Talk:Caral–Supe civilization/Archive 1

Note on article title

An anon has repeatedly disputed the article title here; I'm very much hoping that he or she figures out how the talk pages work and ceases posting observations directly in articles. First:

We need to describe the academic dispute, but attacks on the credibility of researchers violate WP:BLP and cannot be tolerated.

Re the name:

WP:A: "English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia." This doesn't mean we can't use the Spanish sources (I don't read Spanish, but no doubt we can find someone to help); it does mean that what the English sources call the civilization is what must be given primacy. The most recent English sources call it Norte Chico; the Spanish wiki has a Civilización Caral, which is probably appropriate there because that's what their sources call it.
Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Thus, as important as the name provided by the primary researchers, is that used by reliable, summative, secondary sources. The most complete survey of the literature in English (AFAIK) is from Mann in 1491 and Science. He uses Norte Chico, and this page sticks with him.
"Norte Chico civilization" may create confusion given the Chilean region of the same name, but "Caral(-Supe) civilization" is far more problematic: it suggests to the reader that the Caral site is the oldest, largest, and/or that it was politically dominant. The first appears to be wrong, the second is equivocal, and there is no evidence for the third. And it wasn't the first studied site, if that's the argument—Aspero was. Marskell 18:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

R: Note on article title

"* We need to describe the academic dispute, but attacks on the credibility of researchers violate WP:BLP and cannot be tolerated."

Do you know who is Betty Meggers? She said: "The fact that Haas and Creamer are accessible to the media and speak English has facilitated their usurpation of credit for identifying early urbanism on the coast of Peru, with its revolutionary implications for theories of the evolution of complex society. They deserve the opportunity to defend themselves, but the damage has been done." http://caralperu.typepad.com/caral_civilization_peru/

Re: Re the name:

"English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia."

Well, you can see: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal_ing.htm

"* Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Thus, as important as the name provided by the primary researchers, is that used by reliable, summative, secondary sources. The most complete survey of the literature in English (AFAIK) is from Mann in 1491 and Science. He uses Norte Chico, and this page sticks with him.

Does Charles Mann use Norte Chico? "Field Museum hosts Charles Mann, bestselling author of 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (...) The other Field Museum archaeologist who will share the stage with Mann is Jonathan Haas, PhD, MacArthur Curator, Anthropology of the Americas. Dr. Haas’ current work is in the Norte Chico Region of Peru." http://www.fieldmuseum.org/museum_info/press/press_mann.htm

"Norte Chico civilization" may create confusion given the Chilean region of the same name, but "Caral(-Supe) civilization" is far more problematic: it suggests to the reader that the Caral site is the oldest, largest, and/or that it was politically dominant."

No, in the archaeological practice, the site-tipe gives the name for the society/culture/civilization. Examples: Chavin (Chavin de Huantar), Cupisnique (Cupisnique), Paracas (Paracas), Huari (Huari), et ceterae. The name of the civilization is Caral, and the name of the archaeological site is "Sacred City of Caral".

Shady is studying the Caral civilization in the field since 1994. Haas and Creamer, since 2002.

Observation

It is not correct to use the term “Norte Chico” for the first Andean civilization. The name of the first Andean civilization is “Caral”. The name Caral was taken from the Quechua toponym of a village located in the Supe Valley, in the department of Lima, Peru.

Ruth Shady began research in the Supe Valley in 1994. In 1996 she started excavating in the archaeological site of Caral, and this excavation work continues to the present. In 1997 she announced for the first time the age of the site and, therefore, of Caral, the first Andean civilization, in the book “La ciudad sagrada de Caral-Supe en los albores de la civilización en el Perú” (full text available at http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Libros/Arqueologia/ciudad_sagrada/caratula.htm) and in the article “Caral, la cité ensevelie” which was published in number 340 of the French magazine Archèologia (http://www.archeologia-magazine.com/). In both publications Shady presented an integrated approach to the formation of civilization, in which she includes the civilization of Caral within the so-called north-central area of Peru (made up of the coastal valleys of Santa, Nepeña, Sechín, Culebras, Huarmey, Fortaleza, Pativilca, Supe, Huaura, Chancay, and Chillón; the Andean valleys of Callejon de Huaylas and Callejon de Conchucos together with the altiplano or high plateau region of Junín; and the headwaters of the Marañón and Huallaga rivers). Since then, in just recognition of Shady’s work, in Peru the first Andean civilization has been known by the name of Caral. It was not until July 2000 that the North American archaeologists Jonathan Haas and Winifred Creamer contributed funds from their institutions to date 12 samples taken by Shady in the Sacred City of Caral. The results of the radiocarbon dating paid for by Haas and Creamer, together with other samples tested independently merely corroborated the affirmations made by Shady in 1997. Although Haas and Creamer never researched in Caral, because of their economic contribution they were included by Shady as co-authors of the article “Dating Caral, a pre-Ceramic site in the Supe valley on the central coast of Peru” about the Sacred City of Caral and the datings obtained, published in 2001 in Science magazine. The publication of this article received coverage in the world press, which Haas and Creamer took advantage of to present themselves, incorrectly, as the discoverers and researchers of Caral (See, for example, Creamer’s web site in this reference: http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/presskits/wcjo/researcher.html).

