Talk:Bumin Qaghan

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A question and a remark

The name of Wei princess Bumin married has been given as Wei Chang'le. Most other sources (other than Wiki) give the name as Wei Chang. Which is correct ? (In Modern Turkish 'le means with.)
I know certain books identify Avars of Europe as expelled Juan Juan tribes. But others disagree. I feel this uncertainity should be quoted in the article.

Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Changle

She was one of daughters of Emperor Xiaowen of Northern Wei and Empress Wenzhao (孝文昭皇后高氏 (高照容)).^[1] And there is no relation with modern Turkish word "le". Her father was Xianbei and mother was a refugee from Goguryeo. And Gao Zhao is the brother of her mother. Takabeg (talk) 08:59, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note

^ zh:魏書/卷13

Blacksmith Slave

According Zhou Shu, this term was used for Rouran qagan Anagui, this does not mean Turkic people who was "blacksmith slave" (鍛奴 / 锻奴, Pinyin: duàn nú, Wade-Giles: tuan-nu) under the sovereignty of Rouran Khaganate.--CenkX (talk) 09:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anagui used this term. But academicians deal this term not only Anagui's personal view in Identifying reliable sources. You can read sources. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 09:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amongst those "sources" I can not see annoted any primary sources, but only comments, the oldest of them dated back 1957. The Chinese historical records are very clear, this term was used for Tumen by Rouran qagan. What you trying to do, to call all Turkic tribes as "slaves", you need more than this.--CenkX (talk) 09:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This word indicated that these tribes engaged with metallurgy. Maybe you don't like this word. But academicians use this word not only Anagui's word but also droad senses. They use it with double quotation. We also use it with double quatation. Censorship is harmful for science. Takabeg (talk) 10:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"blacksmith slave", 鍛奴 / 锻奴, "demirci köle"

In English: "blacksmith slave", in Turkish: "demirci köle", this term is normal used in books and articles. For example in these books term they don't use for Anagui's personal view but common use. Someone explains that this term probably means vassal. But they aslo use "blacksmith slave"

Denis Sinor, Inner Asia: history-civilization-languages : a syllabus, Routledge, 1997, ISBN 9780700703807, p. 26. Contacts had already begun in 545 A.D. between the so-called "blacksmith-slave" Türk and certain of the small petty kingdom of north China,

馬長壽, 《突厥人和突厥汗國》, 上海人民出版社, 1957, (Ma Zhangshou, Tujue ve Tujue Khaganate), pp. 10-11.

陳豐祥, 余英時, 《中國通史》, 五南圖書出版股份有限公司, 2002, ISBN 9789571128818 (Chen Fengxiang, Yu Yingshi, General history of China), p. 155.

Gao Yang, "The Origin of the Turks and the Turkish Khanate", X. Türk Tarih Kongresi: Ankara 22 - 26 Eylül 1986, Kongreye Sunulan Bildiriler, V. Cilt, Türk Tarih Kurumu, 1991, s. 731.

Burhan Oğuz, Türkiye halkının kültür kökenleri: Giriş, beslenme teknikleri, İstanbul Matbaası, 1976, p. 147. «Demirci köle» olmaktan kurtulup reisleri Bumin'e...

張豈之, 王子今, 方光華, 秦汉魏晋南北朝史, 五南圖書出版股份有限公司, 2002, ISBN 9789571128702, p. 463.

Larry W. Moses, "Relations with the Inner Asian Barbarian", ed. John Curtis Perry, Bardwell L. Smith, Essays on Tʻang society: the interplay of social, political and economic forces, Brill Archive, 1976, ISBN 9789004047617, p. 65. Slave' probably meant vassalage to the Juan Juan confederation of Mongolia, whom they served in battle by providing iron weapons, and also marching with qaghan's armies.

Asian Pacific quarterly of cultural and social affairs

Ritual, state, and history in South Asia: essays in honour of J.C. Heesterman

Son of heaven and heavenly Qaghan

Al-Hind the Making of the Indo-Islamic World: The Slave Kings and the Islamic Conquest : 11Th-13th Centuries
Mircea Eliade, Charles J. Adams, The Encyclopedia of religion, Vol. 7, Macmillan, 1987, ISBN 9780029094808, p. 243.

Takabeg (talk) 10:54, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are my blacksmith slave. How dare you utter these words ?

For Anagui's message, we can use these sources:

Book of Zhou Vol. 50.
History of Northern Dynasties, Vol. 99.
Zizhi Tongjian, Vol. 164.
Mircea Eliade, Charles J. Adams, The Encyclopedia of religion, Vol. 7, Macmillan, 1987, ISBN 9780029094808, p. 243.
Christopher I. Beckwith, Empires of the Silk Road: a history of Central Eurasia from the Bronze Age to the present, Princeton University Press, 2009, ISBN 9780691135892, p. 9.

Takabeg (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Denis Sinor doesnt seems to me speaking of "Turkic people", what he means with Turk, is actually Bumin Kagan. Likewise, Eliade also state this term were used by Rouran ruler to insult Bumin. Besides, your claim that 'the term "blacksmith-slave" probably means vassal' is unfounded. There is no primary source mentioning this kind of usage of the word. If there is any other "blacksmith slave nations", then state here? Your references above are misleading, please dont "books.google" and write everything listed as if they are supporting your personal views. You have to spent more time to really understand what is written in those books.--CenkX (talk) 01:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Besides that, it is very problematic to identify Bumin as a "Turk" in modern sense. As pointed out by P. Golden and A. Róna-Tas, it is very likely that the term "Turk" is in fact a later form of the original Sogdian or Khotan Saka word "turukä", meaning "lid" or "helmet", hence adopted into Tibetan as "druga" for later "Turks". It should also be noted that in all sources - without any exception - the Ashia are identified as blacksmiths, while the Turkic peoples were still nomads without any functioning industry (be it the art of a blacksmith) until the eventual rise of Islamicized Turkic dynasties. Almost all Turkic military and royal titles are Non-Turkic in origin, so are the names of all Göktürk rulers, including "Bumin". See de:Aschina for an excellent summary. Tajik (talk) 11:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Name of the article

His name is accepted widespread as Bumin Khagan. Khagan is the most accepted form. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Khagan Please correct the name of the article. Sbasturk (talk) 07:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Bilge Qaghan Takabeg (talk) 11:00, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[1] zh:魏書/卷13

[1]