Talk:Bob Mann (American football)

GA Collaboration

Cbl62, I figured I would move this to the talk page to keep things in one noticeable place. Feel free to add any to-do items, etc. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:22, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this, Gonzo. Will do. Cbl62 (talk) 17:35, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Cbl62, I know it has been a while, but I have finally gotten around to this article. I want to get through the final push to get it to WP:GA. Are you still interested in collaborating? If so, one of the biggest helps would be adding links to the current references that don't have them. I have added Newspapers.com links to almost all of the refs you added years ago, but right now I can't find links for refs #4, #27, #29, #33, and #48. If these can't be found, I may try to replace them with other sources. Let me know! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:51, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Repinging Cbl62. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:56, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Happy to help. Should have some time to focus on it in December. Cbl62 (talk) 22:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Cbl62, awesome! Feel free to add to the todo list below. I've done a good amount to it the last week, but mostly focused on sourcing, photos, and formatting. Probably could use a good read through and fresh eyes! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:52, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Cbl62, I have been able to find links or replacement references for all refs except #4 and #55. Would you be able to try to track links down for these? Both have direct quotes and wouldn't be necessarily easy to remove or replace. We obviously don't necessarily need links for the citations to be acceptable, but I would really prefer to have them, if possible. Thanks! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:58, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Cbl62, I went ahead and nominated the article for GA. I will add a note that you are co-nominating the article. If you have time to copyedit/review the article, that would be great. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:48, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Will do. Wrapping up another project and will then turn my attention to Mr. Mann. Cbl62 (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Cbl62, everything is looking real good! Thanks for all your edits. I think if GA review goes well, we could have a good chance of getting it through WP:FAC, if you would be interested. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:50, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Sorry it took me so long to get around to this. Cbl62 (talk) 22:06, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

No problem, WP:GAN takes so long these days I figured you would have plenty of time to jump on it. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:08, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Some areas of concern remain. First, we have nothing about the 15-year period from 1955-1969. Second, he was a prominent criminal defense attorney for 35 year (handling high-profile cases including the defense of Coleman Young's brother-in-law), yet we only have a couple sentences about his legal career. It would be good to beef up this area. Cbl62 (talk) 22:09, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll start searching. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:16, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

the discussion part of WP:BRD

Editor Gonzo fan2007 reverted my edit with this edit summary: actively working on this article; deceptive edit summary as removing {{Open access}} isn't "cite repair". The initial purpose of my edit was this broken cs1|2 citation template which put this article is in Category:CS1 errors: invalid parameter value. Once here, I noticed that the cs1|2 templates that link to Newspapers.com, Google News Archive, and Google books all had {{open access}} in |via=.

Open access has a specific meaning (see the article for the nitty-gritty of that) but the tldr is: reuse of academic publications. In this article, {{open access}} is misapplied to newspaper articles and to a book where there is no possibility of reuse. In cs1|2 citation templates, sources linked by a url parameter are presumed to be free-to-read unless otherwise noted (as this article's New York Times citation). Since {{open access}} is misapplied in the cs1|2 citation templates here, I removed these templates. So yeah, 'cite repair'.

As an aside, this short cite (sfn) does not link to a full-length citation. Needs cite repair.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:16, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Trappist the monk, appreciate you pointing out the sfn error and CS1 error. I restored your fixes of those.

In your initial edit, you also removed some blank fields that I add to some citations (as I am actively working on getting the urls for these). I very well may be unaware of some guideline on blank fields in citations templates, but considering they don't change the appearance or functionality to readers, I don't see any reason to remove them. If I can't find the urls for these sources, I will be replacing them with other sources. So by the time this article gets nominated to WP:GA, everything should be properly filled in.

Regarding the {{Open access}} template, after reading your links I can see that the template isn't necessarily being used per the documentation. That said, it's use is to identify the difference between linking to a clipping of a newspaper (which is freely accessible) at Newspapers.com versus linking to the entire newspaper page (which requires a subscription). Thus it seems to be a suitable use for the template that really doesn't negatively impact anything. That said, if it bugs you enough, I won't revert your removal of the template on this page or others I have written with its use.

As a corollary, I brought Packers sweep to WP:FAC last year and it was on the Main Page this year. No one touched the {{Open access}} template usage, which is one of the reasons I have never questioned its use. Those type of picky issues usually get caught during those review processes. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:40, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Umm, I did not fix the sfn link.

