Talk:Bordier & Cie

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Proposed Changes

Hello everyone, here are some of my proposed changes for the infobox, Overview Section, History Section and Sponsorship Section!

Bordier & Cie

Company type	Limited partnership, Private Banker
Industry	Wealth Management
Headquarters	Geneva
Area served	Bern Brest Geneva London Montevideo Nyon Paris Rennes Singapore Turks & Caicos Islands Zurich
Website	bordier.com

Overview Section

Bordier & Cie Banquiers Privés, founded in 1844, is an independent, international Private Banker* with unlimited liability, owned and managed by the fifth generation of its founding families. The Bordier & Cie Group is exclusively dedicated to private management: protecting, growing and passing on to future generations all assets entrusted. It is headquartered in Geneva with branch offices elsewhere in Switzerland, in Nyon, Bern and Zurich. Bordier & Cie is also an international group with branches in Paris, Brest, Rennes, London, Providenciales in the Turks and Caicos Islands, Montevideo in Uruguay and Singapore. It is a member of the Swiss Private Bankers Association and of The Association of Swiss Private Banks.

Some of the text remains the same, with the same sources. Thank you!

Can a History section be added below the Overview Section? With the following content:

History Section

Key Dates in Bordier & Cie's History and include this image : https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:BordierCie-Timeline.jpg

Lastly, can a Sponsorship section be added below the Structure section? With the following content and sources:

Sponsorship Section

Bordier & Cie is official partner of Under The Pole [1], a pioneering underwater research expedition, whose aim is to contribute to advance the understanding of the oceans, preserves the planet for future generation and contribute to a more sustainable world.

The end of this paragraph with the following sources: https://www.underthepole.com https://payro.ch/bordier-soutient-lexpedition-scientifique-under-the-pole/ https://www.allnews.ch/content/interviews/le-sponsoring-in%C3%A9dit-du-groupe-bordier-cie https://www.underthepole.com/tous-nos-partenaires/?lang=en https://webspecial.tdg.ch/longform/under-the-pole/1-presentation/ https://www.bordier.swiss/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/12/2018_12_01_Dossier-UTP-Tribune-de-Geneve.pdf https://www.bordier.swiss/en/2018/01/10/under-the-pole-expedition/

Thank you so much! Let me know if there are any edits that cannot be added.

Declinig because of WP:NPOV issiues. The image could in theory be added, howewwer, I am not getting exactly what you mean with that sentence. Victor Schmidt (talk) 10:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Follow up edit request

Hello Victor Schmidt and fellow Wikipedians! Following my previous edit request, what I meant to say is, would it be possible to add the following image to a newly created History Section: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:BordierCie-Timeline.jpg ? Can the History Section be placed under the Overview Section as well?

I hope this clarifies things! Furthermore, would it be possible for you to let me know which content specifically has NPOV issues so that I can improve it? Thank you! Christophe Leu (talk) 05:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

 Question: @Christophe Leu: It would be better if this could be added textually based on, preferably, independent sources. Could you rewrite this textually with adequate sources? Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk | contribs) 15:30, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested Edit

Hello, following the above remarks, I have edited the social responsibility section to reflect a neutral point of view. I would like to improve the article with this new social responsibility section which is to be added at the end of the article after the Structure section. Every newly added information is now using a neutral tone and is sourced. Can you please edit the article or let me know if anything should be changed?

Thank you.

Social Responsibility

In 1902, Ami Bordier was appointed Treasurer of the Association for the Reformation Wall. In April 2017, Bordier & Cie Group became the exclusive partner of the exhibition “Building the wall?” which was part of the 100th anniversary of the International Monument to the Reformation exhibition organized by the Geneva Museums of Art and History.”

In 2018, Bordier & Cie became the exclusive partner of the digital cultural initiative, Hodler, le roi du selfie, organised by [[[Musée d'Art et d'Histoire (Geneva)|Geneva’s Museums of Art and History]] (MAH).

In 2018, Bordier & Cie Group became a sponsor of the Under The Pole III Twilight Zone expedition which aims at improving knowledge of subsea environments.

