Jump to content

Talk:Branimir Štulić/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Serb

Branimir Stulic is a Serb. If you translate this article from Macedonian newspapers it writes he is a Serb. http://www.vecer.com.mk/?ItemID=A38C90975E0DF5478332145D713BD662 WQhen the civil war in Croatia has started he ran from Croatia as a Serb and came often to Belgrade where in 90s he has made a song with popular Serb singer Dejan Cukic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UlkMsVN1BE He never came back to Croatia where he lived just coz his Serb dad was in as officer of army. Stop of fake propaganda. You have tried to show Serb Nikola Tesla as a Croat so wikipedia had to lock that page coz of Croatian vandalism79.175.65.153 (talk) 13:22, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Branimir Stulic father Ivan is Croat, same as all of us Stulics from Nin. His mother Slavica Milovac is Croat from Nin, too — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bstulic (talk • contribs) 19:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

He is a Serb and that's why he left Croatia when civil war has started.109.121.34.63 (talk) 13:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't speak for him, as we last met back in 1988, he was Croat back then, but maybe he changed his mind like Nemanja Kusturica did. However, both his mother and father are Croats, he left Yugoslavia way earlier before war started and it was not civil war. Congratulations on making 3 factual errors in such short sentence, though — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bstulic (talk • contribs) 19:47, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

From where do the Štulić family in Nin hail from? There are indeed Serb Štulić families in Croatia, traditionally found in South Lika and Ravni Kotari, which is close by.--Zoupan 01:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
It is unknown. Serb Štulić families in Croatia are a minority compared to the Croat Štulić families. At [1] is written, translation; "As for the strange statements and all sorts of unverified information related to Branimir Štulić on this site give information on the family tree of Branimir. Actually I was asked by a gentleman who is a cousin of Branimir due to all sorts of stupid caption here publish his family tree that can be checked at the main or parish office in Nin. Father of Branimir Štulić was Ivan Štulić who was born in Nin (near Zadar) as Ivan Stulić, son of Franjo Stulić. Surname Stulić Branimir's father Ivan changed to Štulić. In Nin also exist surname Štulić, and the most known with that surname was Branko Štulić - national hero". Perhaps there's information about his family in the biography "Fantom slobode".--Crovata (talk) 01:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
According to Mirko Boyan Štulić, Nin i Štulići (2009), the surname etymologically derives as a nickname from "štul" - "štula" (crutch, cane, stilts). Certain Štula was recorded in Nin in the 12th century. Word and surname had many variations in the historical sources stalp, stelo, shtyla, shtule, Stuhlis, Sthwlis, Stulie, Schiulla, Schiulich, Stulich, Štulić. Other surnames with root "štul" in Croatia include Stulli, Stuhli, Stulle, Stule, Stulić, Stuhlić, Schiullaz, Schiulac, Šćula, Štul, Štula, Štulfa, Štulac, Štulčić, Štulina, Štuler. In 1389, in Nin is recorded Stuhlis. According to him the family tree Štulić in Nin covers at least five hundred years and twenty knees, of which old documents are dated even in the 14th century. According to image 2/31, they migrated from Nin in all directions, with surname variations Štulić, Štula, Štulm, Stulich, Stulli, Schiulaz. I suppose the change of surname Stulić to Štulić in legal documents was probably because it was changed to Stulić/Stulli during the rule of Italy/Italianization when many Croatian surnames were changed or had variations. For example see image 9/31 "Marco Stulic", "Jackova Stulich".
The "Hrvatski jezični portal" notes; štȕla (1. drveni nastavak za jednu nogu do koljena 2. dva duga štapa ... hodulja), surnames Štula, Štulac, Štulec, Štulić, Štulina, and that etymologically derives from Italian stollo. Due to suffix "-ul", "-ulina", derivation from Italian language, it's vast distribution, it most probably was related to the Vlach rather than Slavic population.
The genealogy tree (image 5/8) which notes Frane (1893-1977) m. Luca Ljubičić - Ivan (1921-1993) m. Slavka Milovac - Branimir (1953-) most probably is the genealogy of Branimir's family. This genealogy is supported by the Zadarski list interview with Svetko Štulić/Stulić, Branimir's cousin, who mentions his mother Slavica Milovac, grandfather Frane, and father Ivan who died in 1993.--Crovata (talk) 02:42, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

name

why is it relevant the macedonian spelling of his name? he was born in skopje simply because his father was stationed there at the time, and he has lived there for only few years... --PrimEviL 17:23, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

