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Talk:COVID-19 vaccine misinformation and hesitancy

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Mischievous use of the term "anti-vaxxer"

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It is mischievous and opportunistic to describe all people opposed to the covid vaccine as "Anti-vaxxers". It is the same as claiming that all people who don't like icecream are "anti-sugar". 41.116.162.241 (talk) 13:01, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We go with what RS say. Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you oppose ONE specific vaccine, in this case the Covid19 vaccine, but you support, in general, other vaccines (like Measles, Mumps, Pertussis, Polio, Smallpox), why should you be considered by the plethora of WP editors as being 'antivax' ? 167.248.152.245 (talk) 15:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do such people exist? Source please! Bon courage (talk) 16:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've met many people like this! 88.97.160.176 (talk) 22:05, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:RS, we leave that decision to reliable sources. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:37, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding graphic re death rates (Trump vs non-Trump counties)

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After the December 2020 introduction of COVID vaccines, a partisan gap in death rates developed, indicating the effects of vaccine skepticism. As of March 2024, more than 30 percent of Republicans had not received a Covid vaccine, compared with less than 10 percent of Democrats.
— Source: Leonhardt, David (March 11, 2024). "The Fourth Anniversary of the Covid Pandemic". The New York Times. Archived from the original on March 11, 2024. "Data excludes Alaska. Sources: C.D.C. Wonder; Edison Research. (Chart) By The New York Times. Source credits chart to Ashley Wu.
  • @Slatersteven: I think it's appropriate to add to this article. Your first objection related to sourcing, for which I believe NYTimes and its credited primary sources are more than adequate. Your second assertion was that "This is abvout misinformation, not vacinatiojn rates", which is contrary to the very title of the article: both misinformation (of which Trump is champion) and hesitancy (which is what the graphic is about). The sourced graphic and its sourced caption capture in stunning style, an important relation between Trump, vaccine hesitancy, and deaths. Slatersteven, please reconsider. Others, please weigh in. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It also looks like it violates NPOV as this is using us to make a political point it seems to be. Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Slatersteven: Your objections have gone from (1) sourcing(NYTimes, CDC) to (2) relevance to this article(includes hesitancy). How can you now claim (3) the graphic itself "makes a political point"? The graphic presents reliably sourced facts concerning vaccine hesitancy based on an objective metric. Should Wikipedians hide neutrally presented facts just because readers may independently perceive they have political implications? No. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because this is not an edit summary, that has to be brief, So I am now available to articulate other concerns. Slatersteven (talk) 17:05, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Slatersteven: I have specifically dealt with (refuted) each and every one of your concerns in detail. You have not replied to the substance of what I have written. Unless you have substantive reasoning to present, I will replace the graphic. —RCraig09 (talk) 17:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I do not accept some of your reasoning, it is a factoid without context, that in fact draws (but implies) no conclusions. As such I think it has no place here as it is wp:undue, maybe its true, so what? what does it tell us, nothing? I have had my say, it is time for others to chip in. Slatersteven (talk) 17:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"It tells us" through concrete fact that vaccine hesitancy, which can be based on party affiliation, kills. "So what"? That's what. (P.S. One graphic in a 130KByte article is not WP:UNDUE.) And you still have not responded to my arguments other than to say you don't accept "some" of them. —RCraig09 (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As recited in the caption: the NYTimes/CDC reliable source specifically ties the death rate disparity to differences in voting. Facts are facts; facts are not what you subjectively hypothesize to be "politically motivated". —RCraig09 (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was the caption there originally? CurryCity (talk) 05:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CurryCity: Yes: diff. —RCraig09 (talk) 05:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't see it at the time. Let me read the article. CurryCity (talk) 06:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CurryCity: If you have trouble accessing NYTimes, try the archive link. —RCraig09 (talk) 06:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alarm at the spread of anti-vaxx is not politically motivated, but rather scientifically motivated. Anyone who cares about public health, whatever their politics, is motivated to want Wikipedia to give due coverage to this dangerous phenomenon. When I first saw the graph in the NY Times, I was struck not by the higher death rate in Trump counties (which could have other explanations, such as poorer health care in rural areas or lower incomes of Trump voters), but rather the fact that the death rate had been equal or higher in the non-Trump counties before vaccines were available. At the very beginning of the pandemic most deaths were in Democratic counties, because Covid first hit the U.S. in coastal cities such as New York, Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. It was vaccines that caused this to change so dramatically.
In answer to so what? what does it tell us?, it tells us a lot. (1) Anti-science views have fatal consequences. (2) Vaccines do reduce the number of deaths by a huge number. (3) Trump actually did something praiseworthy as President, namely Operation Warpspeed that resulted in the production of life-saving vaccines with unprecedented speed. It's sad and ironic that the refusal of many of his followers to accept this as a great accomplishment has led to their death from the disease. NightHeron (talk) 20:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All I said was that this would appear politically motivated without adjustment. This still does slightly because the emphasis of the chart is on Trump vote, not misinformation and hesitancy, versus deaths. CurryCity (talk) 05:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Subjective words like "appear" and "emphasis" and "motivation" are not objective reasons to oppose content. The facts are the facts, presented in the NYTimes reference as a whole (including its text) and as reflected in the caption here. What "adjustment" would you be talking about, without straying from what the reference shows and states? —RCraig09 (talk) 05:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The chart just appears to me politically motivated, so I'm concerned it would be controversial to other editors as well, but it's up to you if you want to add it. CurryCity (talk) 09:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Morning, an NYTimes newsletter, makes no mention of misinformation and no direct link between Trump and vaccine hesitancy. It says, "30 percent of self-identified Republicans have not received a Covid vaccine shot, compared with less than 10 percent of Democrats. You can see the tragic effects of vaccine skepticism in this chart, by my colleague Ashley Wu, which compares the death rates in red and blue counties." I checked CDC Wonder but found no easy way to extract deaths by counties' Trump votes. NYTimes might have crossed CDC data with voting data in order to create the chart. Is it implying Trump caused the hesitancy, or is % vote just an indicator for red/Republican? There is a possibility that this could be original research and copyright violation, NightHeron, Slatersteven? CurryCity (talk) 09:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The policy WP:OR concerns original research by Wikipedia editors, which is not allowed, and obviously does not forbid original research by our sources, in this case the NY Times and the people their journalists consulted. We're not allowed to put 2 and 2 together on our own, but we can cite the NY Times' conclusions from the data. And the phrase "you can see the tragic effects of vaccine hesitancy" seems to be a pretty direct mention of vaccine misinformation among Republicans. NightHeron (talk) 09:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The NYTimes chart mentions Trump only in the legend and not nearly as prominently as this chart does. I would leave Trump vote share in the legend because they only serve as indicators for red/Republican. Is the chart fair use then since it is not strictly just CDC data? The NYTimes could be ok with having the chart on Wikipedia with or without the modified labels. CurryCity (talk) 09:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
— Under copyright, information (data) is generally not subject to protection; it is specific expressions of data that can be protected. "It took a lot of work" (like correlating CDC data to corresponding voter data) does not by itself justify copyright protection. In creating the chart, I used Inkscape to locate particular data points and used the Bezier curve tool to arrive at smoothed curves for presentation. Here, the chance of copyright infringement is nil (for this and thousands+ of other charts on Wikipedia).
— Definitely, it's OK for a source (NYTimes) to WP:SYNthesize WP:ORIGINAL research. True, we editors should not, but that isn't happening here.
— Labels/legends: In this case, I was forced to make "Trump votes" more dominant because the NYTimes chart only mentioned it in a legend above the chart, which made it harder to visually appreciate what the different curves meant. As ~always, I'm open to specific suggestions for improving the chart's presentation, but the current presentation is best to quickly and directly convey what the five traces mean. My textual caption echoes the NYTimes reference to connect Trump votes to the broader Republican party and vax hesitancy.
— Summary: Given CurryCity's 09:00 post, above, it looks like it's Slatersteven is the only one opposed to including the chart, and I have soundly answered each and every one of his meandering objections. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Covid deaths (USA 2022) 245,000 (A decline) Flue deaths (wordwide) Globally, seasonal influenza kills an average of 700,000 people each year. No its not like flu. Slatersteven (talk) 16:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 24, 2024 news article

