Talk:Brodie Smith (ultimate)

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Requested move 25 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Brodie Smith (ultimate) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 18:59, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Brodie Smith (Ultimate Frisbee) → Brodie Smith (flying disc player) – Numerous reasons: 1) "Frisbee" is a trademark of one manufacturer (see Talk:Guts (game)#Wham-O for an alleged representative of the trademark owner objecting to its usage in this way). 2) The name of the sport is simply "ultimate", or when it needs disambiguation "ultimate disc" or in long form "ultimate flying disc". 3) We do not capitalize the names of sports. 4) The subject is not an "Ultimate Frisbee" or a brand name of one, but a player of a sport. 5) He's actually notable for two distinct flying disc disciplines, trick competition and ultimate, so even something like "Brodie Smith (ultimate player)" is overly specific, even misleading. 5) Use of "ultimate" in the disambiguation at all is confusing to anyone not already steeped in flying disc sports, since it's an odd use of the word to most readers, who will interpret it as a laudatory adjective referring to the bio subject; a disambiguation that introduces another ambiguity is a failure. Ergo, "(flying disc player)" seems the most obvious solution. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 14:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support and largely on the basis of WP:SOAPBOX on the interpretation that we are not here to promote an advertising brand. I like the addition of a qualifier as "... player". Support would have been stronger but for usage.

"ultimate frisbee" AND player gets "About 4,200 results" in books while

"flying disk" AND player gets "About 943 results" in books

Also:

"ultimate frisbee" AND tricks gets "About 15,000 results" in books while

"flying disk" AND tricks gets "About 3,840 results"

A move would be made on the basis of recognizability of description rather than on the commonality of the form of words used. Greg Kaye 11:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Wikipedia is not in any way required to avoid using trademarked names in this manner, and "Ultimate Frisbee" is a common name for the sport. O N R (talk) 16:19, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The sport article itself was already moved away from the name Ultimate Frisbee despite such objections. And the trademark issue for WP is more one of WP:SPAM/WP:NPOV; it's favoritism toward a particular manufacturer (not even the dominant one for some flying disc disciplines). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 05:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Easy oppose per common name. Red Slash 22:42, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- That doesn't apply. WP:COMMONNAME is an analysis we apply to the base title ("Brodie Smith"), not to parenthetic disambiguations. And again, we already had an RM about the game. It did not remain at Ultimate Frisbee. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 05:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Where did that RM take place? I don't see it anywhere in the talk page archives of Ultimate (sport). There's a cursory discussion at Talk:Ultimate (sport)#Title, with six participants over 3+ years. --BDD (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I may be mis-remembering; I know that one or another of the games listed at Flying disc games was at "something Frisbee" and was moved to a less manufacturer-favoring name. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 09:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose What, is he a Tron character? Move to Brodie Smith (ultimate frisbee)—"frisbee" has long since become genericized. Or move to Brodie Smith (ultimate) to match the sport article. --BDD (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be okay with that suggestion (Brodie Smith (ultimate)), as long as it remains lower-case per MOS:CAPS. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 09:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ONR, Red Slash, thoughts on just downcasing? --BDD (talk) 13:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we'd have to, since it's a common noun. It just looks weird to me. I'd be reluctantly neutral. Red Slash 17:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, whether a trademark is genericized is a matter of actual caselaw, and we don't have any determining that "Frisbee" has suffered this fate. Wham-O is actively protecting the mark, in court [1]. They appear to be quite litigious, and we should not steer WikiMedia Foundation toward a legal fight just to overly literally interpret WP:COMMONNAME. The rationale behind WP:COPYRIGHT arguably applies to other forms of intellectual property. WP is not the only organization wrestling with this; avoidance of "Frisbee" is much on the minds of others in the flying disc sports world; see [2] and many other such articles. This one is especially pertinent: "In fact the name of the sport is transforming from the original Ultimate Frisbee to Ultimate because of the registered trademarked name Frisbee®." ("Ultimate or Ultimate Frisbee?", http://ultimatefrisbeeinfo.com/). So, I'm supporting a move of this article to Brodie Smith (ultimate). Lower case per WP:MOSCAPS and WP:NCCAPS; we do not capitalize the names of sports. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 23:10, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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