Christophe Leu (talk) 10:59, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done @Christophe Leu: your edit request has been done. i am sorry for the delay. Trains2050 (talk) 17:26, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

References

@Trains2050: Thanks a lot. We have a bunch of historical documents on the past 175 years, I'll try and write up something to help improve that part as well. Thank you again, and have a nice day, Christophe Leu (talk) 14:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Broad update

Hello again! I'm back with some decent material to improve the article: wrote about the history, explained the main business lines and got rid of the list of partners (they are now included in the History section); we also got the photographer to license the HQ's picture on Wikimedia Commons (there was a request for picture on top of this page). FYI, we posted the same text on the French, German and Portuguese wikis last week and it all went fine (meaning other editors have chimed in but seemed okay with the tone and content - even got a TY notification in Portuguese, that was unexepected and very kind). Please have a look and feel free to keep / edit as you see fit. Thanks a lot! Christophe Leu (talk) 07:22, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Here it is

Bordier & Cie

Bordier's headquarters in Geneva
Company type	Partnership limited by shares
Industry	Private banking, Wealth Management
Founded	1844
Headquarters	Geneva
Number of locations	11
Area served	Worldwide
AUM	CHF 13.3bn (2020)
Number of employees	250
Website	bordier.com

Bordier & Cie is a Swiss private bank founded in 1844 in Geneva, active in wealth management for private clients. A member of the Swiss Private Bankers Association, it is one of the last in Switzerland to keep the status of a private banker, with four fully and personally liable partners for agreements made by the bank. The institution holds a banking license in Switzerland, Singapore and in the Turks and Caicos islands. It also has branch offices in the United Kingdom, in France, and in Uruguay.

History

The Bordier family arrived in Geneva in 1554 when Guillaume Bordier, a French protestant, was fleeing religious persecution in the Orléans region of France and came to settle in Switzerland. His descendants initially worked in the cloth trade, then in the goldsmith and jewellery sectors, as well as in clergy roles.

Ami Bordier

The Bordier bank originally began in 1844, when Jacques Reverdin (1812-1895) who was previously employed at the Pictet bank, decided to start his own company in order to become a banker in Geneva. In 1871, Ami Bordier (1841-1920), who married Jacques Reverdin’s daughter the same year, joined Reverdin & Cie as a business broker. After the death of his father-in-law in 1895 the management of the bank was given to him. The institution, which by this point had 13 employees, was renamed Bordier & Cie.

Ami Bordier was then joined by his two sons, Pierre and Édouard, who became partners at the bank in 1897 and 1904 respectively. In 1906, the institution relocated to number 16 rue de Hollande in Geneva, a building which remains the headquarters of the bank to this day. In 1917, Ami Bordier retired, leaving the management of the company to his sons alone.

Pierre and Édouard’s sons in turn joined the bank in the 1930s, marking the arrival of the third generation at the family business. Guillaume and Jacques Bordier, the sons of Pierre, became partners in 1936, and were then joined by Raymond (Pierre’s third son) and Edmond Bordier (Édouard’s only son) in 1938. When Pierre Bordier retired in 1956, the bank had 32 employees.

In 1966, two members of the fourth generation in turn became partners. These were Philippe Bordier (Jacques’ oldest son) and André Bordier (Guillaume’s son). In 1974, the two men found themselves alone at the head of the family bank. Together, they particularly distinguished themselves in its computerisation, which began in 1975 with the introduction of an initial IBM system. The bank later adopter the Olympic software at the end of the 1980s, which allowed staff to manage all operations for clients’ accounts online.

In 1992, Pierre Poncet became a partner, marking the first arrival of someone outside of the Bordier family into this position. In 1994, he was joined by Gaétan Bordier, which marked the fifth generation of the family in management positions. Also from the fifth generation, Grégoire Bordier became a partner in 1997 and assumed the role of a fully liable senior partner from this date. His brother Evrard Bordier also became a fully liable partner in 2011, and was then joined in the same role by Michel Juvet in 2012, replacing Pierre Poncet, who had become a limited partner. The latter would then be joined by Patrice Lagnaux in 2017, followed by Alessandro Caldana in 2018. In 2020, Christian Skaanild was named a fully liable partner.

In 2020, the Bordier bank changed its legal status to become a partnership limited by shares, abandoning its old company status as a limited partnership, mainly for accounting flexibility reasons. The institution’s four main partners remained fully and personally liable partners for agreements made by the bank. The institution also maintained its status of “private banker”, which makes it the only institution in Romandy to have kept this historic status, and one of the last members of the Swiss Private Bankers Association, along with four other banks from German-speaking Switzerland.

Operations

Wealth management

The Bordier bank’s operations historically focus on private banking, including wealth management consulting (financial and property), tax advice, legal advice, tailor-made investment advice, and even inheritance advice, as well as typical banking services.

These services are offered to Swiss as well as foreign clients. Midway through 2020, the Bordier bank had around 13.3 billion Swiss francs of assets under management.

Asset Management

The Bordier bank allows its clients to invest in equity funds managed by its own staff. It also includes an asset management branch, in particular SICAV investment schemes (UCITS), invested in European, international, or Swiss bonds and shares.

In 2016, the bank created a sister company in Switzerland dedicated to non-traditional investment, particularly in the area of private equity and complex market-linked investments. Bordier FinLab also aims to invest in other capital by offering seed money, particularly in the fintech sector.