Since their unethical presentation in 2001, Haas and Creamer have not linked themselves again with Shady, the main researcher of the origin of civilization in Peru. But bearing in mind that Shady had mentioned to them, in July 2000, the need to do research in the valleys adjacent to the Supe Valley (Fortaleza, Pativilca, and Huaura) in order to get a better understanding of the expressions of the Caral civilization in those places, for this purpose Haas and Creamer created an archaeological research project geographically superimposed on that which Shady is carrying out in the Supe Valley, calling it “Norte Chico”, which includes the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, Supe, and Huaura (although they have never actually intervened in the Supe Valley, where the Caral civilization built its most extensive, voluminous, and important settlements). Since then, they have referred to the Caral civilization by the new name of Norte Chico so that it appears that they are researching for the first time a “new, previously unknown civilization,” (See, for example, the application for funds submitted by Haas and Creamer to the National Science Foundation, http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0211014 and http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0211020 and the summary of Haas’s work in http://www.fieldmuseum.org/research_collections/anthropology/research_sa.htm)

Since their interference in Peru, Haas and Creamer have started a campaign for the earliest Andean civilization to be known internationally as “Norte Chico”. This new name does not in any way reflect the values of the Peruvian culture as Caral does (a Quechua name from the locality). The term also confuses people about the area concerned, because “Norte Chico” is the name for the Chilean regions of Atacama and Coquimbo (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_%28Chile%29); and in Peru it is the informal-political name for a group of provinces in the department of Lima, namely Barranca, Huaura, and Huaral (where the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, Supe, Huaura, and Chancay are located) (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_%28Per%C3%BA%29); this is all the more erroneous bearing in mind that the earliest Andean civilization was formed in the north-central area of Peru, as defined above, which includes not only the coastal region but also the Andean highland and Andean jungle regions.

The term “Norte Chico” merely serves Haas and Creamer’s interest in hiding the fact that research has been performed by Peruvians, since 1994, on the formation of civilization in this area. Haas and Creamer are really studying the manifestations of the Caral civilization in the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, and Huaura, so it is not necessary for them to use a new nomenclature; they should respect the term that has already been established.

Readers are invited to take these observations into consideration to prevent the confusions promoted by Haas and Creamer. The information that is being spread under the name of “Civilization of the Norte Chico” refers, in fact, to the Caral Civilization.

R:

On site-type, why not "Aspero civilization"? It was documented in 1973. You write "Haas and Creamer are really studying the manifestations of the Caral civilization in the valleys of Fortaleza, Pativilca, and Huaura..." Do you not see enormous potential for confusion here? Particularly the temporal aspect of "manifestations of"? A general reader is going to come across that and assume that the civilization was first manifest on the Supe, and that Caral was the dominant center. Haas' dates indicate that the Fortaleza and Pativilca may have been settled first. And if, as he suggests, there are 100 hectare sites on the northern rivers we have no idea what, if any, was the dominant center. You don't like Haas et al. evidently, but this page can't ignore their research. As for "Sacred city of..." it sounds mighty odd to my secular ear. On Wiki we describe the Qu'ran, not the "Noble Qu'ran", for instance.

But this is all just my musings. What matters in terms of Wikipedia policy is that in 2004 Nature saw fit to publish research with the term Norte Chico used. At the same time, CNN and BBC were willing to deploy the name. You are suggesting that it was the ambitious machinations of certain researchers that landed the term on CNN and BBC but, even if this Wikipedia editor sympathizes, it's now fait accompli: these are standard English sources and it is not Wikipedia's place to break from them. You believe Mann is a suspect source because he shared a stage with Haas—again, policy here tells me he's just the sort of reliable, secondary source this page needs.