He didnt consider himself as a Macedonian. That reference from youtube..are you serious ? That was a joke and anyone who understand that language knows it was a joke. This is a serious encyclopedia...because of people like you are, wikipedia credibility is disputable. --Zrno (talk) 08:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)Zrno

And he has Serbian origin (Serb from Croatia) and consider himself as a Yugoslav. He is not Croat.--Zrno (talk) 08:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)Zrno

PrimEviL, sorry I never read your message to answer earlier. The Macedonian spelling is not a mark of his identity, ethnicity or background. It is there to reflect his birth. You both know how any Albanian subject will have his name given in Serbian (or atleast Serbo-Croat Latinic) if born in Kosovo before 1999 (1999-2008 would be zealous) because Serbian/Yugolslav law always dictated that the name must have an official form applicable to the republic's language. Birth certificates and relevant registry offices are all bound by linguistic provisions. You both know how an ethnic Serb will have his name given in Cyrillic even if born in Croatia or outside of the former Yugoslavia, and anyone born in Serbia will have Serbian variations of their name. See the Hungarian politicians of Vojvodina and their presentations for this one. As such, similar practice needs to be observed with Republic of Macedonia-based subjects, and place of birth is one issue. It is on this topic that Macedonia's ethnic Albanian politicians have Macedonian spellings as additional names. Evlekis (talk) 11:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Restoring Macedonian, I've preserved the Serbian variation added by Zrno. Evlekis (talk) 11:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I really don't understand why Branimir Stulic's name has to be mentionned in serbian cyrilic. Branimir Stulic's is Croatian of ethnicity,born in Macedonia and raised in Croatia. He started his career in Croatia and the base of his group AZRA was in Zagreb CROATIA!! The members of AZRA were CROATIAN and HELL, his firstname BRANIMIR is a ancient CROATIAN name which is used by Croatians as much as 1000 years ! So NO he is not of Serbian origin and yes he declared himself always as a Yugoslav !! So all serbs here on wikipedia, stop with your pitty propaganda !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.23.232.150 (talk) 17:21, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

His origin is Croatian. He just hates Croatia because of corrupted labels which made him poor. He is also quite Yugonostalgic. He's Croat who hates Croatia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.180.120.4 (talk) 15:18, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits

In re: the on-going contentious editing, pls see msg I left on the IP editor's talk page. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Be advised that I'm sorry for addressing Croat nationality of a fellow editor. Shouldn't happen again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.26.168 (talk) 21:51, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Edit by 23 editor [2]

I'm opening this discussion since there was a an edit which stood for months before 23 editor reverted it. A consensus should be established before such changes. 89.164.186.143 (talk) 15:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm still willing to discuss, although the page is protected with the state that was accomplished without a consensus and by force. 89.164.186.143 (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

You have to present reliable sources. There are two saying his father was Serb. What you want to discuss? FkpCascais (talk) 19:40, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Oh, this statement is absolutely gold. Notability. I want to discuss notability. Why do you find this info so notable to be stated in the article with such sources? 89.164.186.143 (talk) 00:06, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Since I don't understand Serbian, can someone confirm that the source actually says what the article says namely that his father "is a Serb from Nin, Croatia". It sounds like the first part being a Serb is mentioned but I don't know about the Nin part. Also does it say he grew up in Skopje? Nil Einne (talk) 15:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Source: "Macedonia-born Stulic (of Croatian family background)" [3]. 141.138.55.42 (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

If you refuse to discuss to reach a consensus, I will introduce this source to the article when the protection expires. This is pretty much a stronger source than newspaper clippings. 141.138.55.42 (talk) 22:41, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I removed disputed information until consensus is reached on talk page. 141.136.247.198 (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Complaint

