Talk:Brigantine

Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

{{mergefrom|Brig}}

"Brig" and "brigantine" are not synonymous - for instance Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy, p. 392 makes reference to the Porpoise being built as a brigantine and later being re-rigged as a brig! The basic difference is in the use of fore-and-aft sail on the mainmast, but I'm still looking for a definitive authority to quote (good excuse for a short article also covering snows, bilanders, etc). Stan Shebs 04:55 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

To inspire you, I've started articles at Snow (ship), bilander, and just for fun, xebec. ;-> --the Epopt

The fact that Brig and Brigantine are not synonymous does not justify a separate page for Brig if there it is only a stub. Unless there is significant content that clearly delineates one type of ship by another, not just a slight modification of the masts and ship construction, then the articles belong together, not separately. Gohiking 19:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Well gee, now there's nothing left for me to do! (except to cut up the monster at rigging...) Stan Shebs 16:58 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, cheer up! I saved Advice Boat, Barge, Barca-longa, Caravel, Carrack, Cutter, Dredger, Fly-boat, Gunboat/Gunbrig, Gundalow, Hoy, Hulk/Sheer Hulk/Powder Hulk, Launch, Lazaretto, Lighter, Lighter, Longboat, Lugger, Lugger, Lump, Machine/Infernal machine, Packet, Pinnace, Pinque/Pink, Radeau, Receiving Ship, Smack, Tender, and Troopship for you. --the Epopt

Heh-heh. I must "turn my head and look away" or won't get any work done today... Stan Shebs 18:41 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

I must say that I'm happy to see people caring about such pedantic points. I've been getting disgusted by the quality of some of the seafaring articles I've seen. --the Epopt

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The Oxford English Dictionary says brig and brigantine are different, from the definition of brig:

1. a. A vessel

(a) originally identical with the brigantine (of which word brig was a colloquial abbreviation); but, while the full name has remained with the unchanged brigantine, the shortened name has accompanied the modifications which have subsequently been made in rig, so that a brig is now

(b) A vessel with two masts square-rigged like a ship's fore- and main-masts, but carrying also on her main-mast a lower fore-and-aft sail with a gaff and boom.

A brig differs from a snow in having no try-sail mast, and in lowering her gaff to furl the sail. Merchant snows are often called brigs. This vessel was probably developed from the brigantine by the men-of-war brigs, so as to obtain greater sail-power.

Ortolan88 17:45 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Good stuff, thanks! (Santa didn't bring me the OED I asked for, sniff) At some point the verbiage should be crunched down a bit. Picture would be good too - I have another project building 3D models of sailing ships, an illustrative screenshot or two would be a novel way to get unencumbered pics for the pedia! Stan Shebs 18:41 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

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It seems that the terms brig and brigantine may have been synonyms at times, and not at others. The article doesn't really reflect this currently. Andrewa 10:01, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But it does now. I've also replaced the redirect at brigantine by a stub. Both I think now accurately represent the way the two terms have had several partly incompatible uses. Both articles could still use more work. Andrewa 02:42, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I own A General History of The Pyrates by Daniel Defoe, and in its preface is an article from Marine Dictionary, Improved and Enlarged by Dr William Burney (1815) about the definitions of old sea-craft. And the old se-craft of that time used the Brig or Brigantine as synonomous terms. Since then it appears they have changed, but please make note that before that time they were the same thing. Write me for any further info: ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Lee Snavely (talk • contribs) 02:55, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rama's picture

Having a picture is good. But I sent the person who recently added one a question, because it looks like a schooner to me. Geo Swan 18:22, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

brig/brigantine/hermaphrodite brig

There has always been a huge amount of debate about where a two-masted schooner ends and a brig begins. After restoring, maintaining, and sailing aboard each of these types of vessels, many discussions with fellow tall-ship sailors of all persuasions, and researching as much as possible, I have determined that the progression is:

Two-Masted Schooner: Two masts, both masts setting a sail attached to the mast at the luff. All sails fore-and-aft. Sails may be gaff or marconi.

Stays'l Schooner: as above, but with no sail set with luff attached to foremast. One or more 'tween-mast stays'ls. Note: Modern Stays'l Schooners may sometimes set fore-and-aft tops'ls with luffs attached to the mast; this is outside the classical definitions.