"The fact that Haas and Creamer are accessible to the media and speak English has facilitated their usurpation of credit for identifying early urbanism..." We can say "Jones has accused Smith of usurpation of credit" with a good source, but NOT "Smith usurped credit", unless we have very robust, multiple sourcing. (You are sourcing that statement to a blog, which is insufficient.) Potentially slanderous statements are an absolute no-go here. If Shady's open letter or statements from Meggers have been published on a .edu site or something similar, we can consider using it in the last section of the article.

As a last point, I have not found a Brittanica entry specific to the civilization. When they finally draft a page whatever term they use may become canonical; if you're affiliated with a University, as I'm guessing, send them a letter. Disputes of this sort must be enormously frustrating to the non-English speaker but, in my amateur opinion, any professional can play the game. Marskell 10:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To partly address your concerns I have:

Bumped Caral-Supe civilization to a bolded first line alternative.
Added "The name is disputed. English language sources use Norte Chico (Spanish: "Little North") per Haas et al. Caral or Caral-Supe are more likely to be found in Spanish language sources per Shady. This article follows usage in recent English language sources and employs Norte Chico, but the title is not definitive. Peruvian Norte Chico should not be confused with the Chilean region of the same name." in a footnote; and
Added "Peruvian archeologists, led by Ruth Shady Solís, provided the first documentation of the civilization in the late 1990s, with work at Caral" sourced to the book you have provided above. Marskell 12:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a reliable source (not the blog) that states Haas and Creamer had not actually worked at the sites when the 2001 paper was published? Marskell 12:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A last idea: start an account, assign an e-mail address to it (any one you like), then click on the bluelinked "Marskell." In the list to the left you'll see "e-mail this user"; click it and you can send me an e-mail. It might be better to communicate that way, as I'm concerned this conversation contravenes Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Marskell 13:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More notes

Your article is getting better Please note: "In the Norte Chico we see almost no visual arts. No sculpture, no carving or bas-relief, almost no painting or drawing—the interiors are completely bare. What we do see are these huge mounds—and textiles." You can see: http://www.arqueologia.com.ar/peru/caral_f.htm

Note, the page has: "While visual arts appear absent, instrumental music may have been present: thirty-two flutes, crafted from pelican bone, have been discovered." What I'm curious about is the art directly engraved on the flutes. Is it thoroughly dated to the era in question? I've asked a Spanish speaker to read your source.

Also, anon, a fellow user has translated:

El número de centros urbanos (17), identificado en el valle de Supe, y su magnitud, requirieron de una gran cantidad de mano de obra y de los excedentes, para su edificación, mantenimiento, remodelación y enterramiento. Si consideramos exclusivamente la capacidad productiva de este pequeño valle, esa inversión no habría podido ser realizada sin la participación de las comunidades de los valles vecinos.

As:

The number of urban centers (17) identified in the Supe Valley, and their magnitude, requires a great quantity of surplus labor for their construction, maintenance, remodeling and burial. If we consider exclusively the productive capacity of this small valley, this investment could not have been realized without the participation of the communities of neighboring valleys.

I would like to use this to buttress the suggestion in the lead that Shady "provided the first extensive documentation of the civilization." Do you agree with this translation? Marskell 20:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flutes: more are from condor bones (Vultur gryphus) than pelican bones (Pelecanus sp.) The translation is ok - You can fly the Supe valley with Google Earth and see the scarcity of land in its central zone, where the Sacred City of Caral was built.

Anon, I can only add "Condor bones" if you point me to a reliable source, with publication info etc. This http://www.arqueologia.com.ar/peru/caral_f.htm seems just great for info on the flutes, but the website does not provide proper attribution (according to a Spanish language reader here). Similarly, the blog (http://caralperu.typepad.com/caral_civilization_peru/) could be a great source of info, but: who's the publisher? who's vouching for the information? The "about" section says absolutely nothing.