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Branimir_.C5.A0tuli.C4.87 Branimir Štulić is a well known composer and writer from former Yugoslavia. His music albums and books has been sold since early eighties in a millions of copies. Wikipedia page about him: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Branimir_%C5%A0tuli%C4%87 contains 95% unsupported sources, malicious, explicit and offensive false statements of facts, purposely written with a bullying use of threat, in order to justify an unauthorized exploitation of his work and as well to mislead the public. Wikipedia contains deliberate lies about his family roots, his private life and work, which has caused him a huge damage, both moral and material. Recently, for an independent media, Mr. Štulić has clearly explained this serious issue with Wikipedia, presented his arguments and made a public request for a complete removal of all Wikipedia page's about him: http://tris.com.hr/2016/12/branimir-stulic-vs-wikipedia-sve-napisano-o-meni-je-izobliceno-95-posto-od-toga-je-laz/ His legal attorney team has also sent a complaint notice to Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. for Branimir Štulić. legal spokesperson, Zoran Živković — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.121.111 (talk) 23:02, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Mr Živković, unfortunately, we can't delete an article just because someone doesn't like it, even if that one is the subject of the article. I hope you can understand that. You also have to understand that the content of Wikipedia is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors (see: WP:V). We can't add something to an article just because we know it's true, nor can we remove something that was published just because we know it's false. What we can do is to compare different published sources and determine most reliable among them. If there is something in the article that you think is wrong, you have to tell us what exactly is wrong. Then, you can help us by providing more reliable published material so that we can correct wrong information. Since you are mr. Štulić's legal spokesperson, уou probably have a lot of material that you can provide us about Mr. Štulić, so that we can use it to improve this article. Vanjagenije (talk) 12:02, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Dear Vanjagenije, as an editor/administrator you should not place yourself above Wikipedia Rules (Biographies of living persons) and allegedly decide what is relevant in this case, and what is not. You can't continue brazenly to ignore the basic Wikipedia rules and the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which guarantees in Article 8. right to respect for private and family life.

  • Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid.
  • Pages that do not meet the relevant criteria for content of the encyclopedia should be identified and removed from Wikipedia.
  • Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
  • Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose matches the criteria for speedy deletion (CSD))

Mr. Štulić has made it clear that the sources of content on Wikipedia page about him are not credible and in the category of yellow press, addressing rumors and spreading lies about his name, life and work, and he is demanding that page should be immediately deleted.

for Branimir Štulić. legal spokesperson, Zoran Živković — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.121.111 (talk) 23:18, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

No, the page will not be deleted. Lack of accuracy is not a valid reason to delete a page about a notable person (see: WP:DEL-REASON). I agree that contentious material should be removed, but you have to tell us what exactly is contentious and why you object it. You have to carefully explain us what exactly in this article "disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass" Mr. Štulić and how. Again, as I already said, Wikipedia does not publish original research, it just collects information already published in different sources. Give us better sources, and we will improve the article. By the way, Wikimedia Foundation is based in Florida, so I doubt that European Convention on Human Rights applies to it. Vanjagenije (talk) 14:39, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
The editor's way of approaching this isn't good but per WP:DOLT we should still try to help best as we can. In this case, the first thing we can do is make sure that we are following our sourcing requirements. For that reason, I've deleted most of the early life section as it appeared to be unsourced. As mentioned above, I don't understand Serbian so can't check the 2 sources to see if they actually support any of the later claims. If they do, then these could be reintroduced. Nil Einne (talk) 15:07, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
  • This whole Wikipedia article is maliciously conspired to defame and tarnish Mr.Štulić name and his achievements.
  • Mr.Štulić considers this article erroneous and defamatory and an online harassment.
  • According to Mr.Štulić (Tris.com.hr "Branimir Štulić vs. Wikipedia") most of the references taken as a sources for this article are fabricated fake interviews (that never took place) which was a very common practice among journalists in a communist society at that time (also after Yugoslavia's breakup).
  • His only legitimate Label was 'Azra music', the other three (Jugoton, Komuna and Hi-Fi Centar) has illegally published pirates editions of his music albums and they are mentioned here in order to justify an unauthorized exploitation of his work and also to mislead the public.
  • His father was not Serbian (neither anyone in his family) and according to Mr. Štulić he pleaded as Yugoslav.
  • He has been living in Netherlands since 1984. not 1986.
  • Under his name he performs since 1990.
  • He didn't record album 'Sevdah za Paulu Horvat' in Sarajevo (he just recorded a few songs for documentary purposes, to show the audience how he works, most of the songs were already recorded before) and certainly he wasn't involved in the documentary because of the country's breakup. For those reasons frase 'what became obvious to him that Yugoslavia is going to collapse' in general does not stand.
  • Recorded material for music album 'Blase' was stolen and Mr.Štulić never published it, but Hi-Fi Centar did, as a pirate edition.
  • By mentioning 'occupied territories' Mr.Štulić refers to Serbia (in an conversation with a Serbian journalist).
  • His limited edition autobiography named "Smijurija u mjerama" was a great success and a sold out book.
  • Mr. Štulić was never a fervent believer of Yugoslav-ism and Brotherhood and unity, that is a wrong conclusion.
  • He writes and translates to 'Literate Serbian' not Serbo-Croatian.
  • It's a false statement that Mr.Štulić is living a 'modest and ascetic' lifestyle and how would somebody know that, since article claims that he is 'very protective of his privacy'?
  • Preparation for a lawsuit against Croatia Records is not 'over royalty rights' it is about unauthorized and illegal publishing, distribution and sale of his music albums. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.121.111 (talk) 00:56, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Overall, if we remove all lies and speculations from this article the only true facts left, will be: Branimir "Johnny" Štulić (born April 11, 1953) is a singer, composer and writer.

