the others. I expect that there will be a family photo published from the funeral on Monday. If not I'll send you one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray Loyzaga (talk • contribs) 02:02, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The source you listed in your previous post is a user-generated blog and thus is not an acceptable source. Please read WP:RS, particularly WP:USERGENERATED. As I already said on your talk page, if you have an reliable source that lists five children, than add it to the article yourself and list the fifth child. As I also said, I don't have access to the book. Thus I can't verify the information or add the source (or the purported fifth child) to the article myself. All I can do is use the sources we have in the article, which state that there were 4 children. Meters (talk) 02:40, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As for the new ref you have provided in this thread, why don't you just add it to the article yourself? It supports the fact that there are 5 children, even if it does not name them. Meters (talk) 02:59, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are kidding right? You've deleted every comment I've ever made, why should I have confidence that you wouldn't delete the next one? Why should I have confidence that you would accept the last reference when you have found issues with all the previous ones? None of the original Wikipedia article references explicitly mention that they are naming all the children. The only statement in those references was "Loyzaga is the father of former basketball players Chito and Joey, as well as actresses Bing and Teresa." Which is naming Caloy's "famous" children, not all his children. Why on Earth did you delete it rather than asking politely for more information? I would have sent you an image from Bing's facebook page where she reposts a letter from Princess to her Dad that states: "Thank you for getting upset when reporters wrote about your 4 children, neglecting to mention your Princess". This really shouldn't have been that hard. Ray Loyzaga (talk) 03:28, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to the reference to the book "Philippine Sports Greats", Google books provides a search mechanism for all the books they have scanned.So if you type "Philippine sports greats princess" into a books.google.com search box it will return a snippet of page 220: "Augmenting the Loyzaga tribe were Cachito, their eldest, Russo, Princess, Duchess, and Bingbing. Meanwhile, all of Caloy's relatives, including his mother, migrated to Australia. Caloy chose to stay because he felt that it was in this country ..." which is exactly as reported by the first citation I gave.Ray Loyzaga (talk) 03:41, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The line had no sources. When I found a source on another paragraph that verified someof hte information I copied the ref and restored as much information as could be verified from that ref. There are no refs in the article that state there were 5 children (in fact at least 1 explicitly says there were 4 children). I've asked you repeatedly to add your new refs to the article to substantiate the fifth child and her name. Do it or don't. Up to you. I've tagged the name with a cn for now. If it isn't sourced it will likely eventually be removed by someone. Meters (talk) 04:12, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"citeds sources state only 4 children, and no mention of Carment" There is a difference between "state" and "mention", the listed citations mention some of his children, they don't explicitly state that they are talking about all his children. Hence your comment is in error. And her name is Carmen, not CarmentRay Loyzaga (talk) 04:44, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The "t" typo was fixed a full 20 minutes before you pointed it out here. Fine, the aources only "list" or "mention" 4 names. I'll change it, but since you have a source that gives her name, just add it. As I explained on your talk page, I'm not going to do it because it appears that she has shunned publicity. Meters (talk) 05:47, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I should try to de-escalate this by replaying the timelines that led to this mess. Last night I was reading the many comments and articles that had been written about my uncle on the day of his passing, I had finalised my flights to attend the funeral and was browsing some of the family facebook entries. In one entry Princess, his eldest daughter reprinted a letter she sent him on his birthday a few years ago, it was basically a list of "Thank you" statements. One of them stated: "Thank you for getting upset at reporters when they wrote about your four children, neglecting to mention your Princess." I thought that was a rather distressing and disappointing thing to happen to her so I checked on what Caloy's Wikipedia page stated. I found it stated "the couple had four children: Chito, Joey, Bing and Teresa Loyzaga.", which was not only wrong, but was being cited as factual repeatedly in other articles. I sought to correct this, and posted the simple change of adding Carmen's name to the list and amending the four to a five for the number of children, I had never edited a Wikipedia page before and didn't bother registering. A few hours later the editor Khendygirl undid my changes, citing an article written post Caloy's death, likely using the misinformation existing on Wikipedia at the time. At this point I can only guess that Khendygirl either believes I am mistaken, or deliberately vandalising the page. When I woke up, I noted the reversion of my changes and put them back, noting in my comments that he does indeed have 5 children and that this 4 children misinformation had actually been a problem for the family, I also enrolled as an editor under my real name Ray Loyzaga, a rather public profile that has thousands of references on the 'net, and unsurprisingly I am the same age as Caloy's children. Some 15 minutes later, my changes were deleted by Meters, claiming that my comments weren't supported by the "sources", and ignoring the likelihood that the sources were just repeating the misinformation they found on Wikipedia. At this point I can only hazard to guess what they thought my motivation was, I was identifying as part of the family, using a rather public profile, and apparently writing crap. I reverted the deletion and pointed to a blog post that quoted a book on "Philippines Sports Greats" that mentions her explicitly, asserted that I was his nephew and that the original Wikipedia info was wrong. Meters then deletes it again, citing that a blog post is an insufficient reference. So let's imagine what my role is here, a vandal or mistaken? Somehow my vandalism was so well planned that I planted the seeds in an article written in 2009 somehow convincing or impersonating someone called Elisabeth Celis to write a large article in a rather popular Philippine sports site. That doesn't seem very plausible. Or was I just mistaken, but going through all the trouble of identifying as part of the family all to establish the name of someone who isn't me as his daughter. Really? Several repeats followed. Even articles with Chito himself saying he is one of 5 children wasn't enough to convince. Apparently I had to find an online article that explicitly mentioned Princess in a mainstream publication that hadn't been misled by the misinformation that existed on the original Wikipedia page. Even pointing out that books.google.com produced the same quote from the book as the blog was insufficient. At this point it is left with at "citation needed" tag, even though there is no plausible reason why I would be doing anything other than correcting misinformation that has been widely propagated by wikipedia. On Monday Caloy's funeral will likely yield some press photos of the family. Princess, Joey flew out from Sydney to be there. Perhaps this sad indictment of the way information is "managed" here can end then.Rloyzaga (talk) 08:03, 28 January 2016 (UTC) It should further be noted that the "blogger" in this case is an award winning sports journalist for The Philippine Daily Inquirer - Beth Celis who regularly does book reviews on sports biographies, particularly basketball.220.239.119.198 (talk) 22:04, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reclassified as a start

This article has been reclassified as a start due to its level of detail. Capitalistroadster (talk) 04:26, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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