And do you mind my asking who I am talking to? Is it Ruth Shady? A student who mimics her words? Or "just some guy", like me? Don't answer here: I'm timmarskell AT yahoo DOT ca. Wikipedia being what it is, this page is already at the top of Google for a search of "Norte Chico" (see here). I very much want to present the info fairly. Marskell 22:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Don't answer here": I'm a peruvian journalist. In 2001 I wrote a note about the discover published in Science... giving the credit to Haas and Creamer. After, I known the Shady's work. Since then, I have interviewed to several archaeologists on the subject, includes Shady and Norte Chico Archaeological Project team members. Only later I have taken a open position in favor of Shady. I found your article reviewing the information on Caral civilization in the web.. I have in my notes that the flutes was exposed in Lima with the information that are of condor and pelican bones. About the blog, I knew it in a conversation with archaeologists, but I did not know who opened it.

Thanks, anon. Unfortunately, I can't use the blog, though I'd really like to. You can see what I've done in the "Research controversies" section. I cannot say "A is right and B is wrong", but the quotes selected speak for themselves. Marskell 13:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dirigido al anonimo

Hola, anon; I've helped a wee bit on this article, and have been reading your entries. Since you aren't a registered user, I'm not sure how I can contact you to ask if you might be able to come up with any Peruvian news sources to verify this woman's connections to Sendero Luminoso ?[1] If you have time, or are aware of any sources, favor de contactarme al User talk:SandyGeorgia, or por mi e-mail. Gracias! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure

Thanks, if you google her name, you can find more, but I'm looking for Peruvian press verification, if there is any. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Primary sources

In order of appearance

SHADY, Ruth

1993 Del Arcaico al Formativo en los Andes Centrales. In: Revista Andina. Centro Bartolomé de las Casas. Cusco.

1995 La Neolitización en Los Andes Centrales y los Orígenes del Sedentarismo, la Domesticación y la Distinción Social. In: Saguntum, Revista del Departamento de Prehistoria y Arqueología, 28, Universidad de Valencia, España.

Done1997 La Ciudad Sagrada de Caral - Supe en los Albores de la Civilización en el Perú. Fondo Editorial, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, 75 p. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Libros/Arqueologia/ciudad_sagrada/caratula.htm)

1997 Caral. La Cité Ensevelie, In: Archéologia, N 340, pags. 58-65, France. (http://www.faton.fr/scripts/index_numero.asp?id_titre=2&id_pro=340)

1999 La Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe. Museo de Arqueología y Antropología Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos. Lima, 14 p.

SHADY, Ruth y Sonia LÓPEZ

1999 Ritual de Enterramiento de un Recinto en el Sector Residencial A en Caral-Supe. In: Boletín de Arqueología, Pontificia Universidad Católica del Perú, No.3: 187-212.

SHADY, Ruth

1999 La Religión como una forma de cohesión social y manejo político en los albores de la civilización en el Perú. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 9, Lima, pp. 13-15. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/1999_N09/religion.htm)

1999 Flautas de Caral: El conjunto musical más antiguo de América. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 10, Lima, pp. 4-5. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/1999_n10/a03.pdf)

1999 El Sustento Económico del Surgimiento de la Civilización en el Perú. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 11, Lima, pp. 2-4. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/1999_n11/a02.pdf)

1999 Los Orígenes de la Civilización y la Formación del Estado en el Perú: Las evidencias arqueológicas de Caral-Supe (Primera Parte). In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 12, Lima, pp. 2-4. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/1999_n12/a02.pdf)

SHADY, Ruth, Marco MACHACUAY y Rocío ARAMBURÚ

2000 Un Geoglifo de Estilo Sechín en el valle de Supe. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 1, Lima, pp. 2-11. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n01/a01.pdf)

SHADY, Ruth

2000 Los orígenes de la Civilización y la Formación del Estado en el Perú. Las evidencias arqueológicas de Caral - Supe (Segunda Parte). In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 2, Lima, pp. 2-7. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/2000_N02/origenes.htm)

2000 Práctica Mortuoria de la Sociedad de Caral - Supe, durante el Arcaico Tardío. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, N 3, Lima, pp. 2-15. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/2000_N03/pract_mortuoria.htm)

SHADY, Ruth, Marco MACHACUAY y Sonia LÓPEZ

2000 Recuperando La Historia del Altar del Fuego Sagrado. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología. Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos. Lima, año 3, N 4 pp 2 - 19. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/2000_N04/reantropologia.htm)

SHADY, Ruth y Miriam GONZÁLEZ

2000 Una Tumba Circular Profanada de la Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n5, Lima, pp. 2-9. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n05/a01.pdf)

SHADY, Ruth, Marco MACHACUAY y Rocío ARAMBURÚ

2000 La Plaza Circular del Templo Mayor de Caral: Su presencia en Supe y en el área Norcentral del Perú. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 8, Lima, pp. 2-25.

SHADY, Ruth

2000 Sustento Socioeconómico del Estado Prístino de Supe Perú: Las evidencias de Caral - Supe. In: Arqueología y Sociedad. Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos. Lima, N 13, pp. 49-66.

SHADY, Ruth, Camilo DOLORIER, Fanny MONTESINOS y Lyda CASAS

2000 Los Orígenes de la Civilización en el Perú: el área Norcentral y el valle de Supe durante el Arcaico Tardío. In: Arqueología y Sociedad. Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima, N 13, pp. 13-48.

SHADY, Ruth, Martha PRADO, Carlos LEYVA, Jorge MORENO, Carlos JIMENEZ y Celso LLIMPE

2000 Las Flautas de Caral-Supe: Aproximaciones al Estudio Acústico-Arqueológico del Conjunto de Flautas más Antiguo de América. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 11, Lima, pp. 2-9. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n11/a01.pdf)

SHADY, Ruth y Marco MACHACUAY

2000 El Altar del Fuego Sagrado del Templo Mayor de la Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 12, Lima, pp. 2-18. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n12/a01.pdf)

SHADY, Ruth

2001 Caral-Supe y la Costa Norcentral del Perú: La cuna de la civilización y la formación del estado prístino. In: Historia de la cultura peruana I. Fondo Editorial del Congreso del Perú. Lima, pp. 45-87.

SHADY, Ruth

2001 La Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe y los Orígenes de la Civilización Andina. Museo de Arqueología y Antropología de la Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima, 48 pp.

SHADY, Ruth, Jonathan HAAS y Winifred CREAMER

Done2001 Dating Caral, a Preceramic Site in the Supe Valley on the Central Coast of Peru. In: SCIENCE, vol 292: 723-726. (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/292/5517/723)

SHADY, Ruth

2001 Caral: La primera ciudad del nuevo mundo. En: Revista Copé, vol. XI - N 28, Lima, pp. 1-6

SHADY, Ruth, Pedro NOVOA y Dolores BUITRÓN

2001 Artefactos simbólicos de Caral-Supe y su importancia en la tradición cultural andina. En Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 4, n 4, Lima, pp. 87-94.

SHADY, Ruth

2001 Caral, la Ciudadela más Antigua de América. In: Revista Rumbos, año V, nro. 29, Lima, pp. 72-76.

2002 Caral, Supe: La civilización más antigua de América. En: Revista del Instituto de Investigaciones Histórico Sociales, año VI, nro. 9, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima, pp. 51-81.

2002 Caral-Supe La Civilización más antigua del Perú y América. In: Revista Múltiple Cultura Peruana. año 2002, nro. 3, pp. 60-68.

SHADY, Ruth

2003 Caral-Supe, la civilización más antigua de América. Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral-Supe, Lima, 42 pp.

SHADY, Ruth y Carlos LEYVA, eds.

2003 La ciudad sagrada de Caral-Supe. Los orígenes de la civilización andina y la formación del Estado prístino en el antiguo Perú. Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral-Supe, Lima, 342 pp.

HAAS, Jonathan, Winifred CREAMER, and Alvaro RUIZ

2003 Gourd lord. Archaeology. Volume 56 Number 3, May/June (http://www.archaeology.org/0305/newsbriefs/gourd.html)

SHADY, Ruth

2004 Caral-Supe, Perú: The oldest civilization in the Americas. Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral-Supe, Lima, 41 pp.

2004 Caral-Supe, la civilización más antigua de Perú y de América. En: Andean Archaeology III: North and South. William H. Isbell y Helaine Silverman, eds.

2004 The Foundations of Andean Civilization: Papers in Honor of Michael E. Moseley. Joyce Marcus, Charles Stanish and Patrick Ryan Williams, eds. (in press).

HAAS, Jonathan and Winifred CREAMER

2004 Cultural transformations in the Central Andean Late Archaic. Andean Archaeology: Variations in Sociopolitical Organization, Helaine SILVERMAN, ed, p. 35-50.