for Branimir Štulić, legal spokesperson, Zoran Živković — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.121.111 (talk) 12:21, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

For each of these points it will depend on what sources say, and whether those sources are reliable in whole or in part. The issue that sources from the Communist-period of the Yugoslav republic may just be reproducing what was allowable or encouraged to be said by the state seems a valid point. The allegation about the album "Blasé", if true, still needs some sources to back up the claim, and it would still exist as an album regardless of who released it or profited from it, so would still be included in the list of his works regardless. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:28, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
The article claims his father was a Serb not Serbian. This is an important distinction because as Serbians and Serbs indicate, in English 'Serbian' generally refers to someone's national origin while 'Serb' ethnic identity. Anyway even if you meant to say no one in his family including his father, was a Serb, the problem is we do have a source which says his father was a Serb, at least based on the discussion above. (As I said there, I don't understand Serbian so can't vouch that this is correct.) Personally, I'm a strong believe in self identification for ethnic identity so if I had good evidence he rejected the label I'd support removing it regardless of what a RS said, or if there was something of sufficient RS even mention the rejection in the article. But the complicating factor here is it refers to his father not to him so I'm not so sure here. Is there any legitimate dispute over the RS? Likewise things like the Serbo-Croatian issue seems to be supported by an RS, so we going to need either information suggesting the source is not an RS, doesn't actually say what we're claiming it does, or some information from a sufficient RS suggesting it's incorrect. Nil Einne (talk) 09:02, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I restored the infrmation simply because there are two sources in Serbian clearly saying his father is Serb. The first one from Glas javnosti and the second one from Politika a.d. Personally, I dont mind removing the info, or even stating that Serbian sources say his father is Serb (we could see what generally other sources, if exiisting on the subject, say about it). The info by itself is not highly important or related to the notability of Štulić as musician, but it can be interesting and related in regard to the main cntroversy souranding him, which is his insistence to not be considered Croat or related to nowadays Croatia. FkpCascais (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Why wasn't it so simple on Novak Djokovic page? We had stronger sources there than this few articles. Here's another source which is pretty stronger than those 2 articles from Serbian newspaper. "Macedonia-born Stulic (of Croatian family background)" [4]. 141.138.55.42 (talk) 22:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

-FkpCascais, controversy has occurred because the Croats first declared him as their, but Mr. Štulić insisted that he is not neither a Serb nor a Croat. When they heard that he is not a Croat, Serbs thought that their time has come, so they immediately declared him and his father as a Serbians.

-Nil Einne, be aware that article is mentioning Mr. Štulić's father, not yours, and that he is claiming him as his father, which no newspaper can do, or any third party, and therefore he knows and asserts that his father is neither Serb nor Serbian.

-Tiptoethrutheminefield, when is quoted that music album 'Blase' is his work, it should be stated that the material was stolen. Mr. Štulić is talking about that in the newspapers for twenty plus years, but here is not mentioned, so obviously this article supports criminal activity (legalization of theft) since it's intentionally contains only a false, fabricated and trivial things.

On behalf of Branimir Štulić, legal spokesperson, Zoran Živković — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.121.111 (talk) 00:56, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I never said anything about my father. If Štulić identifies his father in a certain way we could probably cover that in the article if it is reliably sourced. But if the personal identity of someone's father in undisputed, then I'm not sure we can ignore how his father chooses to identify, since that is the father's choice not the child's regardless of whether the article subject is the child. In fact I would say this even more strongly if we do mention the child's opinion. And yes, a reliable source could tell us how someone's father chooses to identify. In fact a reliable source could also tell us about how someone identified their father in the past. We can't always ignore historic identity when someone changes their mind. Note I am not saying that any of this has happened here, but rather explaining why it's wrong to think an article's subject is the be and end all of their father's ethic identity. And that therefore your insistence that Štulić doesn't consider his father is a Serb so what reliable sources say doesn't matter, doesn't really help us. Nil Einne (talk) 12:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Mr. Štulić's father Ivan Štulić passed away in 1993. and according to Mr. Štulić he pleaded as Yugoslav not Croat or Serb.

