Talk:Camp High Point

	New York (state) portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Hudson Valley (assessed as Low-importance).

Notability guidelines and additional citations for verification

(Discussion copied from my talk page to enable wider participation) – ukexpat (talk) 16:11, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

I am the creator of the Camp High Point Wikipedia page. I was just editing it this afternoon and there were no warnings at that time. Now I see that you have added two warnings about the content. I have read through the various informational pages, but I still don't understand exactly what I need to do to meet these requirements.

Camp High Point is "notable" mainly because it was where Peter Falk got his start in acting. This is noted on his Wikipedia page. It also is noted there that another fairly notable actor, Ross Martin, was his camp counselor. On Peter Falk's official external web site, his association with Camp High Point is also noted in the first paragraph of his biography.

Among other notables who went to Camp High Point is Peter Lefcourt, a film and television screenwriter, whose credits include "Cagney and Lacey," "Eight is Enough," "Scarecrow and Mrs. King," and "Remington Steele." His mother, Stella, was the girls' head counselor for many years.

Please explain how I can improve the Camp High Point Wikipedia page so that your requirements are met.

Thank you, --karenram (talk) 01:59, 21 July 2011 (UTC)Karen Ram[reply]

Please take another look at WP:ORG and also the general notability guideline at WP:GNG. The key to establishing notability is citing significant coverage in reliable sources. Falk's website is a start, but the best kind of sources are books, newspaper articles, journals and magazines that cover the subject matter in more than just a superficial manner. Hope this helps. – ukexpat (talk) 02:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ukexpat,

There are numerous other active and defunct summer camps whose pages on Wikipedia do not cite "significant coverage" in reliable sources. The "notability" of summer camps, particularly Jewish summer camps in the Catskills, is that in their heyday, they were social and cultural phenomena. This is well-documented in print: "Children's Nature: The Rise of the American Summer Camp", Leslie Paris, New York University Press, 2008; "Camp" Michael D. Eisner, Grand Central Publishing, 2005; "Campingly Yours: A Heartwarming Journey of a Lifetime at Summer Camp", Thomas C. Adler, Five Star Publications, 2009; "How Goodly Are Thy Tents: Summer Camps as Jewish Socializing Experiences", Amy L. Sales and Leonard Saxe, Brandeis University Press, 2003; "A Place of Our Own: The Rise of Reform Jewish Camping", Michael M. Lorge, Gary Phillip Zola, Gerard W. Kaye and Michael Zeldin, University of Alabama Press, 2006; and on film: "Indian Summer", 1998, released on DVD by Walt Disney Films in 2003, starring Alan Arkin, Matt Craven, Diane Lane, Bill Paxton, and Elizabeth Perkins.

Camp High Point ceased operation at the end of the 1970 season, after almost 50 years of providing a happy, healthy, and safe summer haven for many, many hundreds of campers. It was small in size -- an "intimate" camp -- but was huge in heart, camaraderie, and loyalty. I, myself, went to CHP for 12 summers -- possibly the best summers of my life.

Unlike camps of today, which are big, modern, and expensive; are economically forced to offer much more than just baseball, tennis, and swimming; and use current technology to make themselves get noticed (social media, video, advertising, etc.), Camp High Point relied on repeat campers, friends and relatives of campers, slide shows, word-of-mouth and, most importantly, its reputation as recruiting tools.

Subsequently, Ukexpat, you will not find "significant coverage" of Camp High Point in newspapers, books, magazines, or other "reliable sources". Camp High Point now, mainly, continues to exist in the memories of those of us who went there. You have only to visit our Facebook page or our web site to see evidence of that. If you wish, I can add links to scans of an old newspaper article, a camp brochure, the late camp owner's permanent Legacy.com Guest Book, and Peter Falk's official biography.

Please let me know how you want me to proceed. Karen Ram--karenram (talk) 15:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, we are not talking about those other articles, we are talking about this article. There are many articles on Wikipedia that are deficient in sourcing, that's inevitable because of the size of the project, but the fact is that the principal inclusion criterion is notability and the only way to demonstrate notability is by reliable sources. Those other articles will be reviewed and commented on eventually. Facebook pages etc are not reliable. Some of the other stuff you mention in your final paragraph above maybe helpful (not the guestbook though), but they would have to be reviewed to make an assessment. I completely understand the fond memories of the camp that you and others have but those memories don't make it notable, and at the end of the day, it may be that this camp isn't notable as that term is used on Wikipedia. I will copy this thread to the article's talk page. Let's continue to discuss there. – ukexpat (talk) 16:07, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]