Yep, I deleted empty parameters because in the preponderance of cs1|2 templates throughout en.wiki, where there are empties: once empty, always empty so they are just clutter.

it's use is to identify the difference between linking to a clipping of a newspaper. There are, I have seen them, article titles linked to some 'thing' at Newspapers.com that lie behind the paywall. For those cases, |url-access=subscription is the appropriate parameter to use because it places the red lock icon directly adjacent to the article title; in cs1|2 we highlight the abnormal. You can, if you think it important, add |type=clipping:

{{Cite news | first = Bill| last = Dow| title = Mann pioneer player in NFL: Part 2| date = January 11, 2002| access-date = November 22, 2019| url-status=live |newspaper = [[Detroit Free Press]]| page = 72| url = https://www.newspapers.com/clip/24262964/mann_end_was_one_of_1st_black_lions/| archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20191122153540/https://www.newspapers.com/clip/24262964/mann_end_was_one_of_1st_black_lions/| archive-date = November 22, 2019| via = [[Newspapers.com]] |type=clipping}}

Dow, Bill (January 11, 2002). "Mann pioneer player in NFL: Part 2". Detroit Free Press (clipping). p. 72. Archived from the original on November 22, 2019. Retrieved November 22, 2019 – via Newspapers.com.

Another aside, shouldn't this citation use |page=8D instead of |page=72?

There was discussion about the {{open access}} and {{free access}} templates (in relation to Newspapers.com in particular) that started at:

Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2018 December 18 § Use of "via" and "free access" symbol in Newspapers.com citations

and continued at:

Wikipedia talk:Newspapers.com § Use of "via" and "free access" symbol in Newspapers.com citations

You may find these informative.

I cannot speak for your FAC reviewers; en.wiki is a very complex organism so it is not at all surprising to me that there are reviewers who are unaware of discussions that take place in the eddies and backwaters.

Yeah, {{open access}} is not appropriate here so I shall remove those templates.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:52, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

{{Football stats}}

Jweiss11, per WP:BRD, I reverted your addition of {{Football stats}} yesterday. You reverted my revert, so I returned it to the status quo and now am bringing it to the talk page to discuss. I don't want to edit war over an external link template. That said, I have been working on this article for a while and have it nominated with Cbl62 at WP:GAN. I feel like this is an editorial decision that can be made by those that have been improving the article and bringing it through an editorial process. There is no requirement that the template has to be used on every football page, and quite frankly I don't find it that useful, especially when PFR and NFL are linked throughout the article and in the infobox. I'm not going to go around actively removing the template from articles you edit, so mutually, I would prefer you leave it be when editors who are working on an article remove the template. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:54, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

This isn't a Bob Mann-specific issue. It affect thousands of articles, so I will bring it up at WikiProject National Football League. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:56, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Jweiss11, happy to defer to consensus at WP:NFL. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:03, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bob Mann (American football)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MWright96 (talk · contribs) 18:19, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Going to review. MWright96 (talk) 18:19, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks MWright96! Cbl62 and I collaborated on this one, so we both will hopefully be able to work through any comments you have. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:06, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Seconded. Cbl62 (talk) 19:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Lead

• Don't believe that African American needs to be linked per MOS:OVERLINK
• "He signed with the Green Bay Packers near the end of the 1950 NFL season and was the Packers leading receiver in 1951." - repetition of the word "Packers"
  • All done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Early years

• "His father, Dr. William Mann," - don't use titles such as Dr. per MOS:DOCTOR
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:04, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Hampton Institute

• "He joined the school's football team," - wikilink the word football to college football
• Wikilink touchdown for non-football readers
  • Both done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:06, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

University of Michigan

• Wikilink scrimmage to Line of scrimmage for those unfamiliar with football
  • I reworded instead of linking. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:06, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

1948 season

• "Although a ban on African American players in the NFL was denied by team owners at the time, no African American" - try to avoid using the phrase African American twice in one sentence
• "Mann appeared in all 12 games for the Lions, but was not included in the starting lineup in any of the Lions' games" - similar issue as above
• "it took many years for African Americans players" - typo; should be African American
• "He had played two years of basketball at Hampton Institute but did not play basketball at Michigan." - but not at Michigan.