Wikipedia’s policy is to delete libelous material upon discovery and this whole article meets criteria for speedy deletion (CSD): -Good faith requests by the actual author -Obvious false misinformation based on fake sources -Disparaging, threatening and intimidating pages, that serve exclusively to harass its subjects.

On behalf of Branimir Štulić, legal spokesperson, Zoran Živković

Branimir's ethnicity - source analysis

I decided to comment because something strange is happening with Branimir Štulić articles on Wikipedia. I am following the situation because I admire Štulić's work. Previously in the discussion "Complaint", was noted an article [5] ("Branimir Štulić vs. Wikipedia: "Everything written about me is twisted, 95% of it is a lie", Tris, December 25, 2016) by Štulić's legal spokeperson Zoran Živković. Due to it, on Croatian Wikipedia the article information was removed and seemingly no one can edit it ([6]) since December 29, 2016. On Serbian Wikipedia the article is in current state since October 2016, and no one can edit it ([7]). Meanwhile on English Wikipedia, since February 2017, the article became a mess, and I do not understand for what reason when from 16 October 2016 until 19 February 2017, which mean for almost four months, the article state was alright and no edit was made. Why is held the current article's state during all this editing, removal, discussions, a total confusion, instead to revert it to previous state which was stable, until the issues and discussions are solved?

According to the previously mentioned news article, "Wikipedia in Serbian and Croatian edition is scene of large-scale conflicts between editors not only on the question of blood-homeland affiliation of Branimir Štulić and Azra, but also Štulić and site administrators themselves". Regarding English Wikipedia, Živković commented "The biggest arena of conflict is of course going to the English Wikipedia, where each of the groups trying to place its the truth about him, while efforts from Štulić's camp are being characterized as vandalism".

In February this practically happened on English Wikipedia when by two edits ([8], [9]), the "23 editor" included some quotes by Štulić which have nothing in common with his artistic work (subject of the article itself), and most importantly added two Serbian sources to claim Serb ethnic origin of his father, while removed three sources in Croatian, changed the "Early life", and because of the removal of those three sources and no reference for other information, it caused the removal of other information about his early life. When I look at both English and Serbian article states and histories, they became the same (use only the Serbian sources, ignore the Croatian). Is this "23 editor" one of those [Serbian] editors who engage in the "blood-homeland" conflict about Štulić?

The information about Štulić's father ethnicity is not important for the article. What is even more bothersome is in the fact there was none discussion about comparison between different published sources, their reliability, if the information can be verified, if it is general or mainstream viewpoint. According to "Due and undue weight" - "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article".

I tried to search on the web regarding the origin, ethnicity and nationality of both Branimir Štulić and his father. Here is the comparison:

  1. "Croatian eyes as criterion" (link http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.rs/arhiva/2005/12/04/srpski/G05120302.shtml), Glas javnosti, 2005-12-04:
  • "...[Darko] Glavan replied that Johnny Štulić after 1990s does not feel anymore as a Croat, does not respect his Croatian friends, and to Siniša Škarica (editor of Jugoton and later Croatia Records) steals recordings of Azra and sells them in Beograd, where gives interviews."

This quote imples that Branimir Štulić before was and felt as a Croat, while the dissolution of Yugoslavia caused various mixed feelings about it.

  • "Štulić itself never wanted to publicly speak about his nationality, considering it unimportant, although it is known that his father is a Serb from Niš, in Dalmatian Zagora. When someone asked and insisted on an answer, he would give a laconic answer that he was a Macedonian. When asked how come, he had a ready answer - "there I was born, and it is logical that by birth you're citizen of that country"."

This quote is by article author G. J., and is an obvious fabrication that "it is known" when it is commonly not known that his father is a Serb. This is even more confirmed with the fact that the author does not know where Branimir and his family Štulić origin from (city of Nin in Ravni Kotari), as there is no city/settlement of Niš in whole Dalmatia, Niš is not a synonym for Nin, while there is substantial difference between Dalmatian Zagora and Ravni Kotari. Even more, there is no single article before this one by which can be verified the "well known" thesis that his father is a Serb. The part of being Macedonian shows he had mixed feelings/thoughts about his ethnicity/nationality even before the dissolution. Practically, the source is not reliable for the consideration that his father was a Serb. It simply can not be verified.

  1. "Hijacking of Johnny" (link http://www.politika.rs/scc/clanak/110442/Otimanje-o-Dzonija), Politika a.d., 2009-11-04:
  • "The son of colonel of YPA/JNA tank units Ivan Štulić, a Serb by birth from Nin near Zadar"

This quote is by article author Aleksandar Apostolovski, and once again is raised the question - from where is the information his father is a Serb? Practically, they represent it as a "verified" or "known" fact - yet it is not known nor it does seem as a fact. Did they copy the same consideration from Glas javnosti? Possible, since the article is about national seizure of Štulić's work from both Croatia and Serbia (which will proclaim as theirs and give him a national passport), what is a better argument for public manipulation, but to include a false fact that his father "is" a Serb? Funnily, this topos was previously mentioned (http://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/press-nabrojao-hrvatske-srbe-zar-vam-tesla-i-arsen-dedic-nisu-nista-dobro-donijeli/454709.aspx) by populistic tabloid Press (newspaper) c. 11 October 2009, while on 17 October 2009 in an article (http://www.blic.rs/zabava/vesti/dacic-ponudio-srpski-pasos-stulicu/bls7gzd) that "Johnny Štulić was born in Croatia, in mixed Serbo-Croatian marriage".

In 2016, in an previous article (http://tris.com.hr/2016/04/branimir-stulic-ekskluzivno-za-tris-nemam-ni-jedno-hrvatsko-krvno-zrnce/) by Tris, Branimir claimed that "I'm Azra and only pay a membership fee and have no Croatian blood cell (nor am I a child of Croatian-Serbian marriage), then Azra is not a Croatian band" and "One of money payoffs ... is an evident evidence that I'm not a Croatian author and that Škarica is dark lying (bearing in mind that as a screenwriter [Škarica] on the series about New Wave puts me among the Croats, although he very well knows that I am a foreigner)". Obviously there is a paradox - as someone, Štulić or media, or both, are lying for various reaons.

It is a complex issue in which Branimir claims to not have any identity connection with the Croats and Croatia, because he does not want to belong to anybody specifically any nationality (an issue from Yugoslavian period), and it is a kind of protest related to many lawsuits against Croatia Records (in which Siniša Škarica works as their main editor) over royality rights or non-payment over work by Azra. This is well explained in an article "How Johnny Štulić became a Serb" (http://www.nedeljnik.rs/nedeljnik/portalnews/kako-je-dzoni-stulic-postao-srbin/) by Nedeljnik from 6 May 2016, in which the author wonders if his negation of Croatian origin is a sufficent reason for Serbian media to proclaim it as a Serb. According to Đorđe Matić, as author Branko Rosić writes, the truth is more complex as when he mentions "blood cells" it is partially related to one of many Štulić's theories about the origin of South Slavs, thus he called himself as Bogomil, Illyrian, also Macedonian and Bosnian, but metaphorically and not literally, for refusal of belonging to one of the two nations (Croatian and Serbian), especially in the late 1980s and early 1990s when the counting of "blood cells" was a hot topic and led to a bloody war. This was something he was well aware and was predicted by him.

Similarly see "Johnny Štulić: I am not by commitment a Yugoslav" (http://www.abcportal.info/clanak/johnny-stulic-nisam-po-opredjeljenju-jugoslaven, Press), in which on question if still has only a Yugoslav citizenship answered "I had Yugoslav citizenship, which expired in year 2000. I am not by commitment a Yugoslav, but I had this passport. However, when was asked to decide [on his national affiliation], I stated that I am a Yugoslav, because of which everbody gave a pale look [proverb in the sense of disbelief]. I said that because I wanted to make clear for some people: "I do not have anything in common with you". So it is today", or article "Johnny Štulić: Croatia owes me 12 million euros" (http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/scena/showbizz/clanak/id/2063/ekskluzivno-johnny-stulic-hrvatska-mi-duguje-12-milijuna-eura, Slobodna Dalmacija) in which on relation to Croatia and Croats replied by saying that he does not have anything with any government including Croatian, that Croats do not exist 600 years, questioning what means to be a Croat or what is a special Croatian spirit, thus to sod off, that "I am a Turk, and so I am a Turk for myself, not for you. Also I am a Macedonian. To anyone I do not owe anything". You get the point. He rebelliously does not want to be a national, or his work cultural, property of anybody.