SHADY, Ruth

2004 Caral La ciudad del fuego sagrado / Caral the city of the sacred fire. Centura Sab. Lima.

HAAS, Jonathan, Winifred CREAMER, Alvaro RUIZ

Done2005 Power and the Emergence of Complex Polities in the Peruvian Preceramic. Archeological Papers of the American Anthropological Association (Jan 2004), Vol. 14, No. 1: 37-52

SHADY, Ruth

2006 Caral-Supe and the North-Central Area of Peru: The History of Maize in the Land Where Civilization Came into Being. Histories of Maize - Multidisciplinary Approaches to the Prehistory, Linguistics, Biogeography, Domestication, and Evolution of Maize. Edited by John Staller, Robert Tykot and Bruce Benz. Academic Press

HAAS, Jonathan and Winifred CREAMER

2006 Crucible of Andean Civilization. Current Anthropology, volume 47, pages 745–775 (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?id=doi:10.1086/506281)

Marskell 08:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Secondary sources

In order of appearance

BEGLEY, Sharon

2001 New World Pyramids. Newsweek. May 7, 2001: 60-61.

2001 Pirámides de América. Newsweek en español. 9 de mayo del 2001: 42-43.

VÉLEZ A., Judith

2001 La ciudad más antigua de América, el fuego eterno de Caral. Cosas. Agosto-Setiembre 2001: 36-39.

CACHAY, Raúl

2001 Caral 3000 a. C. Somos. Año XIV Nº 753: 20-24.

SHADY, Ruth

2001 Caral, la ciudadela más antigua de América / Caral, the oldest citadel in the Americas. Rumbos. Año V, Nº 29: 72-76

SHADY, Ruth

2001 Caral: la primera ciudad del nuevo mundo. Copé. Setiembre 2001. Volumen XI, Nº 28: 1-6.

BÖKEMEIER, Rolf

2001 Amerikas äteste Stadt entdeckt! (with photographs by George Steinmetz). Geo. 12 dezember 2001: 98-118 (http://www.geo.de/GEO/kultur/geschichte/773.html)

MARTINDALE, Diane

2002 Pre-Pre-Pre Columbian. Discover, January 2002, vol. 23, no. 1: 64 (http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jan/archaeology)

VÉLEZ A., Judith

2002 Caral. Tras las huellas de la ciudad más antigua de América. Cosas. 11 enero 2002: 112-115.

ROSS, John F.

2002 First city in the new world? Smithsonian, August 2002, Volume 33, Number 5: 56-64 (http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2002/august/firstcity.php#related)

BLAKE, Melissa

2005 Professor disturbed by plagiarism allegations. Winifred Creamer helped discover site on Peru's coast. NortherhStar Online. Monday, February 14, 2005. (http://www.northernstar.info/articles/?id=5343)

MANN, Charles

Done 2005 Unraveling Khipu's Secrets. Science 12 August 2005: 1008-1009

ATWOOD, Roger

Done 2005 A Monumental Feud. Archaeology. Volume 58 Number 4, July/August 2005

MILLER, Kenneth

2005 Showdown at the O.K. Caral. Discover. 9.9.2005

201.230.149.98 (talk) 12:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Press kits

2001 The America's oldest Pyramids, Cities http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/presskits/wcjo/index.html

2001 Anthropologists Establish Date and Importance of the Americas’ Oldest City (http://www.fieldmuseum.org/museum_info/press/press_hass.htm)

2003 The god on the gourd (http://www.niu.edu/PubAffairs/presskits/gourdgod1/index.html)

2004 Exploring the America's earliest known civilization http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/presskits/peru/index.html

2004 New dates confirm beginnings of civilization in South America (http://www.fieldmuseum.org/museum_info/press/press_nortechico.htm)

201.230.81.183 (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Archaeological projects

Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral - Supe (Español: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal.htm - English: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal_ing.htm - Deutsch: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal_deu.htm)

Proyecto Arqueológico Norte Chico (http://www.fieldmuseum.org/panc/)

201.230.81.183 (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Media

2001, "Ancient Cities in the Americas." Jonathan Haas – The Macarthur Curator of anthropology at the Field Museum. Winifred Creamer – Associate professor of anthropology at Northern Illinois University. Brian Bauer – Associate professor of archeology at the University of Illinois at Chicago (See May 8, 2001) (http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/audio_library/od_ramay01.asp)

2002, The lost Pyramids of Caral. BBC, directed by Martin Taylor. Winifred Creamer. Ken Feder. Jonathan Haas. C.C. Lamberg-Karlovsky. Tom Pozorski. Ruth Shady (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/caraltrans.shtml)

201.230.83.238 (talk) 09:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Pack the thing off to FAC", Michael Moseley, 2005 "The MFAC, an evolving hypothesis". Online in: The hall of Ma'at

190.42.169.136 (talk) 04:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Coastal but arid

Interestingly, Norte Chico Region is arid; however, it is surrounded by river valleys and the development of widespread irrigation from these water sources is seen as the reason for the emergence of the civilization.

I think there should be a little inclusion on the subject of littoral (e.g. it's in the coastal region, but why is it arid?)

The page states:

"The Peruvian littoral appears an "improbable, even aberrant" candidate for the "pristine" development of civilization, compared to other world centers. It is extremely arid, bounded by two rain shadows (caused by the Andes to the east, and the Pacific trade winds to the west). The region, however, is punctuated by more than 50 rivers that carry Andean snowmelt, and the development of widespread irrigation from these water sources is seen as decisive in the emergence of Norte Chico."

So I think we're OK. Marskell 08:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Maritime Foundations of Andean Civilization: An Evolving Hypothesis, by Michael E. Moseley

http://thehallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=85 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.23.138 (talk) 01:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google Earth Maps shows China for Caral site?

Looks like the wrong number is entered.Dale662 (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, I think. Somebody check that that's the right location.

—WWoods (talk) 01:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Valdivia

To Hanson. As I see it:

Literally nothing on Google scholar calls Valdivia a civilization.[2]
We have sources that unequivocally call Norte Chico the oldest.
Even if we accept them both as civs, their dates overlap. Marskell 08:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How is it possible that this is still in the page. Valdivia was not a civilization, and most scholarly sources you can find call Norte Chico the oldest civilization in the Americas. Dates overlapping is irrelevant, we are not just talking about dates, but also about attributes that make something a civilization instead of a culture. Additionally, this article is extending a courtesy the article on the Valdivia Culture does not extend. There is no mention of Norte Chico on that page. If you'll pardon the vulgar expression, it seems more like a pissing match than an attempt to be accurate. Rafajs77 (talk) 07:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I wouldn't say that there's some definite, bright line separating a culture from a civilization. But I agree that the sources don't really support a comparison in the lead. Marskell (talk) 19:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Archaeology

I changed the spelling of this in line with the name of the journal while fixing some other spelling mistakes, but the original spelling is correct too. No offense. 81.179.249.183 14:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had always thought, without checking, that it was a Brit/Amer English difference, with the less "logical" -aeo being British. Apparently not, so your change is fine. Marskell 14:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Caral is the name for the city state. And Caral-Supe for the civilization. they are using this name for more than 13 years. Haas and his wife who didn't work at Caral have 'changed' the name to Norte Chico, to get away with the credits. Read this article and please do it otherwise: Caral-Supe civilization , in principle made famous in the USA under the name of Norte Chico.

http://caralperu.typepad.com/caral_civilization_peru/2005/01/open_letter_fro.html

In all of peru they call teh civilization Caral-Supe, an indigenous name. Norte Chico, the little of the North, it doesn't say anything. Caral-Supe is of Quechua origen and Norte Chico of Spanish!!! better Caral-Supe for the civilization and Caral for a city during this period. Also for respect for the indigenous people and Peru uses it themselves in their new history books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cholandes (talk • contribs) 11:42, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Indigenous peoples of South America

What abaout removing it?--Ssola (talk) 15:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To do

http://www.athenapub.com/archnew2.htm http://caralperu.typepad.com/caral_civilization_peru/ http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0103/p11s1-woam.html

With hopes that others find their way to this page, here's a suggested list of sections:

History A general overview of the trajectory of the society.
Agriculture and food gathering Mainly seafood. No intense agriculture?
- ~~add note on Maize.~~
~~Social organization~~ ~~Barter economy?~~ ~~stratification? lack of warfare?~~
- ~~add note on first emergence of gov't.~~
~~Architecture~~
- ~~The 73 paper should not be only one describing Aspero.~~
(lack of?) ~~Art and writing~~
- ~~Flutes~~
- ~~Shirca-bags~~
Impact Relation to Inca. Staff God, Quipu.
~~Tweak "archeologists had been aware."~~
~~Add Shady to religion.~~
~~Add Haas quote in research controversies.~~
~~Two large rooms discovered by Haas.~~
~~Add note on size of largest pyramid at Caral.~~
~~Work in Christian S.M.~~
Add map showing extent of occupation and influence as with entries on Moche and Chavín civilisations

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorvikian (talk • contribs) 01:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pack the thing off to FAC.