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CBS News Austin: Army linked soldier's heart condition to COVID vaccine, former CBS News journalist reports

I think this source could be used to help improve the article

https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/army-linked-soldiers-heart-condition-to-covid-vaccine-former-cbs-news-journalist-reports-army-national-guard-specialist-karoline-stancik-catherine-herridge-moderna-veterans-advocate-jeremy-sorenson-told-the-national-desk

Beaver's Library Book (talk) 01:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unbalanced

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This article streamlines the various conspiracies and complaints that have been disproven, but there’s no category in the article for serious legitimate criticisms. It comes across more like propaganda than well-balanced thoughtful research. J.P.Dill (talk) 10:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is because it is about misinformation. Slatersteven (talk) 10:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it is about what Wikipedia believes is misinformation; Wikipedia does not have the truth as anyone else does. AlexanderFreud (talk) 12:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is about what RS calls misinformation. Slatersteven (talk) 12:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

COVID misinformation and AIDS denialism

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Why for AIDS is defined denialism and for COVID misinformation? How many years Wikipedia needs to get COVID recognised as denialism as it has been for AIDS, which has a longer history? How Wikipedia knows what is information and what is misinformation? I think this encyclopedia would need some more philosophers of science to work on it. AlexanderFreud (talk) 12:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RS calls it misinformation. Slatersteven (talk) 12:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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