Square-Tops'l Schooner: As Two-Masted Schooner, but with square topsail(s) on the foremast. A course may be set on the fore.

Main-Tops'l Schooner: As above, but with square tops'l(s) on main mast as well. No course is ever set on the main, but may (rarely) be set on the fore. The schooner Sultana is an example of this rare rig.

Brig(English): Two-masted. Square top'sl's and courses on both masts. No sparred fore-and-aft sail set on the foremast. Stays'ls set 'tween masts. Main course typically referred to as the "mains'l", while the sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically called the "spanker" or "driver". The Stavros S Niarchos is an example, although rarely pictured with the maincourse set.

Brigantine(American)/Hermaphrodite Brigantine(English): As the Stays'l Schooner, with addition of square tops'ls and course on foremast. The Exy Johnson and Irving Johnson are the best examples that come to mind.

Brig(American)/Hermaphrodite Brig(English): As the Brig(English), but with no course set on the mainmast. The sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically referred to as the "mains'l". The Lady Washington is a good example of this rig.

Snow: As the Brig(English), with the sparred fore-and-aft sail aft of the mainmast set at the luff not to the mainmast itself, but to a small "tys'l mast" stepped immediately aft of the mainmast.

The major stumbling block is the difference between New World and Old World definitions. Also, there is the somewhat archaic convention of using terms like "Brig" or "Sloop" to denote classes of vessels based on tonnage or usage, not just rig types. Also, and very rarely, one sees a picture of a Main-Tops'l Schooner setting a full stack on the main, or even worse, a Brig(British) setting a gaff fores'l (like the reproduction Pilgrim). In these strange cases, the distinction is made by carefully scrutinizing the overall sail and rig proportions; a schooner derives her primary drive from fore-and-aft sails (the squares being auxillary sails), whereas the brig derives her primary drive from her tops'ls (the fore-and-aft sails being secondary). Osteoderm 03:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• This is great but it's Original Research and can't be the basis for the information in the article.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 04:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Doug, I agree with you, which is why I have not made any change to article itself. If I had current first-hand access to the appropriate references, I would certianly provide them. Instead, my intention on this discussion page has been to clarify and attempt to steer others with greater access to materials towards providing a clearer article for the layperson. --Osteoderm 22:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

• Osteoderm, the ship you refere to as "Hermaphrodite Brigantine(English)" is called a "Hermaphrodite Brig "(or "Schooner Brig") in historic English nautical documents, I've not come across the term "Hermaphrodite Brigantine" but once, in a newspaper article.
• What you rever to as Brig(American) is called a Brigantine in English literature. Although some sources state that the mainsail on a Brigantine Proper is larger than that of a Brig, the noted differnce between a Brig and a Brigantine, in continental nautical terminology, is the lack of a course set on the main. Refundpolitics (talk) 14:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Qs

size of brigantine

the dimensions of a Brigantine ship

the dimensions of a Brigantine ship like the size

Disambiguaton page needed?

I've added a third use of "brigantine:" as an alternate spelling for brigandine, a piece of armor. Perhaps there should be a disambiguation page for this word. Durova 04:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Brig and need to maintain a separate listing for a stub

I am happy to see the difference between a Brig and Brigantine spelled out, although I wouldn't even know what was different was looking at the actual vessels unless it was pointed out to me by someone with more experience. The problem I have with maintaining Brig separately as a stub is that unless the article Brig is significant on it's own, it should be combined together with Brigantine and have the differences explained which is basically what is already being done now. Brig is an archaic reference to a similar type of ship and can refer back to Brigantine in order to clarify the differences between both.

The fact that Brig and Brigantine are not synonymous does not justify a separate page for Brig if it is only a stub. Unless there is significant content that clearly delineates one type of ship by another, not just a slight modification of the masts and ship construction, then the articles belong together, not separate.

In reviewing the other ship links, it would be likely that Hermaphrodite brig should also be combined here for the same reasons.