Marskell 13:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest two maps, actually: one to show the location of the site in Peru, and another one to show the layout of the site(s).--Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 19:47, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Littoral

Para 3 of the 'History and geography' section refers to the "Peruvian littoral'. A search on 'littoral' redirects to 'Littoral zone', which means the part of a sea, lake or river which is close to the shore. What does it mean in this context? Dudley Miles 16:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Like "nearshore", "littoral" can refer to the part of the sea close to the land, and also to the part of the land close to the sea. Confusing, isn't it? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article on Littoral zone makes clear that it has a number of different meanings. Personally, I think such a ambiguous word is better not used. Dudley Miles 22:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Map, badly needed

This article badly needs a map, showing the region that NC occupied. If possible, major settlements should be shown. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bandurria

Under the economic section...

"...there are only two confirmed shore sites in the Norte Chico (Aspero and Bandurria) and possibly two more, but cotton fishing nets and domesticated plants have been found up and down the Peruvian coast."

I clicked on Bandurria and came to an article on a musical instrument. I hope somebody can take care of that. I have no idea what it's supposed to be. Thanks.

~~NotWillRiker — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.112.31 (talk) 03:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Illustrations?

What has happened to its illustrations? There are some on Commons so why not show the "monumental architecture referred to in the text, within the article?

"A good picture's worth a thousand words"
Gives an idea of the size and shape of the hewn stones
Monumental building. It's talked about but not shown.
So here's a little picture of bag full of river stones. Just as described in the article. Why isn't the pic there too?

Amandajm (talk) 02:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to comment on the lack of illustrative material in this article. Interesting, but coul do with more pictures...--MacRusgail (talk) 17:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - more of these should be used to give idea of scale of this civilization and how it was built.Parkwells (talk) 13:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Remove pic of whale vertebrae

There is no content in the article or source to justify suggestion that caralinos were deep-sea fishermen who harvested whales. Have removed this pic:

There are others directly related to construction and sites that are more important to use.Parkwells (talk) 14:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for location in arid coast of Peru

24.50.151.151 (talk) 14:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC) http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-662-04482-7_17 One imagines that one could find the earliest civilization in the world by locating upwellings.[reply]

An issue with the title of the english version of this article

"Norte Chico" IS NOT the name of this Civilization. Norte Chico ("Small North") is the colloquial term that we peruvians use to name the mid-north area of the peruvian coast, and it's a extremely vague word. There's not a single peruvian historian that use "Norte Chico" to refer to this civilization. Plus, it's even insulting that you're just ignoring the way we locals call this culture. PLEASE, correct this error, "Norte Chico" is not a academic nor serious geographical category. The proper name is Caral Civilization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.236.255.110 (talk) 23:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Population of settlements

It would be useful if there was some information about the size of these settlements, population wise. Even if archaeologists have widely varying estimates, putting that in would be better than nothing. Were they places of 1,000 people, 10,000, or what? LastDodo (talk) 11:55, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Erroneous Dating

The initial date for the Norte Chico civilization given is in error. 9210 BCE is the date for the first evidence of human habitation of the area. The earliest cities are dated to c. 3500 BCE. Please see: Haas, Jonathan, Winifred Creamer, and Alvaro Ruiz 2004 Dating the Late Archaic occupation of the Norte Chico region in Peru. Nature 4321020-1023.96.50.6.253 (talk) 22:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It gets better, "it's the oldest civilization in America", but the Casma-Sechin culture (just 200 kilometers away) build earlier, larger and more complex and impressive settlements; lasted longer (it had a better and more complex organization) and no one talks about them! When I was there and asked the Peruvian archeologists their answer left me dumbfounded: the Casma-Sechin has, yet, no been discovered by the North American archeologists, so there are no publicity. And being farther away from Lima, it's better for the government to promote Caral (a day excursion from Lima) than the farther away Casma Valley. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.34.28.191 (talk) 20:47, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]