  1. "Boris Leiner - Sculptures from the exhibition" (http://www.geo-net.hr/proizvodnja/?ID=11, related to http://mojzagreb.info/hrvatska/hrvatska/boris-leiner-skulpture-no-limited1), Geo-net, 2010:
  • "As for the strange writings, statements and all sorts of unverified information related to Branimir Štulić on this site give information on the family tree of Branimir. Actually I was asked by a gentleman who is a cousin of Branimir due to all sorts of stupid [or without connection] writings here publish his family tree that can be checked at the registrar or parish office in Nin. I would ask Branimir if by any chance read this to contact me so we can correct if there is something wrong. Father of Branimir Štulić was Ivan Štulić who was born in Nin (near Zadar) as Ivan Stulić, son of Franjo Stulić. Surname Stulić Branimir's father Ivan changed to Štulić. In Nin also exist surname Štulić, and the most known with that surname was Branko Štulić - national hero. There is no doubt that Branimir Štulić came from family Stulić".

However in Tris article from December 2016 Branimir stated "On Croatian Wikipedia is claimed that my father changed surname (added caron [Stulić -> Štulić]), but actually is the opposite, others removed it, because the grandfather was telling: 'since when you do not have a caron', so guess I know".

  1. "When Johnny was young" (http://www.dugirat.com/zanimljivost/10168-Kad-je-Johnny-bio-mlad-v15-10168, related to http://www.zadarskilist.hr/clanci/18092009/branu-cu-nagovoriti-na-povratak-u-hrvatsku), Zadarski list, 2009-09-26:

The interview and quotes are by Branimir's cousin from Nin, Svetko Stulić. He mentions that Nin was the birth place of Branimir's father Ivan and mother Slavica (surnamed Milovac), as that Branimir has sister Branka. Branimir's grandfather (by father Ivan's line) was Frane. The father Ivan Štulić died in 1993 and was buried in 1993. According to Alka Vuica, she recalls that he was proud of his origin from Nin, claimed to descent from Grgur Ninski, and he shouted "Mine are from Nin, Croats".

  1. Štulići and Nin (book), Mirko Boyan Štulić, 2008, ISBN 978-953-55486-0-7:

The author's grandfather Joso (1890-1974) is brother of Branimir's grandfather Frane (pg. 264). This book is about local history of Nin, as well history and genealogy of the family Stulić/Štulić (which had many changes of surname), and it confirms the previously mentioned genealogy by Branimir's cousin Svetko Stulić. Pages 264-267 are dedicated to Branimir, and mention that Branimir in his childhood mostly hung out with Svetko and Marin Štulić. On page 329, the grandfather Frane (1893-1977) married Luca Ljubičić (1901-1963), who had son i.e. father Ivan (1921-1993) who married Slavka Milovac (1923-), who are the parents of Branimir (1953-).

According to historical documents the family surname is mentioned around Nin since 12th-14th centuries, and his family can be genealogically traced by surname Stullich-Schiulich-Schiulla, by founder or earliest mentioned member Petar in circa 1500 (pg. 182). On page 61. is mentioned quote by Ljubomir Maštrović's work from 1956, who said that Štulići with Ljubičići and Morovići were the only remaining old families in Nin from Nin, considering themselves as "starinci", while Štulići and Ljubičići until then still wore old Croatian folk costumes, and as members of Church board "fabricieri" had an honorary place in the church. Štulići from Nin were and are Catholic Croats. After Petar genealogically followed (pg. 182-190 and pg. 295-304) Jure, Šime, Jure, Gašpar, Pere, Gašpar, Jakov, Ivan, Jakov, Ante, Mijat, Filip and grandgrandfather Joso (from whom descend line Frane-Ivan-Branimir). The progenitors personal name, and of their brothers of whom two of them were Catholic Church priests by the way, are obviously local Croatian and by Croats, not Serbian nor by Serbs. On page 51. is mentioned the consideration from Serbia that Branimir is of Serb origin from Dalmatian Zagora (referencing to the Serbian sources above) which by the author is considered as obvious "lie", "propaganda" and "false myth".

This is corresponding and confirming the points by Branimir's legal spokeperson Zoran Živković above - that "His father was not Serbian (neither anyone in his family)", "he knows and asserts that his father is neither Serb nor Serbian", "controversy has occurred because the Croats first declared him as their, but Mr. Štulić insisted that he is not neither a Serb nor a Croat. When they heard that he is not a Croat, Serbs thought that their time has come, so they immediately declared him and his father as a Serbians", "[his father] pleaded as Yugoslav not Croat or Serb". In conclusion, the "Serbian" theory is false and debunked.

  1. "Post-Yugoslavia: New Cultural and Political Perspectives" (Springer, 2014) edited by Dino Abazović and Mitja Velikonja, ISBN: 9781137346148

This is the only independent (in national sense compared to Croatian and Serbian sources) and reliable source in English, which clearly states "The Macedonia born Štulić (of Croatian family background) ... but never declared any ethnic affiliation ... His family background is Croatian but he declared himself a "Balkanian" - also this source is evidence that he has a cult following. Another source "Shake, Rattle and Roll: Yugoslav Rock Music and the Poetics of Social Critique" (Routledge, 2016) by Dalibor Mašina, ISBN: 9781317056713, is a very good source about the criticism, characteristics and influence of his work and presence, as well the previously discussed vagueness about his nationality/ethnicity affiliation which is easly explained by his artistic philosophy, Marxist convictions (which are anti-nationalistic) and somehow sympathy for Yugoslavia.--46.188.161.187 (talk) 17:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

You just wrote a huge essay in which you express your own personal opinion on how Serbian sources are questionable and unreliable, and how Croatian ones aren´t. You go as far as making assumptions how one source is probably unreliable and the others confirming the idea must have copied the ideas from the unreliable (in your view) source. Serbian Prime Minister Ivica Dacic offer of a Serbian passport to Stulic is a conspiracy in your view, but you didn´t even considered a chance of that being an appreciation gesture on his behalve to credit Johnny´s work with something that would be more than just a simple useless homage, but actually citizenship as welcoming gesture (aware about Johnny´s use of Yugoslav citizenship till well apon Yugoslav end, the gesture of providing him with currently valid citizenship seems reasonable, nothing malivolent as you present it... unless, of course, everything Serbian you see as malivolent). I don´t know if it was a honest homenage gesture or a maipulative act, all I am saying is that you make precipitated coclusions obviously in Croatian favour. Even Johnny´s spokesman Zivkovic statements are not the Holly Bible on the matter. All we have are Johnny´s words, and they actually say not to "aprision" him to any of the two sides, but let him live universally (humanism) without those primitive chains. FkpCascais (talk) 21:20, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Based on the so-called essay, I made an edit. The essay was more than informative and based on reliable sources which obviously show that the claim from Serbian sources is highly questionable and unreliable to be cited on Wikipedia.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
@FkpCascais: would advise you to not do such disruptive edits without proper substantiation.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:55, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
If you notice, what Stulic preciselly doesnt wants, is labeling him as "Croatian" or "Serbian" or anything else. Feel free to do whatever sources say, but adding "Croatian" to lede is preciselly the opposite of all said by the musician himself. PS: The essay sceams sockpuppeting from Asdisis. FkpCascais (talk) 22:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Alright, wrote "Croatian" in regard to his family country, however, don't think we should take into special consideration the personalities opinion in such a way to outweigh our own editing policy.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 23:14, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Tis OK now, the entire issue actually goes around that, not labeling him. I care because I am a fan of his. I grew up listening to his music and undestanding his intellectum. My revert was not disruptive, you made a series of bold changes in one edit, some of them important and opposed. As such, reverting you is not disruption. You corrected the controversial part, and I thanked you for your corrected edit. I would have done exactly the same if anyone added "Serbian" in the lede. Stulic himself simply wants to be free of all those ethnic labels, he grew up in a multi-ethnic country called Yugoslavia (same as me) and he definitelly wants to stay as such. His own words confirm this, and all we have are arguments (including this essay) that want to bring him to one side or another. Take notice that I didn´t added any labeling of him, just opposed to it. I read all his interviews and he denies all these other sources done by other people trying to manipulate events and interpret him as something else but not Yugoslav and free of ethnic divisions. I havent done any disruptive edits, I just opose any POV-pushing on this matter. Thanks, best regards! FkpCascais (talk) 23:32, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
FkpCascais, you were labeling him as a Serbs a few months ago [10] and now it's important that he isn't labeled? 141.136.219.182 (talk) 23:50, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Ok, best regards.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 23:53, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't want to waste my time over technicalities, so as long as it is stated that his parents are Croats. You can remove "Croatian singer" from the lead, but you can't remove the fact that he is a Croat and that he is a singer, sated later on. 141.136.219.182 (talk) 00:05, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Branimir Štulić. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:51, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Branimir_Štulić/Archive_1&oldid=1136576908"