I thereby propose that Brig and Brigantine be combined. Gohiking 19:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense after all, since the definitions apparently vary through time and places. After a lifetime reading everything I happen to stumble on about sailingvessels, I can sum up that anyway in the Baltic it has mostly (not always) been defined that a brig has square sails on both masts, and a gaff sail in addition on the mizzen mast, whereas a brigantine has squares on the main mast, but only fore-aft sails on the mizzen, exactly as the pictures in both articles show today. Snow is an unknown type here, but seems to me to have more to do with size and possibly countryvise differings. With thorough explanation and redirections above proposal seems logical. Islander(Scandinavia) 01:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this would be ok as long as both terms are emboldened, and the difference between the two is clearly articulated at the beginning of this article. Care should be taken to ensure that a casual reader does not mistake the redirect for an indication that the two are synonymous. Gsnixon 12:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Modern parlance makes distinctions where, historically, there were none in regard to brig vs. brigantine. For much of the brig(antine)'s history as a working vessel, the terms brig and brigantine were fully interchangeable. Unless significant material can be added to contextualise these intimately related vessels, I agree that Brigantine, Brig, and Hermaphrodite brig should be merged.Chang E 04:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The terms 'brig' and 'brigantine' are still interchangable for the most part. People know what a 'brigantine' is, but a 'brig' could be a 'brig' or a 'brigantine'. The difference between brigs and brigantines is incredibly small, and the 'brig' article is - right now - completely focused on that difference, leaving little to discuss. I think that if someone found a different focus for the article, while still conveying the difference it would be worth preserving the article individually. But as it stands the article could be merged into 'brigantine' with a line similar to: "a brig is similar to the brigantine, however it is square rigged on both masts". Edit: In light of the de-stubbing of the brig article and large addition of material I don't think that the articles 'brig' and 'brigantine' should be merged. Digital Lyon 21:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

De-stub of Brig article

As I was working in the Wikipedia:Most wanted stubs page and Brig was listed as number 2, I managed to move the article from stub class to B Class as per the judgement of someone from the Military history WikiProject. I would argue that there is now sufficent material in the brig article to merit it not being merged.--Wowaconia 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

This is internally inconsistent

The article says:

By the first half of the 18th century the word had evolved to refer not to a ship type name, but rather to a particular type of rigging: square rigged on the foremast and fore-and-aft rigged on the mizzen. Many sloops were "brigantine-rigged".

(italics added)

A sloop can't possibly have a different rigging on the foremast from the mizzen, it doesn't have either. I have therefore deleted the italicized text.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 04:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a note: The word sloop does not necessarily mean any single-masted for-and-aft-rigged vessel with at least one headsail and the mast relatively far forward. It has also been used to refer to weight or armament classes. I believe one definition was a ship-rigged warship of fewer than 20 guns, but I am sure that there have been others. The author of the article clearly meant main when he wrote mizzen. I think that without the deleted text it is unclear what is meant by "ship type name" as opposed to "type of rigging." Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I have could elaborate on exactly how the meaning of the word changed. In any case the text could be changed to clarify that the author meant "general type and size of vessel" by "ship type." I would add that it is misleading to use the term ship for vessels in general when discussing types of rig, as in this context ship means a vessel having three square-rigged masts each comprising distinct lower, top, and topgallant sections, and that the word rig should be used for type of sail plan as a whole rather than rigging, which refers specifically to the lines used to support and control the rig.Gjh88 (talk) 09:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

WP already has the distinction clarified, under the article Sloop-of-war. A link within a sentence explaining that "Sloop-of-war" was often shortened to "Sloop" should suffice, no? Czrisher (talk) 20:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Pictures?

It seems we have a picture of a Hermaphrodite Brig on the Brigantine Page, and a picture of a Brigantine on the Hermaphrodite Brig Page. Is there some reason for this? IgniFerroque (talk) 04:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

link broken

source 1 is no longer a working link.... prob should be deleted and new sources found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.167.127 (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

poem

Stone Roses '....and fills up her brigantine sails...' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.126.31 (talk) 21:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Usefull Diagram

The following is a usefull diagram to show the different two masted vessels rigging plans, in relation to their classicifaction.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_Rigging_differences_in_schematic_view.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by Refundpolitics (talk • contribs) 14:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

How is a "brig" different from a "brigatine"?