Subsidiaries and partnerships

In 1986, the bank created its first subsidiary bank. This was Bordier International Bank & Trust (BiBT), a bank located in the Turks and Caicos Islands. It has been managed by Evrard Bordier, representing the fifth generation of the family, from the year 2000 on.

At the end of the 1990s, the Bordier bank began to expand into other cities in Switzerland, opening a first branch in Zurich in 1997. Two other office openings followed in Bern in 1999, then in Nyon in 2005.

The institution continued its international expansion in 2001 by turning its attention towards the United Kingdom, where the Bordier bank acquired a 45% share in the company Berry Asset Management. It then became a majority shareholder, increasing this to 90% of the company’s capital in 2007. The company changed its name in 2014 to Bordier & Cie (UK) Limited, thus becoming Bordier’s London-based management company.

In 2006, the bank established itself in Paris. Here it created a management company, later establishing its presence throughout France in 2017 with the opening of two regional offices in Rennes and Brest.

In 2007, the bank opened a branch in Montevideo in Uruguay. The introduction of Bordier & Cie into Uruguay was accompanied in 2018 by the purchase of the investment consulting firm Helvetia Advisors, also located in Montevideo.

In Asia, the bank opened a branch in Singapore in 2011 and later established a partnership in Vietnam in 2018 with the Military Commercial Joint Stock Bank. This resulted in the creation of a joint-venture in 2020, MB Private, offering private banking to wealthy individuals in the country.

Finally, in 2018, the Bordier bank became an official partner of the Under The Pole expedition, an initiative supporting a better understanding of underwater environments and climate change issues in the oceans.

References

References

Hi @Christophe Leu: thanks for your patience with these edits. Since this is such a large request, I will be assessing this request over the next few days. You can comment after each part or wait until the assessment is finished. Other editors, as always, are also welcome to evaluate and comment on the request. My response will be posted in sections and I will be evaluating the lede at the end.

History Paragraph 1:  Not done This paragraph is about the Bordier family, and I'm not sure how it connects to the company.

History Paragraph 2: I added the first sentence of the paragraph. Unfortunately, the rest of the article is behind a paywall, so I will try to find another way to read the source.

For the "Bordier & Cie: Souvenirs et perspectives" I could not find a copy of the ebook online. Since I cannot verify the information I won't add it in, but someone later can add it if they have access to the source.

Ref 10:  Partly done The source confirms that Gregoire joined the bank in 1997, and I cannot read the ref 11 article because of a paywall to verify the rest of the information. I will add when Gregoire and Edvrard joined the bank.

Ref 12:  Partly done I added Juvet but the source did not mention Poncet.

More comments will be given later. Z1720 (talk) 21:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello @Z1720:, thanks for your time and effort. I'll try to answer your comments.

History paragraph 1 & 2: since the name of the Bank is Bordier, it made sense to indicate where it's coming from. It would probably warrant a Wikipedia article by itself, but Banking in Switzerland (and Geneva) is particularly tied to Protestantism and old local families (hence this paragraph, which is sourced from the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland). Ref 2, a copy of which can be found (removed), is part of a series on these families: Bordier, Mirabaud, Gonet, Pictet, Lombard, Odier, etc.).

I confirm that the Bordier & Cie 1994 book (refs 3-9) is not available online: it can be found at the university library but am not sure it's really helpful if you are not living in Switzerland.

Ref 10: there is this February 2011 article from Les Echos which confirms that Evrard was named fully liable partner on 1 January of the same year.

Ref 12: There is this 2012 interview of Michel Juvet where he indicates replacing Pierre Poncet. This is not essential information as such, only to show that the number of partners remains constant (else the wording would imply they keep piling up).

Looking forward to your other comments. Thanks again for your time! Christophe Leu (talk) 09:49, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit: we have a copy of the 1994 book at the office and could post a PDF copy of the relevant pages. Would that be ok? We could do the same with most of the paywalled publications. Christophe Leu (talk) 12:58, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Christophe Leu: Do not post a copy of the pdf (Wikipedia cannot host links to books that are not publicly available). If you want, you can email the pdf to me and I will take a look at it.

For History paragraph 1, I think you want to describe where "Bordier" name originated. If so, instead of describing the family's origin to the region we explicitly say why the bank has that name. Something like, "The bank was named for so-and-so because..." I will follow up with more comments later. Z1720 (talk) 15:55, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Z1720: Sorry, I meant to write that we can post it somewhere on the bank's website where you could have a look. We could also add some of the paywalled articles there.

Re: name, as far as phrasing goes you decide what's best/simplest. Why the Bank is named Bordier is explained in the second paragraph (ref is in one of the paywalled articles, copy of which is available (removed). Christophe Leu (talk) 16:23, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Christophe Leu: We can't have links to the text of paywalled articles posted on Wikipedia. I assume LeTemps has not given permission for Bordier to reprint their article for free on the internet, so the link needs to be removed. Instead, send me an email of the links to the pdfs. Z1720 (talk) 19:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Continuing my assessment:

Ref 2: I now have access to the Le Temps source, so I will use that to verify the information for the article. The article verified the information in source 3 so I replaced it (since I still do not have access to Bordier & Cie : Souvenirs et perspectives.)

Ref 10: I was re-reading ref 10, and it stated that Evrard became a partner (associé) in 2010, so I added that information in. I used Les Echos to include who else was partners when Evrard was appointed.

Ref 12: For the Geneva Business News source, the editors (Rédacteurs) page will not load for me for some reason. Thus, I cannot determine the masthead and decide that it is a reliable source. I will try again later this week.

I will continue this request later this week. Other editors are welcome to comment and continue the assessment. Z1720 (talk) 00:56, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

@Christophe Leu: More thoughts are below:

Ref 12:  Not done I can now access the Rédacteurs page. However, I didn't realise that the GBN source is an interview, which makes it a primary source and I avoid primary sources on these topics.

Ref 13:  Not done The source doesn't have an author and I cannot find a masthead on the website, so I decline to add this information.

Ref 14: This is behind a paywall so I cannot verify the information.

Ref 15:  Not done This is a press release and thus a primary source and does not show that this information is notable to add to the article.

Ref 16:  Not done The Association of Swiss Private Bankers does not have an editorial board or peer-review process and is thus not a reliable source.

Ref 17:  Done With some rewording.

I will continue this assessment at a later date. Z1720 (talk) 03:35, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello @Z1720:, thanks for your review. For the record, we do have licenses for each and every article posted on our news page, which includes the article whose link was deleted. I'll be sending you a separate email for material that is not public (e.g. the 1994 book, whose relevant pages we're getting scanned). Comments/corrections below:

Ref 12 (re: Juvet indicates replacing Poncet): my understanding of secondary sources is that they are to provide analysis. In the case at hand, the interview is a simple statement of fact (an information that can also be corroborated by looking at the Register of Commerce and bank's statutes, for instance). I went to read WP:PRIMARY and understand the limitation is to avoid original research (which totally makes sense).

Ref 13: the author is awp, which is a financial press agency (similar to albeit a lot smaller than AFP, Bloomberg, Reuters, etc., who also mostly never sign their papers)

Ref 14: I found the same info here. Finews is an independent financial news agency, according to the German Wikipedia (there is no article in English).

Ref 15: Finews also published a segment on Skaanild becoming a partner, so we can replace the allnews link with that one.

Ref 18: won't probably cut it under your criteria. This was merely to give a source to the statement about services provided but at the end of the day none of them is specific to the bank. I would not be surprised to see them listed as an unsourced statement in the private banking article: for anyone close to the industry it's like saying that the sky is blue (but then most readers are not from the industry, which is why I think this is relevant). Hopefully I'm only comparing apples and bigger apples, but the UBS article is listed as "Good" and references their own webpage to list services provided (see ref 20)

I've updated ref 30 with non-paywalled material.

Thanks again for your time, I hope to be able to email you links to PDF files today still. Christophe Leu (talk) 10:42, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Christophe Leu: I received your email. I am sorry about the delays in responding; the holidays limit my time online. I will assess the links in the email at a later date. Here are the responses to the refs mentioned in the last response:

Re: Ref 12: The concern I have is: can we verify that the person being interviewed is stating verified information? Since the person interviewed is an employee of the company, we know that their facts are not a neutral point of view. It is better to use secondary sources to verify this information. As an example, the founders of Facebook sued each other over who created the platform and disagreed on its origin. Using an interview from one of the founders would cause Wikipedia to have an incomplete or incorrect version of events. A reporter, commentating and possibly contradicting statements in an interview, gives a more neutral perspective on the events. As for the Registrar of Commerce or banks statutes, I would need to analyse those sources separately to determine if they are reliable sources for this article.

Re: Ref 13:  Done After exploring the awp website and reading their Wikipedia page, I believe that this article was written by awp and thus reliable.

Re: Ref 14:  Done

Re: Ref 15:  Done

Re: Ref 18: I haven't looked at this section. Operations sections are a bit trickier than history because we don't want it to sound promotional. I agree that listing the various services might be too much, but keep ref 18 there and I will give a closer look later.

Thanks again for your patience in adding this information. It's the holiday season so I do not expect a quick response. Please do not ruin the holidays with your friends and/or family by answering these inquiries. I will continue to assess your request later. Z1720 (talk) 02:35, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Here are more comments below. Christophe Leu has emailed me screenshots of "Bordier & Cie: Souvenirs et perspectives" so I'm going to complete the History section below:

Ref 3:  Not done That fact already has a ref, so I didn't add it.

Ref 4 & 5:  Done with some copyediting.

Ref 6:  Not done I don't think this fact is notable.

Ref 7:  Done with copyediting. I don't like "head of the bank" because it sounds like jargon but the source doesn't verify their position, so I left it in.

Ref 8:  Done with copyediting. Although I was hesitant to add this information, I think managing clients' accounts online is so commonplace now that it won't sound like promotion. Also, I think it is notable to talk about how their banking operations changed with technology.

Ref 11:  Partly done with copyediting. "accounting flexibility reasons" was not verified in the article and was too broad so I added the tax example for the benefit of changing their model.

I think the history section is complete. If there is anything else to add there, please comment below. The other sections will be assessed on a later date. Thank you for your patience. Z1720 (talk) 20:48, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Continuing the review, looking at the Operations section:

Wealth Management section:  Not done This section sounds promotional.

Asset Management:  Not done. Most of the information sounds promotional. The prose about Bordier FinLab can be reworked and added as its own section (or added as a subsidiary) but the references are not reliable sources. Ref 21's author looks like a user name, not an author's name, and the masthead only has one editor listed. Ref 22 sounds like a promotional press release, not an independent news article, so it is unreliable.

Subsidiaries section, paragraph 1:  Not done Ref 23 does not verify when the subsidiary was created or what it does.

Paragraph 2:  Not done Ref 16 is not a reliable source.

Paragraph 3:  Partly done with some copyediting. I didn't add the information from Wealth Advisor because the article did not have an author and I couldn't find a masthead on their site.

I will continue this review later. Z1720 (talk) 00:06, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Continuing the review

Paragraph 4: The author of the article is AOF. What is AOF?

Paragraph 5:  Done with some copyedits

Paragraph 6:  Done with copyedits. Ref 29 is behind a paywall so the article was sent to me in an email.

Paragraph 7:  Not done. Non-notable sponsorship. Bordier supplied money but didn't have any other role that I can find.

Introduction:  Done with some copyedits. Some information here was not included in the article so it was removed. I rewrote the introductions to reflect what is currently in the article.

Infobox: I modified the alt-text in the image per MOS:ALT

That's every section! I am going to close this ticket. Please post below if you have additional comments or references to consider (and please ping me if you want me to look at the message.) Thank you for your patience @Christophe Leu: with the amount of time it took to begin the assessment and have your request completed. Z1720 (talk) 17:30, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Z1720: Thank you very much for your review and time. AOF (Ref 21/4th paragraph of the Operations section regarding the Bordier FinLab) is Agence Option Finance (formerly Excelsior, an independant French financial news agency).

I think the Current model section should be reworded as it does not describe the actual operating model (ie, what do these agencies worldwide do?) and it is overall kind of strange to have an article describing a business without actually saying what that business is. Similarly to what's been done for UBS, Bank of America, HSBC and so on, the threshold of acceptability for sources that merely make factual statements does not need rely on peer-reviewed editing as there's no analysis attached to it. I would suggest adding a short merge of the first sentences of the originally proposed Operations subsections, e.g. The Bordier bank’s operations historically focus on private banking, including wealth management consulting, tax advice, legal advice, as well as typical banking services.[16][18] It also includes an asset management branch, in particular SICAV investment schemes (UCITS), invested in European, international, or Swiss bonds and shares.[20]

Barring this last point, I think we can indeed close the request. Kind regards and best wishes for the coming year, Christophe Leu (talk) 08:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Christophe Leu: Instead of ref 21, did you mean ref 26? Ref 26 is authored by AOF. I added the France information into the article.

I changed "Current Model" to "Structure" as that is a more accurate title for that section. For the prose you italicised: The new language is much better. I would strikeout historically; in this section we should focus on what they do today, not what they did in the past. Also, I am confused by what "typical banking services" means. Can you be more specific? Are [16], [18], and [20] the same numbered sources from your original request? 16 and 18 are not reliable sources as I cannot determine where they got their information from. I don't mind sourcing Bordier & Cie to describe their operations but I want to cite their documents, not third party websites without editorial oversight. I don't understand how ref 20 verifies the information in the sentence, as Bordier is not mentioned on the linked url. Can you clarify this or provide another source? Thanks. Z1720 (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Minor corrections

(I'm opening a new subsections as the one above is getting a bit long and cumbersome).

Hello @Z1720: and thank you for your suggestion/comments!

• Ref21/26 - yes sorry I got mixed up. All good now.
• Ref 20: One needs to click through in order to access a list and types of funds managed by Bordier. Might be a bit too technical. See next item for replacement/complement.
• Italicized suggestion on the activities: I used "historically" because those activities have been practiced by the bank ever since its debut 177 years ago (which you will agree is pretty historic): it's not fundamental, but simply makes sense in the broader context. If you would rather source the info in refs 16, 18 and 20 from the Bordier website then this page lists all business activities and can be used as reference.
• I see you did not include the picture/painting of Ami Bordier that was at the beginning of the History section. Any particular reason for that?
• My colleague noticed a couple of typos / errors in your edits that I entirely missed, sorry about that :
  • There is a difference between Private Bank and Private Banker, which is a legally defined label/certification in Swiss Law. See the Swiss Private Bankers Association article. In a nutshell, a Private Bank is a company providing banking services; a Private Banker will do the same but guarantee clients' assets with the bank owners' own (personal) money. There are plenty of private banks in Switzerland, but only one handful of private bankers left. Bordier is a Private Banker, and thus the text should be clear about it from the leade (very first sentence) to the last paragraph of the History section.
  • typos/clarifications:
    • History/1st para: going through the book whose scans I've sent you I've realized that the founder was Jaques Reverdin, not Jacques (modern spelling). I guess modernized spelling is ok, but if we want to be accurate then the c has to go (see also the DHS entry, very last sentence).
    • History/4th para, 2nd sentence: it's Gaëtan, not Grégoire who joined in 1994 as the fifth generation. Grégoire joined in 1997. Evrard in 2010 (not 2011). Also because of the legal implications of the Private Banker status mentioned above, it is important that the limited and unlimited partnership status not be conflated with one another. The proposal we had written had no ambiguity about who did what (and indicated Poncet returning to limited status as another partner rose): unless you have a strong issue with the wording that was initially proposed I would suggest we simply reuse it.
    • History/Last paragraph: not sure how we went from our proposed text

      The institution also maintained its status of “private banker”, which makes it the only institution in Romandy to have kept this historic status, and one of the last members of the Swiss Private Bankers Association, along with four other banks from German-speaking Switzerland

      to

      "The institution maintained its status of “private banker” the only German-speaking bank in Switzerland to have this".

      Romandy is the French-speaking part of Switzerland: as mentioned in the initial text there is only one Francophone Private Banker left, and four German-speaking ones. I'd recommend again reusing the initial wording.

Thank you, Christophe Leu (talk) 16:56, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@Christophe Leu: My responses are below:

Bullet 2: Refs needs to be as simple to find. It is better to link to the specific page, if possible.

Bullet 3: We can add their historical banking practices to earlier sections. For example, if they introduced personal banking in 1900, and it is cited, then we can consider adding it in. Historically is too broad of a term and the section is talking about their current practices so we should avoid information about what they "historically" do.

Bullet 4: Whoops, forgot to add the portrait! I don't like the sandwiching happening with the picture and the infobox, but I'd rather include the image now and let another editor fix this by expanding the lede later.

Typos 1: I see the distinction between private bank and private banking (of which the latter is a redirect of private banker) I think I have fixed all instances of this.

Typos 2: Since DHS is recommended by Wikipedia:WikiProject Switzerland I think they are reliable and I'll use them as a source. Information added.

Typos 3: I'm re-reading page 137, the source used in your draft, and neither Gaetan nor Gregoire are mentioned. Do we have the right page numbers to verify this information? The source says Evard joined as a new partner in 2010. Do you have a source to say he joined in 2011?

Typos 4: I should have put French, not German. I used [2] and I could only include information that is verified in that source, which involved rewriting your text. I will probably make mistakes, which is why I appreciate when others check my edits. I didn't include Romandy because it wasn't mentioned in the Bilan or Le Temps [3] sources. If I missed the Romandy reference, please post the original sentence in French so I can find it in the source. I am avoiding the word "historic" as I consider it a WP:PEACOCK word with little meaning (we can't quantify when something is "historic" and the word implies greatness or higher status). I'd consider putting it in the article if "historic" or "historically" has a different definition that is important to include (perhaps a legal definition). I don't think it's notable to include the Swiss Private Bankers Association in this part; if they are the last French-speaking private banker in Switzerland, I can assume they are the only French-speaking bank in the Swiss Private Bankers Association.

Those are my notes! Please post below if you have any questions or comments. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@Z1720: thanks for the fixes, and answers below!

• Bullet 3/adding activities: "historically" is not that important a word, we can obviously drop it. But the activities need to be indicated in a broader "Operations" section that can merge the current Structure (which actually does not explain the group's structure) and Subsidiaries. I would suggest as intro The Bordier bank’s operations focus on private banking, including wealth management consulting, tax advice, legal advice, as well as typical banking services. It also includes an asset management branch.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Bordier Switzerland|url=https://www.bordier.swiss/en/bordier-switzerland/|access-date=2021-01-06|website=Bordier & Cie|language=en-US}}</ref> and then simply follow with everything that's already there.
• Regarding Evrard 2011/Gaëtan 1994/Grégoire 1997: Most independant sources I found got mixed up with the partnership levels or jumped to conclusions (e.g. "sent to Singapore to set up a branch in 2010 = became Partner", whereas things happened a lot more sequentially). Can we simply use the bank's website for these dates? This is as factual as can be and this chart here lists them all neatly (chart is on Commons, too, though I don't think it would fit with the article).
• Romandy: I started drafting an answer as to why Romandy is much more significant than francophone, but that quickly turned into a booklength dissertation about Switzerland and its quirks... Let us say that Le Temps clearly states "the four others are based in Suisse alémanique": the broader context and implicit statement here is that of the opposition between Geneva/Romandy vs. Zürich/Basel as banking centers (ie geographies rather than languages) but I realize it takes a Swiss person to see this as obvious and I apologize for this. Either way, the last paragraph has a kind of repeat around the "last French-speaking" bit (1st and last sentences): if only for clarity of style I'd recommend replacing the first one with Romandy: ref.14 (Bilan) that is attached to it does state "the group is the last member of the club in Suisse romande".

Looking forward to your comments, Christophe Leu (talk) 09:02, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Christophe Leu:: Here are some comments

Bullet 3: I don't like this proposed phrasing because it sounds too promotional, and having the company's website as the citation is not ideal. Yes, it's OK to use primary sources in Wikipedia articles, but secondary sources are much prefered. The source is Bordier describing themselves and what they do; descriptions can be subjective and it is hard for anyone to describe themselves neutrally, thus causing problems of bias and making this a poor source to use. If there are secondary sources (like a business journal article or academic papers) that describe the operations I would consider using that.

Evard/Gaetan/Gregoire: Yes, I will use the Bordier source for information. I would prefer press releases though as it's more official and it gives us a source date (and sometimes an author) which helps readers trust the source.

Romandy: Thank you for not doing a dissertation on Romandy. My french is not great and used Google Translate to help me and they translated "Suisse romande" to "French-speaking Switzerland. English Wikipedia redirects "Suisse romande" to Romandy, and when I went to the French Wikipedia I discovered they call it "Suisse romande". Based on this I believe the author (writing in French) was using "Suisse romande" as a synonym to Romandy and will thus include it in the article. If a more knowledgable editor on this subject comes along and reverts the page, I hope they will discuss it on the talk page.

I think we are almost finished! Only a couple more points to fix up I think. Z1720 (talk) 21:36, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Z1720:, I agree we're almost there! Regarding the activities, I am not sure how the phrasing proposed can be construed as promotional (and honestly any PR would be a lot more promotional): I merely listed some of the services that are offered on the page (without any of the very promotional "tailor made", "efficient", etc.). I have limited the selection to those that are more typical of private banking services, all of which have a corresponding Wikipedia article:

The Bordier bank’s operations focus on private banking, including wealth management consulting, tax advice, legal advice, family services, as well as typical banking services. It also includes an asset management branch.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Authorised banks and securities firms|url=https://www.finma.ch/en/~/media/finma/dokumente/bewilligungstraeger/pdf/beh.pdf?la=en|access-date=2021-01-07|website=[[Swiss Financial Market Supervisory Authority]]|language=en-US}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Bordier Switzerland|url=https://www.bordier.swiss/en/bordier-switzerland/|access-date=2021-01-06|website=Bordier & Cie|language=en-US}}</ref>

Note: I have added a link to the Swiss Financial Market Authority listing Bordier as "Private bankers who do not sollicit funds from the public" (page 6). I honestly can't provide more quality source than that (I have put the refs as no wiki so the whole section is easier to copy/paste/edit). Christophe Leu (talk) 08:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Christophe Leu: I took some time to respond because I wanted to look at this with fresh eyes. I can see where I was being extremely strict above, but I hope to get the best description of the bank's services that conform to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. FINMA is a great source because it is a Swiss government body. I propose the following wording: "Bordier & Cie operates as private bankers.(REF FINMA) Their services focus on wealth management but also include tax advice, financial planning, and family services.(REF [4]) The bank also has an asset management branch.(REF [5])" The REFs in brackets are where the citations will be inserted. Would this work? Z1720 (talk) 03:50, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Z1720: Sounds good to me, let's do it!

I also need to apologize but I took it upon myself to fix the Gaëtan/Grégoire thing directly as it was disturbing to look at. I then realized that the who's who of non-family limited/unlimited partners was probably not so notable (except for Poncet, who was the first non-family partner) and tended to complicate things a little too much. I removed the corresponding sentence entirely (Juvet retired at the end of 2020 so his addition was either moot or would need additional discussions on how to phrase/source it). I would see this as a fix rather than pure CoI, but feel free to revert and do a similar correction by yourself if think it important to make the point. The Leadership section could also probably go entirely (and be moved to a "key people" field in the infobox) as I see other private banks have no such sections. Christophe Leu (talk) 11:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Christophe Leu: as stated in WP:COIEDIT, editors with a COI "are strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly" (their emphasis). The changes were also marked as a minor edit, which is reserved for small changes to an article (like fixing a single typo), not removing almost 1000 bytes of data. As we are discussing the changes on the talk page, I would appreciate it if changes were proposed on the talk page instead so that a non-COI editor can assess the proposal, like you did with your proposed changes above. There is no deadline on Wikipedia and a couple of extra days with too much information is not a terrible thing.

I would propose that anyone who has ever been a "Managing Partners with unlimited personal liability" (which, if I interpret their website correctly, are the people at the top of Bordier's corporate structure) be included in the article. I will agree to remove Juvet, Lagnaux and Caldana because, from my understanding of the text, they were never at the top of the company.

As for my proposed sentence above, I have added it to the "Structure" section as the second paragraph. Please assess and post below if other changes need to be made. Z1720 (talk) 23:34, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Z1720:, sorry for the long silence, I had a couple of sick days.

Two quick typos:  DoneHistory/4th paragraph: Gaëtan -> Gaétan (wrong accent)

 Done Structure/2nd paragraph: but also include -> including (services listed are examples of wealth management, not on top of it)

I also apologize for now having to walk back my earlier comment - limited partners should be included in the Leadership section as they are management (and in any case I noticed that ref.13 in the text is an internet archive link that point to an outdated list which would have to be updated - below is a more recent link from the same source). Rather than having the same ref being called eight times (once for each partner) I suggest having a short introductory sentence using two sources that have been accepted ("swiss private" (ref.13) and "Le Temps June 2020 (ref.11))

Bordier's management is divided between limited and unlimited partners, the latter being personally liable for the bank's activities

Managing Partners with unlimited personal liability

• Grégoire Bordier
• Evrard Bordier
• Christian Skaanild

Managing partners with limited liability

• Gaétan Bordier
• Alessandro Caldana
• Michel Juvet
• Patrice Lagnaux
• Pierre Poncet

References

"Le Temps June 2020" returns an error here but it is ref11's name in the article so should be fine when used there. Other than that I noticed that Turks and Caicos Islands have disappeared from the list of branches in the leade section (ref: here (T&C Chamber of Commerce) and/or here (local newspaper))

And then I think we will be done! Christophe Leu (talk) 15:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Christophe Leu: I hope you are feeling better. I have corrected the typos above and added Turks and Caicos to the lede. I also removed wikilinks per MOS:OL to commonly known locations like Uruguay and Paris.

For the unlimited liability vs limited liability, does one group of people have more decision making power than the other? For example, a VP of Finance might report to a CFO. Does one group report to the other in the chain of command? I really don't want to use the Swiss Private Bankers website, but I'm willing to use Bordier's website for this information (as I do not think the company would lie about their current corporate structure). However, Bordier's website lists Juvet, Lagnaux and Caldana as Limited Partners, but not Gaétan Bordier or Poncet. Why not? Z1720 (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot @Z1720:. It's not an easy answer, to be honest. Operationnally, there is no difference between limited and unlimited partners for the clients/departments they manage. You nevertheless could say that some are more equal to others because unlimited partners have their own assets at stake. But because of the nature of Private banking that involves a lot of personal relationships with clients, formerly unlimited partners that scale down to limited can also be taking a back seat in terms of management but retain partnership because they're not fully retired from the business (Juvet made the move on Jan 1st, so it makes sense having him still listed on the corporate website). Basically you end up with a kind of structure reflecting increasing (Caldana, Lagnaux) or decreasing (Gaétan Bordier, Juvet, Poncet) levels of responsibility under the same "limited" status. A partnership is not run as vertically as a regular CEO > C-level structure one is used to seeing in public companies.

Not sure it is very clear so I'll sum it up thus: the Bordier website tells how the bank is run, the Swiss Private Bankers website tells how it is structured (and I would advise keeping with the latter). Christophe Leu (talk) 14:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)