All done. Cbl62 (talk) 15:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

1949 season

• Wikilink exhibition game for non-sports readers
• "Kerbawy ran back through the play-by-play account of the game and discovered she was right." - the sentence is too closely worded to the UP source and will need to be reworded per MOS:LIMITED
• The acronyms of United Press should be included in parentheses

All done. Cbl62 (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Salary dispute

• "Adding fuel to the negotiations," - not so sure that this is an encyclopedic statement. Better to reword it so that it is more neutral to be safe
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:58, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Charges of blackballing

• "the Lions had asked him to take a 20% pay cut." - the % symbol should be replaced per MOS:PERCENT
• "The Lions' response to Mann's charge was a statement that they felt Mann was too small" - he
• "Mann filed a lawsuit against the NFL based on his belief that NFL owners" - close repetition of the word "NFL"
  • All done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:59, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

1950–1951

• "he appeared in the Packers' final home game against the San Francisco 49ers, becoming the first African-American to play for the Packers." - try not to repeat the same word in the same sentence
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:21, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

1952–1955

• "who elicited comparisons to Packers' great Don Hutson," - great is not netural and will need to be removed as well as the sentence undergo a minor rephrasing
• "Mann, who "was open all afternoon as the Bears chased Howton"" - according to whom?
  • Done both. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:56, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Race

• "the 252-pound Afflis" - use the {{convert}} template on the text in bold
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:23, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Those are the issues I found during my readthrough. Will put on hold for the time being. MWright96 (talk) 13:16, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Cbl62, it looks like everything has been addressed. Is there anything else you want to address before notifying MWrright96? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:05, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I will do a further read-through later today. Good teamwork. Thanks again. Cbl62 (talk) 22:16, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Awesome. Feel free to notify MWrright96 when you are finished with your review. I completed my review. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:30, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

@MWright96: Thanks for your good comments. Ready for you to take another look. Cbl62 (talk) 05:51, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Now promoting to GA class MWright96 (talk) 11:25, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Pre-FAC tinkering

Okay then, some thoughts:

• try and avoid one-sentence paragraphs (e.g. bottom line in lead). See if you can either embellish them or tack them onto another paragraph.
  • Combined a few short paragraphs. Everything else is either long enough or is shorter because that is all that is available to be said. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
    • Yeah I figured that might be the case. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:51, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• The Early years section is a bit slim - can any other details be added to give some insight into his life? Siblings etc.? What did he study at Hampton?
  • Cbl62, let me know if you have any insight on whether this information is available. You have been more involved with the source material than I. I will look into it as well. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:20, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Casliber, I went through all of the sources and did not find any additional information to add. Unless Cbl62 finds something new, I would say at this point the section has everything that can be added based on available sources/info. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:31, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I will have a look. Cbl62 (talk) 18:17, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

• At the time, Detroit coach Bo McMillin, who had just been hired by the Lions - seems a bit wordy, how about "At the time, incoming/newly-appointed Detroit coach Bo McMillin,"
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:16, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Even after the ban ended in the NFL, it took many years for African American players to be given the same opportunities as white players. - reads oddly as the ban's existence has been denied, maybe reword somehow? "Even after African American players began appearing in NFL playing rosters, it took many years for them to be given the same opportunities as white players." or something similar?
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:16, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Despite his role as a "backup," - surely doesn't need to be in quotes...?
  • Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:16, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Do we know why the Lions sought a pay cut?
  • Added the Lions' reason. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:13, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• I am going to add one thing here, as well. Cbl62, do you know about the discrepancy of Mann's high school? In the Early years section, it says West Street High School, but in the infobox it says JT Barber? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:21, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Overall, the article is looking in pretty good shape and I think is within striking distance of FA status. (I mean, it'd be nice if there is some more biographical information but maybe there just isn't, in which case the article is big enough anyway) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Casliber for the review! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:57, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Cbl62, any idea on the high school question above? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:41, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm ... not sure about the reason for that discrepancy but can run some searches. Cbl62 (talk) 23:29, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Cbl62, any ideas? I don't mind running through the sources on the high school, but I wanted to see if something came to mind before I did that. Let me know. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, Gonzo, haven't had a chance to look at this. Been busy with another project. Will come back to this before too long. Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 15 April 2020 (UTC)