I've been back and forth over both articles several times now, and I honestly don't see any difference between this:

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Brig#/media/File:Brig3.png

And this: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Brigantine#/media/File:Brigantine.png

Is the difference that the brig has a square mainsail, and the fore-and-aft sail is merely an auxiliary, while the brig has a dedicated fore-and-aft mainsail? The only obvious differences in the images are that the brig has a furled square sail on the main yards, and that the brigatine has a mainstaysail set between the masts, which ought to be perfectly possible for the brig as well. If that's really the main difference between the two, it ought to say so in plain language, because it took me a while to come to that conclusion the way the articles are phrased. I mean, the difference between the two is one sail...that seems like a relevant piece of information that could be highlighted instead of just saying "not to be confused with a brigatine, which is rigged differently". Obviously, the difference is more obvious in the "hermaphrodite" brig, with the full fore-and-aft mainsail..45Colt 09:08, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree, we need and explanation in plain language, in an easy and neat way. I've just posted at Talk:Sail-plan#Brig and Brigantine some minutes ago, please see. --62.19.46.1 (talk) 13:07, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

It is true that there was confusion on the subject and that this confusion may still be around in some other articles. Yet, the difference between a Brig and Brigantine is not contested in naval literature. However, once people start using general dictionaries to figure out the differences, things get messy. This is seems to be because of two things: first, dictionaries cut corners in there descriptions, leaving out 'non essential' parts of a description to minimize text length and second, most people don't realize that if you quote a dictionary from well before the advent of gaff topsails, there was little need to mention that the topsails were square (because all topsail were, invariably, square). In addition to the differences as described in the article, brigantines have what is sometimes referred to as a 'schooner mainmast': a mast with only a topmast extension. A brig's main mast had three sections: mast, topmast and topgallant mast. In addition to this difference, as correctly mentioned in the article, the main sail of a brigantine is the fore-and-aft gaff sail (on the main mast), the mainsail of a brig is, however, square. The gaff sail on a brig (named spanker or, less common, a driver) is used in aiding the steering of the ship. Sources: many. However, many online sources are, by now, confused. Many quoted the confused information on Wikipedia and it seems the information online has taken on a life of its own. Fortunately, we still have sources (offline):

• Collection de Toutes les Espèces de Bâtimens de Guerre et de Bâtimens Marchant qui Naviguent sur l'Ocean et dans la Méditerranée, J ean-Jérôme Baugean (1814, Paris)
• Brigantino S. Antonio, painting on glass (1768), Museo Civico Navale, Genua
• Zeilschepen en hun Tuigage, H. Manhoudt Jr. (1946) Amsterdam
• Text-Book of Seamanship, Commodore S.B. Luce (1891), New York
• Pinassen, Fluiten en Galjassen; zeilschepen van de Lage Landen - Kustvaar en Grote Vaart -, Hans Haalmeijer (2009) Alkmaar

82.173.88.91 (talk) 17:02, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Mistake in the Brigantine Sailplan?

I am not an expert, merely an enthusiast. The image captioned "A brigantine sail plan" appears to me to have both a square rigged sail on the mainsail yard, and a fore-and-aft sail abaft the main mast with no gaff or boom visible. I thought a brigantine had no square-rigged mainsail, and a fore-and-aft sail on a gaff or boom on the main mast? Just as a sanity check, is this image correct?

As far as I can see, both diagram images in the article show both a gaff and a boom for the main sail (the for and aft 'schooner sail') on the main mast. The Brigantine-rig of old had square top and, depending on the size of the vessel, square top gallant sails on the main mast. The rig with a pure fore-and-aft rigged main mast was, called either a "schooner brig" or "hermaphrodite brig". In modern times, we use the term Brigantine to refer to what they used to call a "schooner brig" (or "hermaphrodite brig"). In Europe they still use the term "schooner brig" to distinguish it from what they now call a "true brigantine" or "brigantine proper".

"1525 definitions"

"the Oxford English Dictionary has about 1525 definitions of..."

I don't know what this sentence was meant to say but, even without opening my OED, I'm willing to bet that it does *not* contain 1500 definitions of "brigantine." ;)

Can the author, or someone else who understands it, please clean up this sentence?

Thanks. WikiAlto (talk) 06:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC)